The All Things Political Topic - A politician needs the ability to foretell what is going to happen tomorrow, next week, next month, and next year. And to have the ability afterwards to explain why it didn’t happen

[Gorth]

15 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Yes but cults are normally an aberration of scripture and religious teachings, its the same as  Islamic extremism does not represent that Islam stands for?

So, who is the official spokes person of a religion? The one with a divine appointment or the one with enough clout to convince his/her peers, that they better accept your leadership. Or else...

Which one is the correct Islam? Sunni, Shi'a or Sufism. Which one is the correct Christian faith? Catholicism, Orthodox, Protestantism, Anglican (insert long list of overseas sects here)? Etc. Are the Catholics just heretics after unilaterally declaring the patriarch of Rome as the one and only ruler (the original Orthodox faith recognized 5 patriarchs, Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Jerusalem and Antioch... famous for its hand grenades)?

I.e. there is no simple "right" faith and every variant is a cult or a sect or just deviants. They all claim to speak on behalf of their god.

For me, people are either good or bad. People can be good people *despite* being religious, not because of it (and vice versa with bad people). I'll leave it to religious people to sort out the mess that is the claim to the one and only true righteousness.

Trust me... life as an agnostic is simpler. Only thing to worry about is to convert the Imperial measurement heathens to accept the metric system as the guiding principle of the universe.

[alanschu]

On 7/15/2022 at 4:43 PM, Chilloutman said:

Critical race theory.. is that one in which everything wrong in the world is because of hwhite people?

No, but some people have been very effective at claiming that that was the case to fuel some outrage and the funny thing is that one of the big proponents of pushing back on it just openly shares that his goal is to bundle all sorts of things into it to poison it all.

  

On 7/15/2022 at 5:54 PM, Hurlsnot said:

People don't like change, even if it is at the expense of progress. Maybe it's an Amish thing?

I don't even think it's that they don't like change. That is some level of a component (especially if say, jobs are in some way tied to the extraction of fossil fuels, such as in my province), but sometimes financial realities just make it impossible. Make the options to avoid using an ICE vehicle too inconvenient (mass transit) or if they're more expensive (EVs), it'll greatly complicate wide spread adoption.

My provincial premier once lambasted an empty Tesla power station (installed by Tesla at no cost to the public) at 7am on a Winter day because doing so served as a rallying cry for supporting the oil industry.

Edited July 17, 2022 by alanschu

[BruceVC]

2 minutes ago, alanschu said:

No, but some people have been very effective at claiming that that was the case to fuel some outrage and the funny thing is that one of the big proponents of pushing back on it just openly shares that his goal is to bundle all sorts of things into it to poison it all.

I am not  going to get into another CRT debate this weekend  but its much bigger than just what one person thinks he is doing. And I do find what he said offensive and irritating because some of us take this debate seriously or at least our concerns are real. I really think the culture wars toxicity is unhelpful because it erodes real concerns about certain topics 

[alanschu]

12 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

For religious folks, when you die, your "soul" retains your personality?

I imagine that that is the belief, since to imagine an afterlife we project ourselves as we are into it.

It was a ton of fun when my brother was killed when I was 13 years old, and some of the **** I tried processing was that either I might not recognize my brother when I finally passed, or that he might not recognize me. I was heavily assured that it all would work out. Unfortunately stuff like that, as well as all the people telling me "he's in a better place" did a lot more to make me skeptical about the whole concepts. The latter in particular made me bitter towards religion and is probably a big reason why my early 20s was filled with militant atheism.

[Guard Dog]

The idea of getting into a twist over religion or lack thereof, makes no sense to me.  There are two possibilities: either there is a God or there isn't. Either there is an afterlife or there isn't. The existence of either cannot be verified so you have faith or you don't. If they don't exist believing in them changes nothing. If they do then disbelieving changes nothing. 

Suppose for a moment God does exist and is a supreme being and creator of all things. Such an individual is completely beyond the comprehension of us. So it's absurd for one person to tell another "God wants this" or "This is God's will". So the idea that a bunch of middle easterners had conversations with God 4000 years ago strains credulity. But that does not rule out God's existence. 

I look at it this way. Don't be an as---le and everything will work out fine. If God is what most folks believe He is then you'll be in good shape. Be honest, compassionate, and charitable with the fellow humans and I think it won't matter that you believed in God. I think God will believe in YOU. And if none of it was true than at least you will be remembered as a good man but the folks you knew and made the world a little better while you were in it. 

There are my own opinions of course. I believe in God and Jesus because the events of my life led me to that. But I have no more insight than anyone else so it would be foolish for me to insist on anyone else sharing my conclusions or criticizing them for their lives leading them to different conclusions. BTW if you have never read or watched The Life of Pi you should. It's an entertaining story but it also has a very enlightened take on religion. 

[Elerond]

3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Yes but cults are normally an aberration of scripture and religious teachings, its the same as  Islamic extremism does not represent that Islam stands for?

I am not sure, Christian seem to love point story of Sodom and Gomorrah as their example of what happens if you don't follow Christian way of sex live. Story told by person who offered his (underage) daughters to be raped by his neighbors in order them not to question his guest and then same poor fellow was so poorly after disaster in his home town that he had sex with both of his (underage) daughters so often that they become pregnant and he tells how it was all the daughters fault. And we should learn from this story that the narrator was holy man worth of saving where all the other people in Sodom and Gomorrah where sinful and deserved to die.

[BruceVC]

8 minutes ago, Elerond said:

I am not sure, Christian seem to love point story of Sodom and Gomorrah as their example of what happens if you don't follow Christian way of sex live. Story told by person who offered his (underage) daughters to be raped by his neighbors in order them not to question his guest and then same poor fellow was so poorly after disaster in his home town that he had sex with both of his (underage) daughters so often that they become pregnant and he tells how it was all the daughters fault. And we should learn from this story that the narrator was holy man worth of saving where all the other people in Sodom and Gomorrah where sinful and deserved to die.

Isnt that Old Testament? Christians generally follow New Testament where you dont offer your daughter for rape

Its better to learn from New  Testament ?We also dont follow everything 100% in the bible because it was written between 1400-1800 years ago in a different era  and we dont keep slaves anymore, kill people who work on Sunday or kill people because they gay

Times have changed Elerond and we update things accordingly 

[Elerond]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Isnt that Old Testament? Christians generally follow New Testament where you dont offer your daughter for rape

Its better to learn from New  Testament ?We also dont follow everything 100% in the bible because it was written between 1400-1800 years ago in a different era  and we dont keep slaves anymore, kill people who work on Sunday or kill people because they gay

Times have changed Elerond and we update things accordingly 

Have you listened Evangelical Christian sermons? They seem to have forgotten why they were called Evangelical in first place.

It is modern Christian sects that have twisted Sodom and Gomorrah and many other stories in bible as political messages

[BruceVC]

8 minutes ago, Elerond said:

Have you listened Evangelical Christian sermons? They seem to have forgotten why they were called Evangelical in first place.

It is modern Christian sects that have twisted Sodom and Gomorrah and many other stories in bible as political messages

I havent  and I dont plan to

I dont follow extremist interpretation of anything 

[Gfted1]

6 hours ago, Gorth said:

Only thing to worry about is to convert the Imperial measurement heathens to accept the metric system as the guiding principle of the universe.

Can you redo the ruler analogy in inches?  

[Gfted1]

9 hours ago, BruceVC said:

..we already know energy is never destroyed and just changes its state.

If when I die, some part of me is returned to some primordial quark soup, then groovy. But imo, your personality resides exclusively between your ears and when you die so does it.

[BruceVC]

9 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

If when I die, some part of me is returned to some primordial quark soup, then groovy. But imo, your personality resides exclusively between your ears and when you die so does it.

Why you being so morbid, you going to live forever !!!! 

If I can prove to you that their is more to existence than just what we think and our physical bodies would you change your mind ? 

 

[Gfted1]

7 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

If I can prove to you that their is more to existence than just what we think and our physical bodies would you change your mind ? 

Of course.

[Malcador]

3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Christians generally follow New Testament

In NA, could have fooled me.

[Guard Dog]

10 minutes ago, Malcador said:

In NA, could have fooled me.

The world would be a better place if the people who say they follow Jesus actually paid attention to the things Jesus said and did and followed His example. 

[Chairchucker]

4 hours ago, Elerond said:

I am not sure, Christian seem to love point story of Sodom and Gomorrah as their example of what happens if you don't follow Christian way of sex live. Story told by person who offered his (underage) daughters to be raped by his neighbors in order them not to question his guest and then same poor fellow was so poorly after disaster in his home town that he had sex with both of his (underage) daughters so often that they become pregnant and he tells how it was all the daughters fault. And we should learn from this story that the narrator was holy man worth of saving where all the other people in Sodom and Gomorrah where sinful and deserved to die.

Yeah the story of Lot and his daughters is probs one of the largest examples in the Bible where it's important to understand that much of it is descriptive, rather than prescriptive; this passage is not telling anyone how to live, it's an account of what happened.

While many would point to this as an example of God thinking sodomy is bad (hence naming it after the town in question) it's also pretty feasible that the townsfolk were seen as awful because they wanted to do some rapes. Another thing I've seen suggested is that, culturally, one's duty to one's guests is seen as a relatively high priority. Also, y'know, it's a horrible patriarchal society so the two daughters are seen as worth less than the men.

Interesting that you take pains to describe the daughters as underage, I see nothing in the text to support that.

In any case, the text describes the daughters as each date raping Lot. It is described as their fault because they raped a man they'd gotten drunk to the point of not knowing what is going on, specifically for the purpose of getting themselves pregnant.

Also, the Kingdoms which descended, in part, from Lot's daughters raping him, (Moab and Ammon) were apparently looked down upon by their neighbours, in part because they were the product of incest.

I suppose it's possible that there are people who read this text and take from it 'yeah it's totally good for men to rape their daughters,' but they would have to misread it about as poorly as you have done.

On 7/16/2022 at 5:43 PM, BruceVC said:

You once said you support CRT being taught at schools, what were talking about if you support it? Because I assume you dont just support things that dont exist?

And then I will repeat what I mentioned several times, I have seen several interviews on CNN where teachers in different US school districts  openly say " we have been told we cant teach CRT and its unfair because we want to provide our students with an  inclusive view of history " (or something similar )

Here is a link from a teacher that acknowledges CRT teaching has been banned but has found a way to bypass it, again its strange how liberal teachers themselves are talking about how the curriculum has been banned considering how you say it doesnt exist 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10005353/Iowa-teacher-proudly-shares-circumvents-states-ban-CRT-encouraging-questions.html

But just to clarify something, since we dont have anyone who can produce a curriculum, not the same thing as saying it doesnt exist, my issue with it is around any teaching that tells kids that a country like the US was founded only on racism and inequality and the US  is country of structural racism. Thats false, the US was not founded or created only on racism and oppression and racism exists in the US but its not structural 

And why do I care about this type of false narrative in the US? Its because this spreads to other countries like the UK and SA and I dont agree that history should be selective or revisionist 

 

Hmmm don't think what I said was quite as simple as that Bruce, although I'm happy for you to try and find the quote if you'd like. Also I don't think the logic you follow this statement with works at all. I'll see if I can try to explain why.

Let's say a school doesn't have a mathematics curriculum. Let's say 'Jane' supports that school having a mathematics curriculum. Does her supporting that school having a mathematics curriculum mean that suddenly, a mathematics curriculum is something that exists?

 

Back to CRT though. As has been mentioned elsewhere, CRT is a uni course. The ban seems to be not on CRT, but on concepts from it. This is the link to the legislation: https://www.legis.iowa.gov/legislation/BillBook?ba=HF 802&ga=89

Did a quick Ctrl+f, and neither CRT nor Critical Race Theory appear, so if they wanted to specifically ban that course, they've messed up a little there.

Also, as far as I'm aware there is no teaching that the US was founded 'only' on racism and inequality, but it's important to understand that it was a big part of its founding.

Also the USA absolutely has systemic/structural racism, and multiple times when this topic has come up, multiple sources have been provided demonstrating that this is the case, and each time you've gone 'hmmm well let's agree to disagree' so at this point, it's hard to care about your opinion on the subject.

[Malcador]

28 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

The world would be a better place if the people who say they follow Jesus actually paid attention to the things Jesus said and did and followed His example. 

Indeed, only speak of NA as that is where I have experience, plenty reference the Old more than the New.   But yes, religious people fall to the temptation to see themselves as the Hammer of God or something (well or just be outright phony scammers).

[BruceVC]

10 minutes ago, Chairchucker said:

Yeah the story of Lot and his daughters is probs one of the largest examples in the Bible where it's important to understand that much of it is descriptive, rather than prescriptive; this passage is not telling anyone how to live, it's an account of what happened.

While many would point to this as an example of God thinking sodomy is bad (hence naming it after the town in question) it's also pretty feasible that the townsfolk were seen as awful because they wanted to do some rapes. Another thing I've seen suggested is that, culturally, one's duty to one's guests is seen as a relatively high priority. Also, y'know, it's a horrible patriarchal society so the two daughters are seen as worth less than the men.

Interesting that you take pains to describe the daughters as underage, I see nothing in the text to support that.

In any case, the text describes the daughters as each date raping Lot. It is described as their fault because they raped a man they'd gotten drunk to the point of not knowing what is going on, specifically for the purpose of getting themselves pregnant.

Also, the Kingdoms which descended, in part, from Lot's daughters raping him, (Moab and Ammon) were apparently looked down upon by their neighbours, in part because they were the product of incest.

I suppose it's possible that there are people who read this text and take from it 'yeah it's totally good for men to rape their daughters,' but they would have to misread it about as poorly as you have done.

Hmmm don't think what I said was quite as simple as that Bruce, although I'm happy for you to try and find the quote if you'd like. Also I don't think the logic you follow this statement with works at all. I'll see if I can try to explain why.

Let's say a school doesn't have a mathematics curriculum. Let's say 'Jane' supports that school having a mathematics curriculum. Does her supporting that school having a mathematics curriculum mean that suddenly, a mathematics curriculum is something that exists?

 

Back to CRT though. As has been mentioned elsewhere, CRT is a uni course. The ban seems to be not on CRT, but on concepts from it. This is the link to the legislation: https://www.legis.iowa.gov/legislation/BillBook?ba=HF 802&ga=89

Did a quick Ctrl+f, and neither CRT nor Critical Race Theory appear, so if they wanted to specifically ban that course, they've messed up a little there.

Also, as far as I'm aware there is no teaching that the US was founded 'only' on racism and inequality, but it's important to understand that it was a big part of its founding.

Also the USA absolutely has systemic/structural racism, and multiple times when this topic has come up, multiple sources have been provided demonstrating that this is the case, and each time you've gone 'hmmm well let's agree to disagree' so at this point, it's hard to care about your opinion on the subject.

Thanks for the feedback, I am not going to continue this debate on CRT this weekend. I am not being rude but we can continue in the future if you dont mind?

[Elerond]

1 hour ago, Chairchucker said:

Interesting that you take pains to describe the daughters as underage, I see nothing in the text to support that.

They live with their parents and it is told that they have not been touched by man aka virgin. 

Meaning that they have not yet reached marriage age in culture where it is normal to marry daughters away long before they reach age 18. 

[BruceVC]

1 minute ago, Elerond said:

They live with their parents and it is told that they have not been touched by man aka virgin. 

Meaning that they have not yet reached marriage age in culture where it is normal to marry daughters away long before they reach age 18. 

Elerond are you atheist or agnostic ?

[Elerond]

1 minute ago, BruceVC said:

Elerond are you atheist or agnostic ?

Christian

[BruceVC]

1 minute ago, Elerond said:

Christian

Oh, sorry for the  misunderstanding

[InsaneCommander]

12 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Thats an interesting analogy around the ruler  but I am not sure its the same as sub-atomic particles

For example a 30 cm ruler is only 30 cm long and when you start dividing it in half it gets smaller and not bigger. So as you keep making it smaller you right it does become infinitely smaller which is why I ask what exists that is smaller than a quark?

Can science answer that?

Based on what is known today, a quark is considered to be 10^-19 m. What is smaller than that? Maybe neutrinos, photons and gluons. Not sure if there is a defined size for these. But even if you keep finding more particles, each smaller than the previous smallest one, you'll eventually reach the Planck length (1.6 x 10^-35 m), the smallest size we can possibly measure considering the limitations of quantum mechanics. Again, this is based on current knowledge, if a new theory is developed, things might change. But for now, the Planck length is considered the smallest anything can be.

 

12 hours ago, Gorth said:

The distance between the 1st and the 2nd centimeter can in theory be divided into an infinite amount of subdivisions. I.e. divide it in half, in quarters, eights, etc. Continue until you get an infinite number of subdivisions.

As I explained above, even if you could mathematically divide a centimeter into infinite divisions, physically it is not possible. You'd reach the Planck length and wouldn't be able to measure anything smaller. And if you can't measure it or define it, then you can't say you are still dividing it, I imagine.

[alanschu]

7 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

The idea of getting into a twist over religion or lack thereof, makes no sense to me.  There are two possibilities: either there is a God or there isn't. Either there is an afterlife or there isn't. The existence of either cannot be verified so you have faith or you don't. If they don't exist believing in them changes nothing. If they do then disbelieving changes nothing. 

This is largely my position now - my getting into a twist about it I was 13 and grieving so hardly rational. I'm atheist/agnostic, but am way less militant about faith in principle (i'm much more scrutinizing towards religious institutions given that they can wield and exercise power in harmful ways). But yes, plenty of perfectly fine people where faith is a part of their lives and I have no issue with that and IMO it's largely a way to try to make sense of things that are beyond our ability to perceive and comprehend. Plenty of Internet Atheists infuriate me too.

7 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Suppose for a moment God does exist and is a supreme being and creator of all things. Such an individual is completely beyond the comprehension of us. So it's absurd for one person to tell another "God wants this" or "This is God's will". So the idea that a bunch of middle easterners had conversations with God 4000 years ago strains credulity. But that does not rule out God's existence. 

I always found some of the timeline stuff interesting because my argument against some of it was things like "Evolution doesn't mean there is no God..." But for some Evolution is borderline hearsay and I find it just baffling. A friend of mine growing up and with aspirations to become a doctor had a sticker in his back window that was "Evolution? HA HA HA" with some random alien looking creature with limbs coming out of random parts of a sphere which was to me. I never really understood why people held onto those beliefs, beyond some organization/institution insisting that that be the way.

 

[Pidesco]

I assume you mean heresy, @alanschu?