Sun and Moon - is this normal?

[yorname]

16 hours ago, MaxQuest said:

+10 accuracy from one item, is quite a boon. Wouldn't it askew character builds in the direction of getting a weapon with Fire/FireWeapons kw

I'm OK if it's limited to things like Firebrand and Sun and Moon (if damage type changed to crush/elemental). Currently without kw mod, besides Dragon's Dowry you don't get a good damage dealer solely for using it: if I want more weapon damage, flails is not where I'd look. Instead it's used for reliably applying -25 REF or generating phrases for skalds and that's legit for me.

16 hours ago, MaxQuest said:

does it feel natural that Dragon's Dowry attack that deals pierce damage would benefit from that bonus as well?

Agreed, since even Magran's Favor and Keeper of the Flame that just look fiery and have some burn damage don't benefit from it, Dragon's Dowry shouldn't.

Edited July 21, 2022 by yorname

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, yorname said:

I'm OK if it's limited to things like Firebrand and Sun and Moon (if damage type changed to crush/elemental). Currently without kw mod, besides Dragon's Dowry you don't get a good damage dealer solely for using it: if I want more weapon damage, flails is not where I'd look. Instead it's used for reliably applying -25 REF or generating phrases for skalds and that's legit for me.

Agreed, since even Magran's Favor and Keeper of the Flame that just look fiery and have some burn damage don't benefit from it, Dragon's Dowry shouldn't.

I doubt any of these weapons could be qualified as top tier (although perfectly viable for some builds). Dragon Dowry is quite inferior to Red Hand (which basically doubles base damage DPS) except for the Legendary part (that can be ultimately negated).

But I agree that weapon without elemental damages and with elemental KW don't feel too natural.

 

Changing Sun & Moon to Elemental/Crush, removing Elemental KW to every weapon with only a lash and removing "Elemental Weapon" KWs as @Noqn suggests would be one of the most consistent way to address this issue.

It would indirectly nerf Arcane Archers (but I don't care cause BPM made the -5 Acc applied to all non-imbue attacks in exchange for imbue bond cost reduction ahahahah  )

The KW applied to some weapon with a lash and not to all of them feels a bit random. In general Damages Type <= > Keyword should be the rule (Boiling Spray being the exception  ) . It would be only slightly unfortunate for only a couple of weapons with dual damage type vs elemental immune, granted that mostly Fire Immune is significantly spread among foes. 

 

If not, I would keep current CP design with "elemental weapon" KW and applies Elemental bonus to everything that had it in the original game, such as Ring of Focused Flame to Dragon Dowry, as @theleesaid.

[Noqn]

Tried another solution where changing all the enemy Immunity status effects to only work on Spells/Abilities and ignore Weapons.

However the NonSpellAbility filter category is frustratingly not implemented in code, so this solution wouldn't cover item abilities or martial class abilities with elemental keywords...

Edited July 21, 2022 by Noqn

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, Noqn said:

Tried another solution where changing all the enemy Immunity status effects to only work on Spells/Abilities and ignore Weapons.

However the NonSpellAbility filter category is frustratingly not implemented in code, so this solution wouldn't cover item abilities or martial class abilities with elemental keywords...

I think a martial ability without an elemental KW counts as Keyworded when used with a Keyworded weapon.

So foes might take damages from your regular attack, but suddenly resists your Crippling Strike...

[Noqn]

17 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I think a martial ability without an elemental KW counts as Keyworded when used with a Keyworded weapon.

So foes might take damages from your regular attack, but suddenly resists your Crippling Strike...

Sorry, I was unclear. When adding Source:NonSpellAbility to the Immunity filter, it still affected *all* attacks, whether from weapons or abilities or spells. I looked at the decompiled code, and the DoesStatusEffectAttackFilterMatch function doesn't actually cover the NonSpellAbility value. It will be treated the same as Source:None, matching every attack.

Spoiler

if (attackFilter.Source == AttackOriginCategory.Weapon)
{
	//...
}
else if (attackFilter.Source == AttackOriginCategory.TwoHandedWeapon)
{
	//...
}
else if (attackFilter.Source == AttackOriginCategory.ProficientWeapon)
{
	//...
}
else if (attackFilter.Source == AttackOriginCategory.NonproficientWeapon)
{
	//...
}
else if (attackFilter.Source == AttackOriginCategory.Spell)
{
	//...
}
else if (attackFilter.Source == AttackOriginCategory.ParentEquippable && (instance == null || instance.EquippableOrigin == null || instance.EquippableOrigin != IStatusEffectOriginUtility.GetOriginOfType<Equippable>(origin)))
{
	//...
}

 

 

[MaxQuest]

Thank you for the feedback guys)

To resume all that, there seems to be 4 variants:

1. leave CP:Keywords as is. With new FireWeapons, FrostWeapons, ElectricityWeapons, CorrodeWeapons keywords. And Ring of Focused Flame not adding +10 acc to weapons which had Fire keyword. (but make sure that fire/frost procs are not lost on Sun & Moon attacks; and 25% fire proc on Sun&Moon first head attack benefit from that +10 acc and Scion of Flame)
2. make Ring of Focused Flame add +10 acc to attacks keyworded with both Fire and FireWeapons (and thus recreate vanilla feel)
3. make Ring of Focused Flame add +10 acc to attacks keyworded with Fire, and also to Firebrand (but not other weapons)
4. remove these new keywords completely, and thus undo Phenomenum's work. Note: elem/phys weapons won't be able to deal damage to respective elem-immune enemies

 

@Boeroerit would be also great to hear your stance on this ^

Edited July 22, 2022 by MaxQuest

[Noqn]

Btw, these are the enemies affected:

Flame Bats
Fire/Ice/Storm Blights
Magma Ooze
Magma Dragon
Wael Incarnate
Soul Collectors
Snow Bears
Frost Shades
Beast of Winter

[Boeroer]

I didn't read all the posts leading up to this now, so forgive me if I say something that was already dismissed as not working or stupid.

I like that you can play around with Firebrand - which isn't a superpowerful weapons to begin with (and you need to be a Druid who isn't the most awesome two-hander user) - and make it cool with an additional item. 

On the other side I don't like that certain attacks which don't do direct elemental damage get an elemental keyword and then work with Ring and Scion of Flame et al. And then also get those immunity issues despite not actually dealing the kind of damage the enemy is immune to. 

Example: Dragon's Dowry. It only deals pierce damage but has a burning lash and fire themed fluff and enchantments. Why do its attacks have to have the fire keyword though?
I get it with weapons like Essence Interrupter, Draining Touch, Firebrand etc. because they deal elemental damage directly, not via lash only.
I mean if I slap Mith Fyr or Turning Wheel on attacks they also don't become fire-keyworded attacks, so... just keep it consistent with the direct damage/lashes lending keywords.

So I guess I'm in favor of 3: make Ring of Focused Flames work with attacks that deal direct fire damage (of course Firebrand... but also see Keeper of the Flame's AoE? St. Drogga's Skull's additional burn dmg which is not a lash? Is there another weapon attack that deals direct fire damage? For example Sungrazer's AoEs?) and remove fire keywords from attacks which don't do direct fire dmg. Don't know if that distiction between original attack and additional fire attack (see Keeper of the Flame etc.) is even possible though. Maybe that's too complicated (also see Magran's Favor which deals slash damage but has an enchantment that applies elemetal fire DoT: no keyword for the slash but keyword for the DoT? Possible? Reasonable? Don't know...).

That would be consistent and systemic imo - also for enemies(!): attacks that deal direct fire damage get the keyword, others don't (lash is not enough). If that's too wild to implement then I'd go for 3 as suggested I believe. 2 would also be cool with me if the immunity issues can be avoided.    

Edited July 22, 2022 by Boeroer

[yorname]

Would you consider make it consistant about what should and shouldn't have keywords? Some weapons have elemental lash but only a handful of them have keywords and it does seem a bit random. After a quick search I found these ones: Sun and Moon, Thundercrack Pistol, Dragons Dowry and Hel Beckoning. They only have lash instead of double type damage, but are still given keywords. I'm not sure about Grave Calling, but Magran's Blessing certainly doesn't have Fire kw. I can only guess that those weapons have "unique" enchantments that act like a lash, whereas Magran's Blessing/Acolyte's Frostbite literally have enchantments called Buring/Freezing Lash. But that's a very far-fetched explanation and only adds confusion to the problem.

[Boeroer]

4 minutes ago, yorname said:

Would you consider make it consistant about what should and shouldn't have keywords? Some weapons have elemental lash but only a handful of them have keywords and it does seem a bit random.

Yeah, exactly my point.

[MaxQuest]

1 hour ago, yorname said:

Would you consider make it consistant about what should and shouldn't have keywords? Some weapons have elemental lash but only a handful of them have keywords and it does seem a bit random. After a quick search I found these ones: Sun and Moon, Thundercrack Pistol, Dragons Dowry and Hel Beckoning. They only have lash instead of double type damage, but are still given keywords. I'm not sure about Grave Calling, but Magran's Blessing certainly doesn't have Fire kw. I can only guess that those weapons have "unique" enchantments that act like a lash, whereas Magran's Blessing/Acolyte's Frostbite literally have enchantments called Buring/Freezing Lash. But that's a very far-fetched explanation and only adds confusion to the problem.

Yeah, I would like it to be consistent. But it's kinda confusing. Also I would like minimal effort

In my current understanding there are only 3 pure elemental weapons:

• Draining Touch (in vanilla: ability doesn't have Acid kw; attack doesn't have Acid kw...)
• Kalakoth's Minor Blights (in vanilla: ability doesn't have Fire/Frost/Electricity/Acid kw, and neither Elements kw; attacks do have Fire/Frost/Electricity/Acid kw)
• Caedebald's Blackbow (in vanilla: ability doesn't have Acid kw; attack has Acid kw)

Because they directly deal elemental damage, with no alternative damage type.

Now there are semi-elemental weapons:

• Firebrand (fire/pierce) (in vanilla: ability has Fire kw; attack has Fire kw)
• Essence Interrupter (pierce/electricity) (in vanilla: attack has Electricity kw)
• Frostfall (crush/frost) (in vanilla: attack has Frost kw)
• Lord Darryn's Voulge (slash/electricity) (in vanilla: main attack has Electricity kw)

The third category includes weapons with elemental procs and side-effects:

• e.g. Sun & Moon: first attack deals crush damage (and in vanilla: this attack has Fire kw) This attack triggers a 25% bonus fire damage proc (which in vanilla has no Fire kw...). And is followed up with a second crush damage attack (which in vanilla has Frost kw) And this second attack triggers a 25% bonus frost damage proc (which in vanilla has no Frost kw...). Funny right?

And fourth category includes weapons with elemental lashes

==========

==========

Personally I would expect:

• weapons from first category: attacks to benefit from elemental PEN talents, and from stuff like Ring of Focused Flame; and get their SummonWeapon ability duration increased from +PL bonuses
• weapons from second category: attacks to benefit from elemental PEN talents, and from stuff like Ring of Focused Flame; and get their SummonWeapon ability duration increased from +PL bonuses
• weapons from third category: have their elem procs benefit from elemental PEN talents, stuff like Ring of Focused Flame, and +PL bonuses
• weapons from fourth category: ideally have their lashes benefit from elemental PEN talents

What do you think about such approach/direction?

And also:

• would you like to have Firebrand's damage be changed from fire/pierce to just fire, or pierce/fire?
• what's your stance on SummonWeapon spells kw? (as you can see there is inconsistency there too)

Edited July 22, 2022 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, MaxQuest said:

Personally I would expect:

• weapons from first category: attacks to benefit from elemental PEN talents, and from stuff like Ring of Focused Flame; and get their SummonWeapon ability duration increased from +PL bonuses
• weapons from second category: attacks to benefit from elemental PEN talents, and from stuff like Ring of Focused Flame; and get their SummonWeapon ability duration increased from +PL bonuses
• weapons from third category: have their elem procs benefit from elemental PEN talents, stuff like Ring of Focused Flame, and +PL bonuses
• weapons from fourth category: ideally have their lashes benefit from elemental PEN talents

What do you think about such approach/direction?

I would think that would be great and the most clean solution.

1 hour ago, MaxQuest said:

• would you like to have Firebrand's damage be changed from fire/pierce to just fire, or pierce/fire?

Bit indifferent... it looks like a blade made from pure flame though (unlike in PoE where it looked like a solid blade with fire around - but did only fire dmg, heh...) so I would be fine with "fire only" - if that made things easier. One just has to keep in mind that Great Swords have low base PEN because they have dual dmg. If Firebrand would have only single fire dmaage I would raise its PEN or give it more base dmg to balance that out a bit. It should be a viable weapon even without Rings an Scion of Flame.

But if it's no problem I would just keep it as it is?

1 hour ago, MaxQuest said:

• what's your stance on SummonWeapon spells kw? (as you can see there is inconsistency there too)

Since that's only relevant for the duration I don't care that much. It would be very consistent and a cool detail if elemental Power Levels would indeed extend the fitting weapon summonings (like Otto Starcat could prolong Firebrand's duration a bit and such) - but I wouldn't be on the fence about it.

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Boeroer

[yorname]

I can't remember but does keywords make summoned weapons cancelled by opposite keywords?

[Boeroer]

Nope 

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, MaxQuest said:

Yeah, I would like it to be consistent. But it's kinda confusing. Also I would like minimal effort

In my current understanding there are only 3 pure elemental weapons:

• Draining Touch (in vanilla: ability doesn't have Acid kw; attack doesn't have Acid kw...)
• Kalakoth's Minor Blights (in vanilla: ability doesn't have Fire/Frost/Electricity/Acid kw, and neither Elements kw; attacks do have Fire/Frost/Electricity/Acid kw)
• Caedebald's Blackbow (in vanilla: ability doesn't have Acid kw; attack has Acid kw)

Because they directly deal elemental damage, with no alternative damage type.

Now there are semi-elemental weapons:

• Firebrand (fire/pierce) (in vanilla: ability has Fire kw; attack has Fire kw)
• Essence Interrupter (pierce/electricity) (in vanilla: attack has Electricity kw)
• Frostfall (crush/frost) (in vanilla: attack has Frost kw)
• Lord Darryn's Voulge (slash/electricity) (in vanilla: main attack has Electricity kw)

The third category includes weapons with elemental procs and side-effects:

• e.g. Sun & Moon: first attack deals crush damage (and in vanilla: this attack has Fire kw) This attack triggers a 25% bonus fire damage proc (which in vanilla has no Fire kw...). And is followed up with a second crush damage attack (which in vanilla has Frost kw) And this second attack triggers a 25% bonus frost damage proc (which in vanilla has no Frost kw...). Funny right?

And fourth category includes weapons with elemental lashes

==========

First I think this classification is nice. And any solution should have similar mechanics within same category.

Are you sure Lash can be keyworded independantly from main attack ?

I have some doubt about understanding third category. Does it include weapon like Keeper of the Flame ?

As far as I understand Sun&Moon is basically a weapon with a lash (well, two lashes) but coded differently to make it work with its special effects. So Sun&Moon could be bordeline included in the forth category bar the technical aspect.

3 hours ago, MaxQuest said:

==========

Personally I would expect:

• weapons from first category: attacks to benefit from elemental PEN talents, and from stuff like Ring of Focused Flame; and get their SummonWeapon ability duration increased from +PL bonuses

Agreed.

3 hours ago, MaxQuest said:

• weapons from second category: attacks to benefit from elemental PEN talents, and from stuff like Ring of Focused Flame; and get their SummonWeapon ability duration increased from +PL bonuses

Agreed, even if it causes foes with immunity to be immune to them. This is consistent with the rest of the ruleset (such as Poison Immune foes that take no damages from Toxic Strike physical attack).

3 hours ago, MaxQuest said:

• weapons from third category: have their elem procs benefit from elemental PEN talents, stuff like Ring of Focused Flame, and +PL bonuses

Agreed for weapon like keeper of the flame.

Sun&Moon is a special case, I suggest to design a solution for other weapon first, then adjust Sun&Moon to fit in (dual damage type with 1 less PEN could work without buffing it too much, so it fits the second category).

3 hours ago, MaxQuest said:

• weapons from fourth category: ideally have their lashes benefit from elemental PEN talents

If possible, yes.

3 hours ago, MaxQuest said:

And also:

• would you like to have Firebrand's damage be changed from fire/pierce to just fire, or pierce/fire?

I think you could keep it as it is. But I am in line with @Boeroeropinion above.

3 hours ago, MaxQuest said:

• what's your stance on SummonWeapon spells kw? (as you can see there is inconsistency there too)

BPM added elemental keywords to the fitting summoning weapon ability, except Minor Blight.

 I think it makes sense (not sure for Minor Blight), even if the bonus to duration is minor.

Once summoned, treat them according to the general rule (so Minor Blight attacks should have Elemental KW).

Edited July 22, 2022 by Elric Galad

[MaxQuest]

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I would think that would be great and the most clean solution.

Good)

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Bit indifferent... it looks like a blade made from pure flame though (unlike in PoE where it looked like a solid blade with fire around - but did only fire dmg, heh...) so I would be fine with "fire only" - if that made things easier. One just has to keep in mind that Great Swords have low base PEN because they have dual dmg. If Firebrand would have only single fire dmaage I would raise its PEN or give it more base dmg to balance that out a bit. It should be a viable weapon even without Rings an Scion of Flame.

But if it's no problem I would just keep it as it is?

Firebrand looks like a good candidate to get into first category. It is a summoned weapon, and description says it is made of pure flame.

And yes, I am ok with upping it's PEN if it is changed to fire damage only.

The question is: do we want it to deal damage to fire blights and magma dragon or not.

 

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Since that's only relevant for the duration I don't care that much. It would be very consistent and a cool detail if elemental Power Levels would indeed extend the fitting weapon summonings (like Otto Starcat could prolong Firebrand's duration a bit and such) - but I wouldn't be on the fence about it.

I don't care much neither about this aspect. Just a bit of consistency

 

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Are you sure Lash can be keyworded independantly from main attack ?

I don't think so

But would expect the game would add automatically the +1 PEN from elemental talents to weapon lashes

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

As far as I understand Sun&Moon is basically a weapon with a lash (well, two lashes)

Those are surprisingly not lashes, but rather damage procs.

The 25% fire damage proc happens, when the character deals damage with flail attack that has Fire keyword.

The 25% frost damage proc happens, when the character deals damage with flail attack that has Frost keyword.

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

I have some doubt about understanding third category. Does it include weapon like Keeper of the Flame ?

Needa check

 

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Sun&Moon is a special case, I suggest to design a solution for other weapon first, then adjust Sun&Moon to fit in (dual damage type with 1 less PEN could work without buffing it too much, so it fits the second category).

You want the first main attack to benefit from Ring of Focused Flame?

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Once summoned, treat them according to the general rule (so Minor Blight attacks should have Elemental KW).

Yeah, I was thinking about Elemental keyword added to spell too))

[dgray62]

3 minutes ago, MaxQuest said:

Firebrand looks like a good candidate to get into first category. It is a summoned weapon, and description says it is made of pure flame.

And yes, I am ok with upping it's PEN if it is changed to fire damage only.

The question is: do we want it to deal damage to fire blights and magma dragon or not.

 

I agree with the first two points, and as for the question, I'd say no. It doesn't make sense to summon a weapon "made of pure flame" when fighting fire immune foes.

[Kaylon]

From what I remember, some weapons were made elemental when the arcane archer was introduced, to offer people more weapon choices. The changes proposed by MaxQuest are basically more  nerfs introduced to the vanilla game, but don't fix the main problem...

Personally, the problem that bothers me the most is the fact that monsters immune to an elemental type are also immune to other damage types because of the keyword immunity. Also the same monsters take damage from the same elemental damage they're supposed to be immune if there's no keyword attached to it (lash damage for example). My solution to this problem is to make monsters immune to the respective elemental damage (by changing their armors), instead of elemental attacks (remove immunity to keywords).

As for the weapons tagged as elemental I keep my previous suggestion - give them a second damage type to justify the elemental keywords, instead of removing them - or let them like they're now.

 

[NotDumbEnough]

I agree that it would be much simpler to just take away keyword immunity from monsters and give them damage immunity instead. This is likely a minor buff for the player but would make the rules much simpler, especially since you often can't see keyword immunities in their descriptions. This might have minor ramifications for poison/disease immune Paladins and shock immune Furies but otherwise I think keyword immunities on monsters is just arbitrary punishment for the player right now, who often only realizes the monster is immune after trying a spell on them.

 

[Elric Galad]

5 hours ago, MaxQuest said:

Those are surprisingly not lashes, but rather damage procs.

The 25% fire damage proc happens, when the character deals damage with flail attack that has Fire keyword.

The 25% frost damage proc happens, when the character deals damage with flail attack that has Frost keyword.

Yes, I got it, but the effect is similar to one, so I would expect them to work as lashes, in order to get clearer rules.

But maybe they need this implementation difference to work with item properties.

What would be the consequences to have it with a proper lash ?

1 hour ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I agree that it would be much simpler to just take away keyword immunity from monsters and give them damage immunity instead. This is likely a minor buff for the player but would make the rules much simpler, especially since you often can't see keyword immunities in their descriptions. This might have minor ramifications for poison/disease immune Paladins and shock immune Furies but otherwise I think keyword immunities on monsters is just arbitrary punishment for the player right now, who often only realizes the monster is immune after trying a spell on them.

 

I think there could be an issue with fire absorbing monsters. I think they are not coded with damages immunity but KW immunity. And I'm not sure they would work properly with damage immunity.

 

[NotDumbEnough]

IIRC aren't Fire Naga not fire immune? They simply heal instead of taking damage. They actually have very low Burn AR to heal more from burn damage. I don't think they have fire immunity to begin with, so I don't think it's the same situation as Essence Interrupter not dealing damage to keyword shock immune, or And Sip From the Marrow instakill not working against acid immune.

[Kaylon]

11 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I think there could be an issue with fire absorbing monsters. I think they are not coded with damages immunity but KW immunity. And I'm not sure they would work properly with damage immunity.

I think fire absorbing monsters like Dorudugan don't need fire immunity at all - they will just heal from fire damage (like the player using Rekvu's cloak)

[Noqn]

Yep, Flame Naga and Dorudugan etc. convert Burn damage specifically, they don't look at any Keywords.

[MaxQuest]

23 hours ago, Kaylon said:

From what I remember, some weapons were made elemental when the arcane archer was introduced, to offer people more weapon choices.

That's a good point.

From patch 4.0 changelog:

• Thundercrack Pistol, Dragon's Dowry, and Frostseeker now have keywords for their respective elements on their attacks.
• Thundercrack Pistol's Conductive Blast & Storm Rune Shot attacks now have the Electricity keyword.

What if these weapons had their damage types changed?

• Thundercrack: pierce -> pierce/electricity (PEN 7 -> 6)
• Dragon's Dowry: pierce -> pierce/fire (PEN 9 -> 8)
• Frostseeker: pierce/slash -> pierce/frost (PEN 8 -> stays 8)

Or naa?

[NotDumbEnough]

I think that's a pretty good buff for Maia so that she has something to shoot with against pierce immune, though whether gun rangers deserve that buff is another question.