Ukraine conflict - im Westen nichts Neues

[Elerond]

41 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

Well if they are serious, (1) they should NOT be public about it and submit their request in secret, and (2) their bid should be approved in a hyper-expedited manner.

Joining to Nato needs to change to Finland's constitution so it can't be done in secret

[Katphood]

This is all you need to watch...

That poor mother.  

[Zoraptor]

3 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

Overall, the Russian military is performing extremely poorly: they still don’t have air superiority due to Ukraine moving its air defences around, and Russian missile strikes having only hit old, static targets. Russia’s attempts to rapidly seize Kyiv while minimising losses to Ukrainian civilians and its infrastructure are resulting in massive losses on their side. According to the Ukrainians, as of Sunday Kyiv claimed to have taken out: 540 IFVs, 16 airplanes, 18 helicopters, 102 tanks, 504 APCs, 1 Buk-1 system, 20 armoured cars, and 5,000 soldiers. The latter is a third of the total losses suffered in the entire Soviet-Afghan war (1979-89).

Eh, do we really need to note how far off estimates of enemy casualties always are?

Russia not having air superiority is almost unique in its level of optimism, which says a lot given the level of optimism about everything else. The correct term would be 'air supremacy', Russia definitely has air superiority.

[Raithe]

On a side-note...

[kanisatha]

3 hours ago, Katphood said:

Man, talk about shooting yourself in the foot. I'd be anything but Putin right now. He is probably locked in his office right now, crying, drinking vodka and listening to Radiohead. 

More information is slowly coming out now about Putin's state of mind. Even some people in Russia who were/are close to Putin are now coming forward to talk about their concerns about Putin's mental state. They say he has been suffering from medically diagnosable conditions of delusion and paranoia for some months now. He literally lives in isolation in a bunker, and has stopped communicating even with people who used to be his highly trusted confidantes; that he used to actually ask for and listen to alternative pov's, but not anymore, and now just demands outcomes from subordinates no matter how unachievable; that he has sunk into an obsession with Ukraine, and believes some people are out to "get him" including to kill him.

This is the stuff that worries me most, that as the war goes poorly, his economy in tatters, his image and reputation destroyed, the whole world rallying around people he has determined to be "nazis" and "criminals," he will suffer a complete mental breakdown even while having that finger on the nuclear button.

[Lexx]

Sounds to me more like rich people trying to build a story to get out of this mess. : >

I can't believe that Putin is supposed to be the sole owner of this idea. Usually it takes a few more people.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Lexx

[Chilloutman]

2 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Sounds to me more like rich people trying to build a story to get out of this mess. : >

I wish

[HoonDing]

Wouldn't it be great for China and India if the West and Russia erased each other with nukes and they get to rule Africa and what's left of Eurasia.

[InsaneCommander]

 How Putin made the EU great again

[Gorth]

5 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Radiohead is too Western for him but yes on the Vodka and hot Russian escorts 

He may surprise you. He's very religious, married (has some pretty daughters) and hates vodka, to the point that Russian vodka makers might be the first on the barricades protesting against Putin.

So much misinformation floating around (doctored images, wrongly attributed video clips, you name it)

https://www.bbc.com/news/60554910

From 2018 gas explosions to Ukrainian Palestinian girl telling Russian Israeli soldiers to go back to their own country.... lots of examples in the BBC piece.

[Gorth]

57 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

Wouldn't it be great for China and India if the West and Russia erased each other with nukes and they get to rule Africa and what's left of Eurasia.

The thing about nuclear war is, there wont be a "what's left". This isn't a Fallout game.

[Darkpriest]

I agree with long term consequences of weaponizing SWIFT.  Not sure yet on the scope, but it will lead to the power of countires which are large holders of resources, labor and manufacturing. 

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/jamie-dimon-warns-swift-sanctions-may-bring-unintended-consequences-can-be-circumvented

[Hurlshort]

I've been saying for years that there needs to be an age limit on politicians and world leaders. There is this weird idea that people just keep getting wiser as they age. My mother-in-law is 70 and can barely operate the television. She doesn't need access to the red button at her age. 

People retire in their 60's for good reason.

[Bartimaeus]

53 minutes ago, Gorth said:

So much misinformation floating around (doctored images, wrongly attributed video clips, you name it)

There's also the Gell-Mann amnesia effect to consider:

"You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them. In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know."

Edited March 1, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[Katphood]

'Hey, what is the best way of traveling with a tank without getting ambushed?'

'Use the highway'

...a few moments later:

 

[Zoraptor]

3 hours ago, Gorth said:

He may surprise you. He's very religious, married (has some pretty daughters)

Putin is divorced as of... 2013. Weird divorce too, as iirc it was either signed or announced on live TV by both of them in something reminiscent of a Treaty signing ceremony, though I could be misremembering.

(I thought it was quite funny that no one seemed sure how many daughters he had for absolute ages with some quite serious speculation the second one might not exist)

[Gorth]

1 minute ago, Zoraptor said:

Putin is divorced as of... 2013. Weird divorce too, as iirc it was either signed or announced on live TV by both of them in something reminiscent of a Treaty signing ceremony, though I could be misremembering.

(I thought it was quite funny that no one seemed sure how many daughters he had for absolute ages with some quite serious speculation the second one might not exist)

I think his marriage was "arranged" originally (a requirement for Soviet spies, to make them more resilient to honey traps iirc). He always went through a lot of trouble hiding his family from the public eye. Maybe he just need to get laid?

[Katphood]

@Lexx

Yeah, it ain't Putin alone but he sure does get all the credit.

 

One thing that bothers me with this war though: the west and the EU get a very undeserved boost from Russias defeat. They created this mess in the first place...as always, like, for the nth f-ing time...

[BruceVC]

3 hours ago, Gorth said:

He may surprise you. He's very religious, married (has some pretty daughters) and hates vodka, to the point that Russian vodka makers might be the first on the barricades protesting against Putin.

 

Thanks Gorthfuscious, you make me laugh sometimes Only you could find positive things to say about Putin when  globally this is probably the most unpopular he has ever been in his life 

But I do appreciate the sentiment 

[kanisatha]

4 hours ago, Lexx said:

I can't believe that Putin is supposed to be the sole owner of this idea.

There are plenty of examples of just this in history, and furthermore no one is saying it is all him alone. It is entirely possible some other crazy ultra-nationalists (the Sergei twins for example) happen to share is obsession with Ukraine. But the bottom line is that he leads a dictatorship, and by definition that means he answers to no one else.

[kanisatha]

4 hours ago, HoonDing said:

Wouldn't it be great for China and India if the West and Russia erased each other with nukes and they get to rule Africa and what's left of Eurasia.

There is a story that when Mao went to Moscow for his first meeting with Stalin, he vigorously urged Stalin to start a fullscale nuclear war with the West, arguing that because the USSR and the PRC had so many more people than the West at least some of their people would survive whereas the West would be all dead, and in this way they could take over the world.

Point is, a would-be hegemon using an ally to do the dirty work of destroying an opponent, in the process destroying themselves as well, is a time-tested strategy of ambitious great powers.

[BruceVC]

3 hours ago, Hurlsnot said:

I've been saying for years that there needs to be an age limit on politicians and world leaders. There is this weird idea that people just keep getting wiser as they age. My mother-in-law is 70 and can barely operate the television. She doesn't need access to the red button at her age. 

People retire in their 60's for good reason.

Geez that is ageism 101  and Im very surprised. Hurlshot please dont be a bigot. Old people have a right to dignity the same as the rest of us

What would your students think if they found out you pushing  bigotry on the Internet ?????

You not automatically useless at a certain age unless your mental  faculties are not functioning correctly, no need for someone at 70 to not be an effective president 

[kanisatha]

4 hours ago, InsaneCommander said:

 How Putin made the EU great again

The transformation of Germany is the most amazing. A week ago they remained adament that they would not cancel Nord Stream 2, would not agree to kick the Russians out of SWIFT, and would not lift their ban on supplying military aid to Ukraine under any circumstances. Now, not only have they resolutely turned around on every one of those issues, today the chancellor said in the Bundestag that Germany had made a big mistake cutting back its military to where it's at now and so he was going to raise German defense spending above 2% of GDP to rebuild German military strength. Truly amazing! Welcome back to the real world, and to the transatlantic alliance, Germany!

[kanisatha]

19 minutes ago, Katphood said:

One thing that bothers me with this war though: the west and the EU get a very undeserved boost from Russias defeat. They created this mess in the first place...as always, like, for the nth f-ing time...

Yup. All those Ukrainians dying are saving NATO's sorry ass. Ukraine is paying the ultimate price so that the West can relearn these lessons from history yet again.

[BruceVC]

12 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

There are plenty of examples of just this in history, and furthermore no one is saying it is all him alone. It is entirely possible some other crazy ultra-nationalists (the Sergei twins for example) happen to share is obsession with Ukraine. But the bottom line is that he leads a dictatorship, and by definition that means he answers to no one else.

Remember that some of our forum friends have always thought of Putin and Russia as an  alternative to  the current Western "hegemony " so the reality of how he  is acting  now is disappointing  and shatters that narrative 

Now you may immediately ask " why would you want to replace governments that are Constitutional Democracies that have proven to  offer historically overall the best quality of life compared to other systems of government  " ?

And I cant answer that and why people use to think Putin was such an great leader compared to Western  leaders, I have never liked him and he has history of irrational and highly controversial behavior 

Western ideology is not perfect and neither are its leaders but compared to Putin they Mother Theresa