Ukraine Conflict - Das Himmelfahrtskommando

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, majestic said:

@Mamoulian War, @Gorth or @Amentep... please fix the article in the title. It's das, not der.  

That is all. 

Grammar Nazi !!!  

[BruceVC]

10 minutes ago, Elerond said:

There is no war crime tribunals against USA or Russia without someone else taking over them as neither one recognizes authority of ICC

But Elerond whats your personal opinion? Should Russia be charged with war crimes ?

[BruceVC]

19 minutes ago, bugarup said:

Really. But what it is impossible to try people responsible for Iraq right now for whatever reasons? So, since someone who committed war crimes went yet uninvestigated, Putler can do whatever he pleases because, I dunno, it's rude to jump the Hague queue? 

" its rude to jump the Hague queue " 

[Elerond]

4 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

But Elerond whats your personal opinion? Should Russia be charged with war crimes ?

Everyone who commits war crimes should be charged of crimes they have committed, but sad reality is that currently only losers of wars involving small nations are ones that face such charges. And even with them most of crimes go without charges or even investigations.

[213374U]

13 minutes ago, bugarup said:

Really. But what it is impossible to try people responsible for Iraq right now for whatever reasons? So, since someone who committed war crimes went yet uninvestigated, Putler can do whatever he pleases because, I dunno, it's rude to jump the Hague queue? 

No, not because it's rude, but because literally the only thing that an institution like the ICC works on is credibility as there is no actual international law enforcement. If you systematically only try non-Westerners, because every time someone brings up the possibility of trying a NATO brass commander it must be postponed indefinitely because of "whatever reasons", it's never going to work. And without it, what you get is a might-makes-right international politics which lead to things like Putin invading Ukraine because he can.

[Zoraptor]

14 minutes ago, Elerond said:

There is no war crime tribunals against USA or Russia without someone else taking over them as neither one recognizes authority of ICC

I think the war crimes statements are in the context of [future western friendly Russian government] handing him over for some reason (or joining the ICC). Which would require two fairly fundamental alterations to reality- a western aligned government willing to join the ICC, which is a pipe dream after Yeltsin, and a change to Russia's Constitution to allow extraditions.

 

As for the more general point of why the concept of international law has to be applied to everyone even handedly or else is pretty much pointless, if not actively counterproductive: what we have is a system where only the weak and poor can be punished. Imagine claiming that is a good justice system in any other context, and it's fine because "at least some people are getting punished". Well sure some are getting punished, but others are getting away with it not because they're innocent, but because they are too powerful or threatening the judge and police. That's probably the single biggest sign of a bad justice system.

[Gorth]

32 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

That makes sense but surely  NATO could still launch nukes from the Baltic states? Because the specific point made in SA from RT anchors and the Russian embassy is " Russia doesnt want nukes on its border " ?

What makes you think it wouldn't have been perceived as a declaration of war (and a Casus Belli to invade them)? Wanna bet it still gives Putin nightmares that they joined NATO and he couldn't do anything to prevent it?

 

What I'm trying to understand is the mindset and the paranoia. Every major invasion came through the Ukrainian plains. From the Polish invasion and sacking of Moscow to the Nazi German invasion and almost sacking of Moscow (and every invasion in between). No serious threat came from the south or the east after the collapse of the various Mongolian empires and successor realms (yeah, the Czars completely bungled the various wars in the far east, but weren't existential threats). It was the same reason the Warsaw Pact was created (and a number of countries turned into de facto puppet regime states) a few years after NATO, to give a buffer and an early warning when western powers again decided to invade Russia.

[BruceVC]

Just now, 213374U said:

No, not because it's rude, but because literally the only thing that an institution like the ICC works on is credibility as there is no actual international law enforcement. If you systematically only try non-Westerners, because every time someone brings up the possibility of trying a NATO brass commander it must be postponed indefinitely because of "whatever reasons", it's never going to work. And without it, what you get is a might-makes-right international politics which lead to things like Putin invading Ukraine because he can.

But its not just non-Westerners being charged  in the ICC or the Hague 

You have numerous Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian military people who were charged in the International Criminal Court for Yugoslavia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Tribunal_for_the_former_Yugoslavia#:~:text=The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia,ad hoc court located in The Hague%2C Netherlands.

And more important than that the ICC and similar Hague based prosecutorial institutions, like the ICTY, is its not a kangaroo court and you wont be automatically found guilty. Their are several cases of African warlords who were not found guilty in the ICC and released and acquitted 

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/13/africa/congo-warlord-sentence-release-duplicate/index.html

 

[Gorth]

3 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

But its not just non-Westerners being charged  in the ICC or the Hague 

You have numerous Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian military people who were charged in the International Criminal Court for Yugoslavia

I'm not sure Eastern Europe is considered "Western" in this context. I.e. you just confirmed that Western leaders are not held accountable for war crimes by the ICC

 

As for Kangaroo courts, it took the opposition party and a struggling free press down here (despite the Morrison government trying to silence it through heavy handed use of federal police in an attempt to silence the press) to raise the finger and point out Australian War Crimes for domestic prosecution at least.

[Mamoulian War]

The calmness of these guys...

[BruceVC]

17 minutes ago, Elerond said:

Everyone who commits war crimes should be charged of crimes they have committed, but sad reality is that currently only losers of wars involving small nations are ones that face such charges. And even with them most of crimes go without charges or even investigations.

Thats such a ...Elerond thing to say 

But thats also one of the reasons I like and respect your opinion because you very consistent. In fact I find myself agreeing with you probably 90% of the time 

I have only  really disagreed with you when you bad  and you say things like " Huawei\Chinese  backdoors in their 5g equipment is the same as  Facebook  having access to Facebook   private user information " and similar things 

[majestic]

41 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

But Elerond whats your personal opinion? Should Russia be charged with war crimes ?

No, and people who uncover war crimes and make them public should be tried as traitors to the fullest extent of the law, saddled with trumped up charges if need be, and we should all be doing a little happy dance when their last appeals fall on deaf ears. Right?

Edited March 18, 2022 by majestic

[Amentep]

1 hour ago, Lexx said:

What's up with the german titles lately.

 

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

Im Westen Nichts Neues was a good read.  War is not a recommended solution to any problem.

After Im Westen nichts Neues was used as a subtitle for the first thread, I followed up with the title of Remarque's sorta-sequel Der Weg zurück for the second thread and then for the third thread went with Remarque's Drei Kameraden.

I'm a sucker for a good running theme.

[BruceVC]

15 minutes ago, majestic said:

No, and people who uncover war crimes and make them public should be tried as traitors to the fullest extent of the law, saddled with trumped up charges if need be, and we should all be doing a little happy dance when their last appeals fall on deaf ears. Right?

Are you talking about Snowden and Assange?

They  both accused  of criminal charges, they stand accused of several real crimes.They not trumped up at all

But you seem to assuming they will both be automatically found guilty as if the US judicial system is corrupt and a kangaroo court?

Their would be lots of US media attention on these cases and lots of people supporting them due to the interminable US political " left vs right " debates and dichotomies 

So their is no way the Federal government would fabricate charges that could somehow survive public scrutiny 

So they will only be found guilty if they broke the law and I know we all support one of foundations in all our countries which is  a free and fair and transparent  judiciary and overall legal system . And we all support people who commit crimes being punished ?

 

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by BruceVC

[Malcador]

2 hours ago, Lexx said:

What's up with the german titles lately.

Just be worried when it reaches "Wollt ihr den totalen Krieg"1

[Pidesco]

2 hours ago, Malcador said:

Just be worried when it reaches "Wollt ihr den totalen Krieg"1

Creative Assembly press events in German must be awkward.

[Mamoulian War]

Now even Hezbollah categorically denies cooperation with Russia.
 

 

[Lexx]

So who did they ship over then?

[Sarex]

 

[Mamoulian War]

 

[InsaneCommander]

Russian cosmonauts board ISS wearing colours of Ukraine flag.

[Mamoulian War]

Looks like the tradition of Gulags has been reestablished

 

[Lexx]

More hostages, great.

 

Also:

https://kyivindependent.com/national/russia-throws-untrained-civilians-from-occupied-donbas-into-hot-spots-of-its-war-in-ukraine/

Edited March 20, 2022 by Lexx

[xzar_monty]

On 3/18/2022 at 1:08 PM, BruceVC said:

Are you talking about Snowden and Assange?

They  both accused  of criminal charges, they stand accused of several real crimes.They not trumped up at all

But you seem to assuming they will both be automatically found guilty as if the US judicial system is corrupt and a kangaroo court?

Snowden has been charged under the Espionage Act of 1917, which means that there is no chance he will get what is called a fair trial in the US. This is something that a lot of people don't appear to know (for more information, you can google "snowden fair trial espionage act" or something).

Please note that I am not saying anything about what might happen. Just that there is no way he would be able to defend himself as people generally are when they are charged of a crime.

(Some years ago I did quite a bit of work related to the Snowden case and, for instance, Glenn Greenwald's handling of it. It was both extremely interesting and hair-raising.)

[rjshae]

22 hours ago, InsaneCommander said:

Russian cosmonauts board ISS wearing colours of Ukraine flag.

An intentionally ambiguous message from Russia so they don't get tossed out the airlock?