Alternative effect for "Brilliant"

[Phenomenum 913]

Have you any consensus about what is main vanilla Brilliant problem?

[Elric Galad 1,149]

10 hours ago, Phenomenum said:

Have you any consensus about what is main vanilla Brilliant problem?

I'm trying an honest report hereafter :

 

I think there is a clear consensus about Brilliant being too strong for casters. 6s tick restoring tier 9 is too much.

 

1) I think a majority agrees that having not all ticks restoring tier 9 would be good (% chance, cycling, whatever).

A minority thinks that capping it at Tier 3 would be a good solution, but I think it is a bit too harsh for a consensus (even if it is current BPM solution).

Note that an actual solution would have to work around technical constraints.

 

2) Everyone agrees that Brilliant is significantly stronger than other Tier 3. I don't think there is a consensus to consider it as a problem.

But that's why other solutions are being suggested.

 

3) I think there is consensus about Brilliant having OP combo with some spells : Barring Death Door, Unbending, Salvation of Time, Wall of Draining...

I think this should be addressed by tweaking these spells. BPM does it for SoT and WoD.

I don't think there is a consensus about nerfing Brilliant directly because of these spells.

Edited yesterday at 09:11 AM by Elric Galad

[Boeroer 15,196]

The first problem for me is that casters profit way more from it than other classes. 

The second problem (that is connected to the first) is that Brilliant lets you regain uses of Wall of Draining and Salvation of Time which both can be used to prolong Brilliant again - which is an OP cycle. 

I guess we all agree on that basically. Now there's just the question how to solve this.

Anyway: my question regarding "foe-only" Brilliant was answered. So thanks all. 

 

[Elric Galad 1,149]

11 hours ago, Noqn said:

No, there sadly is no such effect.

Edit: after some more thinking, I'm not going to try to make something out of this. It would be insanely convoluted or most likely impossible to implement for abilities that generate continuous attacks, such as beams or pulsing AoEs. I love the concept of anti-confusion, but @Elric Galad's current solution is already superb and not to mention infinitely cleaner implemented, so I feel like this is something I'd only do for the technical challenge.

My current solution is probably to be improved a bit, although I think simple impmentation should always been the way to go. There is way too much hidden consequences when using unusual ways. 

That said, if you really want to do such a thing, I would suggest creating a stand-alone mod with a high level new passive (or spell ???) providing this effect. It would certainly be fun to have around in the modding sphere. But it might be too much work so do as you please !

[Phenomenum 913]

Okay, Thank you. So the Question: IF i'll make separate ticks for casters and non-casters (for example, 6 sec. for non-casters and 9 sec. for casters)?

Regarding SoT. I think we have a working solution: we add a timer for SoT (20-30 sec., for example) and within this time duration SoT are not applicable for characters, who already have this effect - so you can't spam it. To compansate this, we can add a PL scaling to Beneficial Effects Duration Adj: basically, lvl 20 priest with Prestige and Xoti lantern will add 13 sec. duration).
I tested it yesterday - works as intended.

Of course, we have a BPM-version, but we tryin' to bring another solution, which will be close as possible to original ability.

Thoughts?

Edited yesterday at 10:17 AM by Phenomenum

[Elric Galad 1,149]

22 minutes ago, Phenomenum said:

Okay, Thank you. So the Question: IF i'll make separate ticks for casters and non-casters (for example, 6 sec. for non-casters and 9 sec. for casters)?

9s for casters wouldn't be my solution of choice. Still too strong with high level spells. And too defavorable for low level spell.
Many people, including @MaxQuesthave been thinking that having some tick capped and some other non capped, based on % chance or cycle would fit.

Currently, I'm leaning to :
- 6s tick +1 ressource up to Tier 3
- 18s tick +1 ressource up to Tier 9 (cumulative with previous one happening at 18s)
- No effect on initial tick (which would solve Tactician rebooting Brilliant to gain ressource faster) to compensate a bit for extra ressources generated this way.

This would be probably easy to implement (so more likely to be bug-free). I'm not 100% sure how the cumulative part at 18s would work.

There might be other solutions, just read the technical limitations I've found (there might be work around, but they won't be trivial) :

Alternative effect for "Brilliant" - Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Characters Builds, Strategies & the Unity Engine (Spoiler Warning!) - Obsidian Forum Community

 

Quote

Regarding SoT. I think we have a working solution: we add a timer for SoT (20-30 sec., for example) and within this time duration SoT are not applicable for characters, who already have this effect - so you can't spam it.
I tested it yesterday - works as intended.

Thoughts?

My version of SoT addresses it. The effect is basically to halve buff ellapsing speed instead of adding a flat 10s.
So no effect duration can be more than doubled.
I think it is quite clean.
There might be other solutions, but I would probably still prefer mine, unless somebody finds an issue with it.

I don't particularly like the "timer" part of your solution. But if it works, I don't see an issue with it. I just prefer mine

Edited yesterday at 10:26 AM by Elric Galad

[Phenomenum 913]

8 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

9s for casters wouldn't be my solution of choice. Still too strong with high level spells.

Ok, we can additionally restrict spell level to *whatever*

9 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Currently, I'm leaning to :
- 6s tick +1 ressource up to Tier 3
- 18s tick +1 ressource up to Tier 9 (cumulative with previous one happening at 18s)

I'm talking about two separate non-cumulative effects for casters and non-casters.

11 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

My version of SoT addresses it.

I know. I'm trying to get some feedback about other approach. 

[Elric Galad 1,149]

9 minutes ago, Phenomenum said:

Ok, we can additionally restrict spell level to *whatever*

I'm talking about two separate non-cumulative effects for casters and non-casters.

I know it is possible. But I was following another approach. (and I answered about what I thought about your suggestions). Edit :

"9s for casters wouldn't be my solution of choice. Still too strong with high level spells. And too defavorable for low level spell."

 

 

Quote

I know. I'm trying to get some feedback about other approach. 

Yup, I know that you edited your answer. I edited mine to give my feedback :

24 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I don't particularly like the "timer" part of your solution. But if it works, I don't see an issue with it. I just prefer mine

 

Edited yesterday at 10:48 AM by Elric Galad

[Jayd 95]

Sorry if this has been discussed already, but what about providing resources only on the initital application of Brilliant and not per tick through its duration? Like 2-3 pool points and/or 2-3 random spells? That way you can't get more resources by extending the effect (still get INT and power level). You have to re-apply Brilliant every time you want to get new resources (this might mean that any existing Brilliant buff would need to expire?).

[Phenomenum 913]

47 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Yup, I know that you edited your answer. I edited mine to give my feedback

To many "You". I know that you already modded these abilities, i know you happy with that and so on. But i want to try a different approach and want to listen OTHER people - not just how you already did everything. 

[Phenomenum 913]

1 minute ago, Jayd said:

but what about providing resources only on the initital application of Brilliant and not per tick through its duration? Like 2-3 pool points and/or 2-3 random spells? That way you can't get more resources by extending the effect (still get INT and power level). You have to re-apply Brilliant every time you want to get new resources (this might mean that any existing Brilliant buff would need to expire?).

Yes, that a good idea, but it have one flaw - in this variant Brilliant effect can't scale with INT. It will be just a flat bonus. Not sure this is good.

[Elric Galad 1,149]

1 hour ago, Phenomenum said:

To many "You". I know that you already modded these abilities, i know you happy with that and so on. But i want to try a different approach and want to listen OTHER people - not just how you already did everything. 

Yup, sorry about that. I gotta wait a bit and listen to what other say  

I will just give purely technical advice and stop talking about my version of things for a while   

1 hour ago, Jayd said:

Sorry if this has been discussed already, but what about providing resources only on the initital application of Brilliant and not per tick through its duration? Like 2-3 pool points and/or 2-3 random spells? That way you can't get more resources by extending the effect (still get INT and power level). You have to re-apply Brilliant every time you want to get new resources (this might mean that any existing Brilliant buff would need to expire?).

Will be an issue with Tactician who can "reboot himself".

The "Add n ressources" give back n spell from the same spell Tier. So if you add 3 ressources, you will be capped. 

Also I've experimentated this a bit for Ancestor's memory : I remember adding several duplicated "add 1 ressource" status, but somehow they conflicted and only added 1 ressource.

[Boeroer 15,196]

4 hours ago, Jayd said:

Sorry if this has been discussed already, but what about providing resources only on the initital application of Brilliant and not per tick through its duration? Like 2-3 pool points and/or 2-3 random spells? That way you can't get more resources by extending the effect (still get INT and power level). You have to re-apply Brilliant every time you want to get new resources (this might mean that any existing Brilliant buff would need to expire?).

I like that as a general idea. It solves more problems than it creates I think. The rest of the Brillant buff (+1 PL, +5 INT) would still apply for the whole duration. But since ths will male Brilliant weaker I would give +3 PL instead of +1. Also because the RES-afflictions cause a -3 PL malus so the number 3 doesn't seem too outlandish.

Tactician: maybe one can make it so that a new appliance of Brilliant only prolongs the duration of an existing Brilliant inspiration - and then gives you no resources. Only if you are not Brilliant already you'll get the resources/spells. Sure, one can try to get Brilliant, then unflank an enemy -> Brilliant stops - reflank -> Brilliant again... but it would be a lot of hassle and maybe that's enough already? 

Edited yesterday at 03:44 PM by Boeroer

[SArgentus 11]

If the Tactician bonus was set to a short Briliant buff (6 secs?) that doesn't get cleared by the requirements no longer being fulfilled, the cheese should no longer be possible.

[Phenomenum 913]

Or if we set a short cooldown (a some sort of immunity when effect is cleared), when Brilliant can't be applicated to target.

@Boeroer i'd like to hear your opinion, regarding various SoT variants (because it connected to Brilliant problem).

Edited yesterday at 07:08 PM by Phenomenum

[SArgentus 11]

6 minutes ago, Phenomenum said:

Or if we set a short cooldown (a some sort of immunity when effect is cleared), when Brilliant can't be applicated to target

I've played around quite a bit with cooldown effects back when I wanted to expand on the Black Jacket subclass - it can work, but it's either very obscure to the player or very ugly in the UI - but by any means, it's worth trying multiple fixes to see how it behaves

[Phenomenum 913]

3 minutes ago, SArgentus said:

I've played around quite a bit with cooldown effects back when I wanted to expand on the Black Jacket subclass - it can work, but it's either very obscure to the player or very ugly in the UI - but by any means, it's worth trying multiple fixes to see how it behaves

Yes, it is...

[Boeroer 15,196]

25 minutes ago, Phenomenum said:

Or if we set a short cooldown (a some sort of immunity when effect is cleared), when Brilliant can't be applicated to target.

@Boeroer i'd like to hear your opinion, regarding various SoT variants (because it connected to Brilliant problem).

I will always oppose cooldowns. They are unelegant imo and also require additional attention.

[Phenomenum 913]

7 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I will always oppose cooldowns. They are unelegant imo and also require additional attention.

Ok, i get it.