Ukraine Conflict - "Politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed"

[Valsuelm]

9 hours ago, Mamoulian War said:

It is unimaginable for most of the civilized people. But Ukrainians stopped being afraid long time ago. And this how they see it after this morning. For them, these attacks are just an evidence, that they are winning

The idea that Ukranians aren't afraid is nonsense. Everyone I ever communicate with in both Ukraine and Russia is afraid, whether they're for the war or against it, for Russia or against it.

About the only people who aren't afraid at this point are the armchair quarterbacks mindlessly cheering for the war to escalate.

Anyone thinking that a few dozen missiles being lobbed their way for the first time in a significant manner by a nation that has many thousands of them on hand is evidence that they're winning is a special kind of delusional.

Stop getting caught up in the day to day propaganda, and go look at a map. Ukraine already lost....

[BruceVC]

16 minutes ago, Valsuelm said:

The conflict in Ukraine predates Russia moving troops in earlier this year, by many years.

I don't know of a single politician that is a head of state of a nation that isn't a liar, though Putin is objectively a lot more honest and competent than most, at least when commenting on anything at the international level. This has been true for well over a decade.

Insofar as where I get my information. Primary sources whenever possible. Example: I don't take CNN's word for what Putin or whomever says, I actually take the effort to find the speech/interview and read/watch/listen to it myself. (warning: if you do this, you'll discover that most of the western media lies, all the time, about everything)

I also check a large variety of sources, including some which I'm sure you read. However when I check such publications as the WaPo, CNN, NYTimes, et al I'm more interested in what lies they're telling the gullible serfs than using them as reliable sources of information.

A very important question to ask yourself whenever you're consuming any media is 'Why am I seeing this?', 'Why is this being shown to people?', or 'Cui Bono?'. Few seem capable of asking this question objectively, and instead take almost everything they see and read at face value (if they bother to learn anything at all).

An incomplete list of information sources (on a variety of topics) that I've used within the last week or so (in no particular order):

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CNN
AnandTech
FoxNews
TechRadar
RealClearPolitics
Newsmax
American Greatness
One American News Network
TomsHardware
Drudge Report (and random articles linked from there)
RT
MSNBC
NYTimes
Washington Post
ABC
NBC
CBS
PBS
Aljazeera
en.kremlin.ru
this forum
Tim Pool
Steve Turley
The Young Turks
Democracy Now
Der Spiegel
Mark Dice
Infowars
Dr. Berg
Dr Bergman
Church Militant
Linus Tech Tips
Redacted
Red Ice TV
Press for Truth
Computing Forever
Black Pigeons Speaks / Felix Rex
Guns & Gadgets
Gerald Celente
Rob Braxman
Ivor Cummins
Tony Heller
The Wall Street Journal
UCTV
Chris Hedges
The Highwire with Del Bigtree
Dr. Sten Ekberg
The Corbett Report
Richard Grove / Grand Theft World (about the only one on this list that I will say is almost always a very good source of information, but at a different level than most of the other sources even attempt)

 

Do you consider Putin a good leader, is he someone who you would support if you lived in Russia?

And just to be clear  what I mean, he is an autocrat who has eroded or controlled most normal freedoms within Russia that include a  free and independent  media, the right to protest and the right to vote in  free and fair elections 

But these things dont concern everyone which is why Im asking you?

 

[BruceVC]

3 minutes ago, Valsuelm said:

The idea that Ukranians aren't afraid is nonsense. Everyone I ever communicate with in both Ukraine and Russia is afraid, whether they're for the war or against it, for Russia or against it.

About the only people who aren't afraid at this point are the armchair quarterbacks mindlessly cheering for the war to escalate.

Anyone thinking that a few dozen missiles being lobbed their way for the first time in a significant manner by a nation that has many thousands of them on hand is evidence that they're winning is a special kind of delusional.

Stop getting caught up in the day to day propaganda, and go look at a map. Ukraine already lost....

I think he means its not going to deter the Ukrainian war effort and its not, they will continue to fight against the unprovoked Russian invasion 

[Mamoulian War]

Hmm, I just found this yesterdays tweet. 

One bill is from june, one from july, one from september. Is here anyone from US, who has an insight what is going on with these bills?

[Valsuelm]

6 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Do you consider Putin a good leader, is he someone who you would support if you lived in Russia?

And just to be clear  what I mean, he is an autocrat who has eroded or controlled most normal freedoms within Russia that include a  free and independent  media, the right to protest and the right to vote in  free and fair elections 

But these things dont concern everyone which is why Im asking you?

 

Relative to most 'leaders' on planet earth in the modern era, Putin is a great leader. But the bar is very low considering no small number of 'leaders' in the world have been actively selling their nations out for many decades now. Putin is many things, but he's not treasonous. He generally represents Russia and Russian interests very well at the international level.

Would I support Putin if I lived in Russia? In his actions at the international level of politics, generally yes. In his domestic policies, I would certainly part with him on at least a few major issues. I am not Russian, nor do I live there, nor do I have enough good solid information regarding the internal politics of Russia to be able to say with any certainty if there's anyone there that I would support at all. In my own nation, the politics of which I am very familiar with, there is almost no one in politics at the national level that I support even a little, let alone fully (as it's almost invariably nothing but corrupt, evil, incompetent, and/or naive people in that game at this point, unfortunately).

Ugly truth: the Russian media is generally at least as 'free and independent' as most of the media in the west is. Putin isn't really responsible for eroding any freedoms there, as there wasn't too much freedom to begin with. I'm frankly a bit more concerned with the censorship and lies in the western media than I am with such things in Russia. I don't support such things anywhere, but I'm not going to concern myself too much with what goes on in someone else's backyard when the **** is piled high in my own backyard..

 

To add to my previous post, here is a decent conversation that touches on some of the inherent problems with 'embedded journalists' (long story short, they are generally very untrustworthy sources of information).

 

[Valsuelm]

31 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

Hmm, I just found this yesterdays tweet. 

One bill is from june, one from july, one from september. Is here anyone from US, who has an insight what is going on with these bills?

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/4848?r=1&s=1
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-resolution/1205
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/8568?r=13&s=1

These bills are generally just floating around. They probably won't be voted on, at least not without a massive escalation from what we've already seen. There's fortunately not the political will for this nonsense, and the tide is moving in other direction (more and more people are beginning to catch up with reality).

Generally you can just search the web for the name of bill X, and you'll get information on it. Congress.gov a great place to see just who the Evils and incompetents are.

Tip: Most anything Lindsey Graham ever champions is evil, especially when we're talking about international politics. This treasonous lackey for the banking cartel has a penthouse reserved for him on one of the deeper planes of hell, likely down the hall from McCain and Bush Sr.. Like a broken clock he's right sometimes, but usually even then he's just pretending.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Valsuelm

[Lexx]

Funny how you are away for 3 years just to come back to only post in the Ukraine thread as a russian shill. Really makes you wonder.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Lexx

[Mamoulian War]

28 minutes ago, Valsuelm said:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/4848?r=1&s=1
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-resolution/1205
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/8568?r=13&s=1

These bills are generally just floating around. They probably won't be voted on, at least not without a massive escalation from what we've already seen. There's fortunately not the political will for this nonsense, and the tide is moving in other direction (more and more people are beginning to catch up with reality).

Generally you can just search the web for the name of bill X, and you'll get information on it. Congress.gov a great place to see just who the Evils and incompetents are.

Tip: Most anything Lindsey Graham ever champions is evil, especially when we're talking about international politics. This treasonous lackey for the banking cartel has a penthouse reserved for him on one of the deeper planes of hell, likely down the hall from McCain and Bush Sr.. Like a broken clock he's right sometimes, but usually even then he's just pretending.

With all the respect due, I have asked for someone with an insight. And you’ve already proven, you hardly have one

[bugarup]

I think Valsuelm is broadcasting from a parallel universe so I'm just going to enjoy my free live science fiction experience without getting engaged in arguing. After all, I know nothing about the world he lives in.

[BruceVC]

13 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Imagine being such a russian shill.

@Valsuelm

Im glad you responded but I disagree with you  on lots of things that include you cant separate Putin and his autocratic  leadership, which undermines normal  freedoms that exist in the US like the right to protest and the right to criticize any war, from the invasion of Ukraine

They are inextricably connected because this is Putins War and his dysfunctional and sociopathic personality is a huge  part of the unprovoked invasion of Ukraine and the war crimes committed by the Russian military just make things worse

You will find very little sympathy or resonance on this forum for Putin and his invasion 

 

[Chilloutman]

''Ugly truth: the Russian media is generally at least as 'free and independent' as most of the media in the west is. Putin isn't really responsible for eroding any freedoms there, as there wasn't too much freedom to begin with. I'm frankly a bit more concerned with the censorship and lies in the western media than I am with such things in Russia. I don't support such things anywhere, but I'm not going to concern myself too much with what goes on in someone else's backyard when the **** is piled high in my own backyard..''

 

Putin literally cut Russia of internet (without VPN) yet Russia does not censor... and what they say on their 'media' is hilarious. It would be shame if we would missed it

[pmp10]

2 hours ago, Mamoulian War said:

Hmm, I just found this yesterdays tweet. 

One bill is from june, one from july, one from september. Is here anyone from US, who has an insight what is going on with these bills?

The 'state sponsor of terror' ones were a 'No' just a month ago.

[Zoraptor]

8 hours ago, Elerond said:

Poor aim does not explain why missiles hit tens of kilometers away from any civilian infrastructure. Even if you make assumption that Russian's targeting systems are ****, you still would hit closer to the target. 

Yeah, I think that claim needs a big Post Proof or Retract.

I'm not particularly familiar with Ukrainian cities, but it would be quite literally impossible to actually hit part of a New Zealand city tens of km away from civilian infrastructure- and our cities are very low density, unlike Ukrainian ones where even fairly small towns have highrises (well, midrises I guess. Lots of 5+ stories anyway).  It would be impossible to hit a city even 10km away from civilian infrastructure and specifically, stuff that would be legitimate military targets via dual use- electricity substations, transformers, rail (lol, blowing up our rail would almost be a net benefit), bridges etc. New Zealand's military is a joke and not part of an active war, but most of our cities have military bases within tens of km too- eg Papakura military base south Auckland, Whenuapai (West Auckland) and Devonport (central Auckland); Burnside military base Christchurch and well, Wellington is the capital.

5 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

Seems, per NYT, that it was Ukrainians orchestrating the Crimea bridge car bombing. 

------

A senior Ukrainian official corroborated Russian reports that Ukraine was behind the attack. The official, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of a government ban on discussing the blast, added that Ukraine's intelligence services had orchestrated the explosion, using a bomb loaded onto a truck being driven across the bridge

 

It was unclear if the driver of the truck, who died in the blast, was aware there were explosives inside

'Funniest' thing has been watching desperate attempts to make it not a suicide- or worse homicide, if the driver was unaware- truck bomb and to avoid the term completely. Imagine an article on a truck bomb from an arab or muslim source not mentioning the term 'suicide attack' once. Guess suicide attacks are only carried out by brown people with bad religions.

The whole thing is much like that attack on the prison. Get a bunch of mostly unnamed experts to say that HiMARS are incapable of being incendiary. Despite having a load of aluminium powder specifically added in order to enhance incendiary effect...

That way you get the BBC article on how the Kerch Bridge attack happened. Not only no mention of 'suicide attack', but an expert whose main aim seems to be to work back from the conclusion that it was unmanned. It's not from under the bridge sunshine, you can see it didn't immediately collapse so you'd get deflection if it were. The damage is where the truck was, and deflected down on the right side with the raised 'railing' destroyed wholesale, exactly where the truck was. It's detonated over a weak point to cause it to collapse from, for want of a better term, cantilever stress.

Of course, people do rather like to mention that drone that washed up in Crimea earlier as a potential candidate, kind of, including that BBC article. While it clearly wasn't actually a mantas t-12 the size (~1x3.5m) seems pretty similar, and the warhead on the t-12 is a staggering 65kg. Of course, if you actively stated that that explosion was caused by 65kg of explosive everyone would think you were a gibbering moron who must have been lucky to have written the sequence of words down correctly; but you can certainly imply it was without mentioning the warhead size...

5 hours ago, Mamoulian War said:

Someone was suggesting here few times that trusting “unnamed” officials giving their opinion to mass-media is not the brightest thing to do.

Absolutely. I agree with the gist of the NYT article personally, but 'unnamed source' is never convincing unless there's corroborating evidence as well.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Zoraptor

[Valsuelm]

1 hour ago, bugarup said:

I think Valsuelm is broadcasting from a parallel universe so I'm just going to enjoy my free live science fiction experience without getting engaged in arguing. After all, I know nothing about the world he lives in.

I live on planet earth, and so do you. So if you know nothing about the world I live in.... well.. you're in the majority. And because this majority exists, evil people are able to flourish.

 

1 hour ago, Mamoulian War said:

With all the respect due, I have asked for someone with an insight. And you’ve already proven, you hardly have one

Says someone who either can't be bothered to use a search engine or doesn't know how to...

  Don't worry, I won't do your homework for you again.

[rjshae]

6 hours ago, Mamoulian War said:

Hmm, I just found this yesterdays tweet. 

One bill is from june, one from july, one from september. Is here anyone from US, who has an insight what is going on with these bills?

The problem there is (I believe) it would require the US to break off diplomatic relations with Russia, which isn't necessarily a good idea even with a brutal Putin in charge. Yes the Russian military is committing Nazi-like war crimes left and right, but some day this war will end and then what do we do? Better to keep a minimum lifeline open, I think.

[BruceVC]

5 hours ago, rjshae said:

The problem there is (I believe) it would require the US to break off diplomatic relations with Russia, which isn't necessarily a good idea even with a brutal Putin in charge. Yes the Russian military is committing Nazi-like war crimes left and right, but some day this war will end and then what do we do? Better to keep a minimum lifeline open, I think.

Or the US breaks ties until Putin is gone and there is a more rational person in charge?I think we underestimate how a single leader  can influence a country and how other countries engage with that country look at Mugabe (Zimbabwe), Franco (Spain) or Pinochet (Chile )

[xzar_monty]

14 hours ago, Malcador said:

NATO is run by smart people, so not going to happen

I agree it wasn't a very smart comment, and shouldn't have been made, but there you go.

[BruceVC]

23 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

I agree it wasn't a very smart comment, and shouldn't have been made, but there you go.

Dont be too  hard on yourself, before Putins war and the invasion most of us were saying things like " Putin would never be that stupid and invade Ukraine " and then some people were hand-waving the US accurate intelligence with comments like " LOL...you can never trust US intelligence. Remember Iraq and WMD" 

@Darkpriest still needs to send us the video of him eating his hat 

[Gorth]

13 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Dont be too  hard on yourself, before Putins war and the invasion most of us were saying things like " Putin would never be that stupid and invade Ukraine " and then some people were hand-waving the US accurate intelligence with comments like " LOL...you can never trust US intelligence. Remember Iraq and WMD"

To be fair, 1) it was entirely possible to overestimate Putin. I know I was guilty of it, thinking him smarter than he was (turned out he was just another nationalist/patriot), and 2) US intelligence brought their bad reputation on themselves.

Reputation is like that, you can damage your trustworthiness through a single mistake (if it's big enough) and it takes a tenfold of brilliant actions to rebuild the lost trust again.

[BruceVC]

9 minutes ago, Gorth said:

To be fair, 1) it was entirely possible to overestimate Putin. I know I was guilty of it, thinking him smarter than he was (turned out he was just another nationalist/patriot), and 2) US intelligence brought their bad reputation on themselves.

Reputation is like that, you can damage your trustworthiness through a single mistake (if it's big enough) and it takes a tenfold of brilliant actions to rebuild the lost trust again.

Thats true, reputational damage lingers and sometimes unfairly

Also  I am  not  criticizing anyone because I dont think anyone believed Putin would invade except for @pmp10

I do want to raise one important consideration around the US, after Iraq and the misinformation around WMD many people continued to dismiss all intelligence reports up to 20 years later

So my question is this, how do we separate examples of misinformation and lies about geopolitical events   during one US presidency  from future intelligence reports? Because the US intelligence reports that they share with the world has been more or less accurate and fair sinde Iraq?

 

 

[xzar_monty]

32 minutes ago, Gorth said:

To be fair, 1) it was entirely possible to overestimate Putin. I know I was guilty of it, thinking him smarter than he was (turned out he was just another nationalist/patriot)

From a Nordic perspective, it has been sobering to recognize that the Baltic countries, apparently, had it right early on. Of course, they had a very recent experience of having escaped the Soviet / Russian world, and they knew what it was/is like.

(Also: one evil deed in the Hell Trials in BG2 makes you evil. This is entirely correct, and in line with what you say about reputation. Traditionally, the path of virtue is not called "narrow" for nothing. )

Edited October 11, 2022 by xzar_monty

[xzar_monty]

10 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Yeah, I think that claim needs a big Post Proof or Retract.

I'm not particularly familiar with Ukrainian cities, but it would be quite literally impossible to actually hit part of a New Zealand city tens of km away from civilian infrastructure

We may get a clarification for this, but I was thinking: language problem. The person you responded to is obviously not a native speaker, and you clearly speak English at a native level. You two may well have different definitions of "infrastructure" in mind, yours being much more encompassing.

English is sometimes a language of sweeping generalizations. The thing you have between the room you're in and the next one is a wall. That great thing in China is also a wall. But some languages have two different concepts for these two things that are obviously quite different. Or: a couple and their children constitute a family. Include their grandparents, uncles, aunts, nephews, nieces and so on, and they're all still family. But again, some languages have two different concepts for these two things that are obviously quite different.

[BruceVC]

5 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

From a Nordic perspective, it has been sobering to recognize that the Baltic countries, apparently, had it right early on. Of course, they had a very recent experience of having escaped the Soviet / Russian world, and they knew what it was/is like.

(Also: one evil deed in the Hell Trials in BG2 makes you evil. This is entirely correct, and in line with what you say about reputation. Traditionally, the path of virtue is not called "narrow" for nothing. )

Its true, most former Soviet states had been warning us about Putins real hegemony and aspirations and how it was a risk to overall EU and global stability

But I thought it was more because they remembered the Soviet occupation and then Merkel\Germany meant well with trying to be more inclusive and less critical of Putin through the years

But those days are over now and the likes of Germany and other Western countries are united in understanding the risk Putin poses to the stability of the  world. Better late than never?

[HoonDing]

Putin should try to wage war more like the civilized West and target women and children with precision strikes rather than letting missiles fly randomly.

[Darkpriest]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Dont be too  hard on yourself, before Putins war and the invasion most of us were saying things like " Putin would never be that stupid and invade Ukraine " and then some people were hand-waving the US accurate intelligence with comments like " LOL...you can never trust US intelligence. Remember Iraq and WMD" 

@Darkpriest still needs to send us the video of him eating his hat 

Shortages I say! Blimey!