Trying to figure what PoE2 sold less

[xzar_monty]

I would think that being vindicated like this is excellent in the long run, but surely the first year or so after launch must have been a harrowing disappointment -- and even more so because the developers must have known the game itself was wonderful.

[Elric Galad]

This would hint toward my pet theory.

A big part of 3D Isometric RTwP CRPG crowd is people in their 30ies+.
And we simply don't have that much time to play all of games.

There was a good number of 3D Isometric CRPG when PoE2 was released, while PoE1 was the first.

 

Even I have just bought and finished Tyranny and Disco Elysium even if basically planned to buy them for years. I bought PoE2 semothing like 6 months after release. 

But I eventually bought all of them  

[kronozord]

On 10/4/2022 at 10:19 AM, Bosmer said:

If Josh wants to do a PoE3 we could expect development starting pretty soon, since Pentiment is about to release. However, if Josh doesn't yet feel like working on a deep RPG maybe someone in the current team of Avowed could pick this up. In that case, we would have to wait at least 2-3 years for development on PoE3 to start. In any case, I don't think it's impossible that we'll see our highly anticipated PoE3 one day

If Avowed is a success there is no reason for MS to spend resources in a POE3 instead of a Avowed2 if its not a success well the result is the same!

I think the most probable way for a POE3 to exist is for Baldurs Gate 3 (aka DOS3 with DnD ) to be a success and microsoft see market value in crpgs.

[Palatinus]

Rather than POE3, after the great success of BG3 (which is essentially DOS2 with D&D 5th edition rules applied at 60/70%), it would be better a Neverwinter Nights 3 fully 3D (unlike POE1-2) like (and better) than BG3, and turn based (or better yet with TB and RTWP like Pathfinder) , with DM toolset (which BG3 hasn't) and planned DLC /expansion (about with Larian is doubtful) and a future NWN:MMORPG based on D&D world (all settings have been yet written by WOTC, you must only build the 3D world and Microsoft would agree). 
 

[kanisatha]

On 8/12/2023 at 9:08 AM, Palatinus said:

Rather than POE3, after the great success of BG3 (which is essentially DOS2 with D&D 5th edition rules applied at 60/70%), it would be better a Neverwinter Nights 3 fully 3D (unlike POE1-2) like (and better) than BG3, and turn based (or better yet with TB and RTWP like Pathfinder) , with DM toolset (which BG3 hasn't) and planned DLC /expansion (about with Larian is doubtful) and a future NWN:MMORPG based on D&D world (all settings have been yet written by WOTC, you must only build the 3D world and Microsoft would agree).

No thanks. I don't want anything resembling BG3, and nothing to do with WotC. Obsidian's model for making good games is just fine, except for the recent 'first-person-only' thing they're doing.

[xzar_monty]

On 8/13/2023 at 4:28 PM, kanisatha said:

No thanks. I don't want anything resembling BG3, and nothing to do with WotC. Obsidian's model for making good games is just fine, except for the recent 'first-person-only' thing they're doing.

Also, and this is a matter of taste, I find "fully 3D" to just completely suck in games like this. I mean, Deadfire looks gorgeous but NWN and NWN2 are just poor. Yes, I know they're old, but 3D graphics get extremely repetitive in a hurry, and after that there's nothing to them at all. Also, the 3D viewpoint completely destroys the sense of controlling a group of charcaters, for me.

[Elric Galad]

Someone clever apparently gave Josh Sawyer a (justified) bonus to help him overcome his Deadfire trauma.

"Say it with an engraved watch"

 

[Boeroer]

That someone was Feargus.

[daven]

4 hours ago, Boeroer said:

That someone was Feargus.

Wonder if he gave him back his sanity for forcing ship battles and VO.

[Theory]

Originally I found pirate theme very childish (maybe some nostalgic to sidmeier's pirates but not enough) and didn't want to buy deadfire. And another reason was that I hadn't completed PoE which I tried dozen times to do blindly Triple Crown (best was act 3). It was like artsy movie or very intelligent book which I would love to be keen on but it wasn't. It didn't hook me.

Currently I just ****ed my trial of iron + veteran upscaled to last boss in deadfire and still continuing but this time with doing dlc's too (just finished bow and sss). I love the game and even pirate theme feels really well done and it has surpassed thoroughly my expectations but I didn't know that back then when I made purchase or not decision.

I'm playing thru gamepass.

[Sven_]

It's been six years last week, by the way.

A couple of ados:

- The carribean theme being a possible factor in underperformance is depressing as hell. I mean, this is the only genre left standing where announcing a product set in the zombie postapocalypse or during WWII would be seen as a risk. Says it all, really. Even if you're barely getting sick of elves&dwarves: Everybody is getting tired of their favourite meal when that is served 24/7. Unless they're a weirdo. In which case: great genre. Bad target audience.

- Currently playing The Outer Worlds. And whilst that also was a semi-budgeted affair, it is remarkable how much more it relies on cheap tricks to stretch its playing time. Currently exploring Monarch, and that almost feels like Owlcat Games. You know: Having spaces and then bombarding them with paste&copy mobs for you to mow down over and over and over again.

I know that Josh took the criticism as to PoE1 to heart and made his designers encourage to actually think of a REASON when putting combat into their design. Like: "Okay, why do you put those enemies there?" "They are meant to introduce the fauna of this place." But still remarkable.

Mind you, these games are and always will be murder hobo sims. But killing less than 1,000 enemies over a 40-50 hours campaign is still pretty low end for this type. That's ~20 kills per hour on average.  If Owlcat Games would have stats like these, there would be an integer error and the counter would re-start at zero at some point.  



Also, whilst the main quest is a bit conflicted/meh, Deadfire to me firlmy remains the most polished of all the major crowdfunded RPGs. At release, it was much too easy, admittedly. But that's been overhauled. It also remains the only one I've completed I think thrice. One time immediately after having finished it, just to try something out. As the main quest isn't a LOTR kind of epic done on a budget (and neither stretched to be such, see second point/paragraph), that is actually viable to do.

 

Deadfire is also one I'll be getting back to the in the future. And that precisely because of its setting and atmosphere. The moment where you are finished with your starting island and get your first ship to set off to adventure land -- that's the one making the game to me. It's like Monkey Island -- except in an RPG. Dwarves&elves my ass! I can get them from 9.99 out of 10 RPGs anyway.  

Deadfire indeed was good.


 

Edited May 13 by Sven_

[daven]

I don't think the marketing was there for it. Only us geeks who frequent this forum knew about it!

I didn't love the first game but I was still excited for this. The pirates theme was OK to me, it's a bit different.

[Lord_Mord]

The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that there is nothing wrong with the game, setting etc. They just ****ed up the marketing.

[Sven_]

How would you pitch it though? With behemoth franchises it's rather straight forward: "Oh, there's a new Star Wars movie / GTA game / Potter book!" All you have to do is getting the word out there. On a smaller scale, this applies to just about every Owlcat game as well: The first ever proper Pathfinder RPG! The first ever proper Rogue Trader RPG! That's the pitch. Apply it, and people will come.

The big pitch of PoE was the nostalgia "bait". Currently, SKALD on a smaller more niche scale also does this exceptionally well, I also LOVE this trailer, gets you totally pumped and seals the deal on offer (though calling SKALD mainly nostalgia bait would be underselling it).
 

 

However, what about Deadfire? Well, it's Pillars Part Deux. It's also larger, more pretty, and all that. And that's it? Assuming marketing was a big factor, Larian more recent did a lot right with BG3 in that regard. Yes, it also was a Dee and Dee game. But they didn't actually pitch their game to the public as a Cee Arr Pee Gee, capital letters. Rather, they marketed this as a game where anything goes -- (including that bear thing).

I'm not suggesting every game should be sold on the promise of optionally being humped by a bear, mind. Rather, in a competitive market of choice overload, simply getting the word out there of a bigger, prettier and more refined game may not be enough. There's various sequels that have suffered that way -- in parts, because they couldn't retain the audience of the first game 100% due to lack of exposure or else. In parts, because they didn't offer anything "exciting" for anybody else. Naturally, in a market of choice, product underperforming are always going to be a given.

 

Edited June 8 by Sven_

[Lord_Mord]

How? Nostalgia + larger, prettier

But the point is not how, but how much and where. I saw ads for PoE. I didn't see one single ad for PoE2. I would have been an excellent target for the FB algorithm, but nothing. I heard about it from this forum and this forum alone. It took years before it showed up on my steam account.

Then the odd choice of GoG. They could have known that Deadfire would not be easy to sell. Using it to "hype" GoG was not clever at all.

OMG. This forum is the only place where I have to use english. So my english skills degenerated in the past few years.

[Boeroer]

I guess you mean fig.co instead of GoG? Because what would be the problem with GoG as a selling platform? PoE was also on GoG. 

I think going with fig.co as a brand new quasi-pusblisher (because Feargus had stakes in it) didn't help either. It's dead by now by the way...

Edited June 10 by Boeroer

[Lord_Mord]

You are right. I meant fig. But wasn't that a kickstarter-like thing?

Edited June 13 by Lord_Mord

[Boeroer]

On 6/13/2024 at 10:38 AM, Lord_Mord said:

You are right. I meant fig. But wasn't that a kickstarter-like thing?

It was a mishmash of crowdfunding, crowdinvesting and publishing afaik. The most advertised feature (at last with Deadfire) was the possibility to invest in shares for possible profit.  

Edited June 14 by Boeroer
weird typo

[Lord_Mord]

Yes, that thing. That was incredibly dumb.

[yorname]

I wouldn't hate pirate theme if it's a new game, but when first time playing POE and 2 back to back, personally I just thought "They thought adding guns was a genius idea (it was) and when all out on it". The gameplay was great for me but "sold less" is something objective, probably what we (people are still here after these years) like just doesn't matter that much. It's been repeated too many times but if POE2 and DOS2 were listed side by side it's not a hard choice for a "new" player. Same thing for BG3. After all we're talking about why it wasn't as successful, not whether or not I think it's good.

If we put Deadfire, WotR and DOS2 together, I'd say people just like full 3D and being well-designed in specifically RTwP combat won't save it. I took a quick look at steamdb and both WotR and DOS2 have a 10x more currently playing compared to POE or Deadfire. Even DOS has a higher number than both.

[daven]

On 6/14/2024 at 10:49 AM, Lord_Mord said:

Yes, that thing. That was incredibly dumb.

I found POE2 by accident, didn't really hear anything about the fundraiser til near the end. The original game I followed for ages. They should have had the sexy female NPC's  more upfront in the marketing, and actual game. I can't remember the character names now but the emo elf chick. Should have pushed that.

[thelee]

On 7/6/2024 at 3:25 PM, daven said:

They should have had the sexy female NPC's  more upfront in the marketing, and actual game. I can't remember the character names now but the emo elf chick. Should have pushed that.

it's 2024, you don't need to push sexy female NPCs.

by which i mean if you spend any time in the BG3 subreddit, it's people thirsting for all the different NPCs, across the sexuality rainbow (including bear-shape-shifted Halsin). I half suspect that a significant portion of the BG3 player base is just there for Baldur's Gate 3: the Dating Sim, not BG3 the tactical crpg. (For example, discourse about Astarion is frequently extremely toxic and contentious (no spoilers, but it's related to his past and possible resolutions in the context of how people frame the romance).)

by contrast, both poe1 and deadfire are almost asexual.

Edited July 8 by thelee

[Masticator]

My opinion about why it sold less is people didn't really care for POE 1 that much even though they bought it. It wasn't as much like BG 1 and 2 as they expected. They mostly bought it for nostalgia reasons. And I think they may be right in some regards. POE 1 is a good game with good mechanics (though I still think the Might thing is kind of weird), but it has its shortcomings. I am just completing another run here shortly. And while I love the world building and the atmosphere, there are times the game gets on my nerves. There are areas where there is just too much fighting, and areas where there is too much dialogue. And there are also some weird difficulty spikes as well. And generally, this is a more difficult game than BG1 and 2 (though BG2 is the more difficult of the 2). Some people might have been put off by how difficult it is. And my last complaint about POE1 is it's too long. And yeah I know BG1 and 2 were also long games. Maybe my attention span has gone down as I've gotten older. But I prefer to play a shorter game multiple times over one overly long game.

 

I wish it had sold well. I certainly lost money being a fig investor. I guess you could say I paid a few hundred bucks for this game, that about sums it up. I did pay several hundred dollars for this game to get made. That said, I am glad it got made. It is a better game than POE2. Those shortcomings I mentioned above were mostly fixed in POE2, and it's a step up in nearly every direction other than perhaps companions. POE 1 did have better companions. And I like the brighter colors as well, it's not quite as dreary as the Dyrwood.