Politics US Edition (2021!)

[Amentep]

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1 hour ago, IndiraLightfoot said:

@Gromnir I just read that US lawyers are looking into the possibility of suing Donald in civil court after he (hopefully) steps down as president, holding him liable for his role before the Capitol Hill debacle and even during and after it. What is the outlook for this legally? 

 

55 minutes ago, Malcador said:

https://www.nme.com/en_au/news/music/iced-earth-singer-jon-schaffer-among-trump-supporters-who-stormed-capitol-2851835

I'm more surprised Mustaine wasn't there.

 

26 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

Florida manatee with 'Trump' scraped into back spurs a federal investigation

Can the animals be left out of this madness? They don't even vote.

 

 

[Gromnir]

@IndiraLightfoot

the problem is the brandenburg test we mentioned earlier.

am thinking is ez to show trump's speech at his rally and his behaviours after constitutes negligence, but 'cause is speech, particular political speech even if outrageous, a court is gonna apply brandenburg.

 

if this were not a political speech case where a speaker is accused o' encouraging an individual (mob of individuals) to break the law or do harm to another, we might be able to get around brandenburg. there has been a couple cases where individuals following the advice o' tv or radio personalities do something inane, or foolish which led to the injury/death o' another and the speech o' the disc jockey/tv pundit were not protected. were no social interest in preserving the speaker's interest simply 'cause the harm they caused were the result o' speech rather than actions. 

however, is tough to see a standard adopted other than brandenburg unless somebody gets creative in a way we do not foresee. trump's speech, assuming it is negligent, would be creating liability precisely 'cause he were convincing his minions to do harm and/or engage in illegal activity. 

the self pardon aspect from our earlier video clip post is noteworthy. admissions is always relevant and even overcome the hearsay exception when applicable. if trump pardons self to try and avoid criminal liability, then he may make himself more vulnerable to civil. functional admission.

most significant, though not strict speaking a matter o' law, a cop is dead. that makes a difference. this is a situation where most members o' a jury is gonna wanna punish somebody. show proof know beforehand 'bout dangers. we would be surprised if intelligence agencies didn't include in a written briefing the dangers surrounding his rally and the possibility o' violence, but that is just conjecture. trump says inappropriate things all the time. get a witness to share what amounts to an admission or what would amount to trump's state of mind at rally or immediate after is gonna be damning on multiple levels.

we can see impeachment affecting civil cases. technical there is no 5th amendment right against self incrimination in an impeachment unless Congress says there is, and am doubting democrat Congress goes far to protect trump. have an impeachment trial after trump leaves office and he won't be able to claim any sorta protections o' the office and there won't be some kinda national security concern which would prevent him from being grilled for hours on end on the floor o' the senate for all the world to see... which may not be a good thing as could be a national embarrassment.  having seen and heard and read trump depositions, am only imagining what kinda stoopid trump will say when cross examined by some o' the more skilled ex-prosecutors in the senate. wait to pursue a civil cause o' action until after an impeachment trial 'cause trump is gonna say stuff you wouldn't be able to get through interrogatories or depositions.

am not a tort guy per se, but our initial inclination is that if am considering a civil case, we would wait to see if there is an impeachment trial. let Congress do the heavy lifting.

HA! Good Fun!

ps from a practical pov, if trump cannot dismiss, then he does everything possible to settle.

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Gromnir

[Gromnir]

3 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

we would be surprised if intelligence agencies didn't include in a written briefing the dangers surrounding his rally and the possibility o' violence, but that is just conjecture.

well, that was quick

FBI report warned of ‘war’ at Capitol, contradicting claims there was no indication of looming violence

“As of 5 January 2021, FBI Norfolk received information indicating calls for violence in response to ‘unlawful lockdowns’ to begin on 6 January 2021 in Washington. D.C.,” the document says. “An online thread discussed specific calls for violence to include stating ‘Be ready to fight. Congress needs to hear glass breaking, doors being kicked in, and blood from their BLM and Pantifa slave soldiers being spilled. Get violent. Stop calling this a march, or rally, or a protest. Go there ready for war. We get our President or we die. NOTHING else will achieve this goal.”

will be interesting to see how far up the food chain such intelligence went.

HA! Good Fun!

[Hurlshort]

@Malcador Dave Mustaine? I just read an interview with him based in your comment. Sounds like he is just a regular grumpy guy that hates all politicians, so I don't think he would be marching for Trump.

[ComradeYellow]

^ That.  A friend of mine went to one his concerts in 2016 and he made it clear that he wanted absolutely no political BS at the show (some attendees were wearing T-shirts that said "Kill Trump".)

Edited January 12, 2021 by ComradeMaster

[rjshae]

 

Quote

 

Florida manatee with 'Trump' scraped into back spurs a federal investigation

Can the animals be left out of this madness? They don't even vote.

 

I'm sure they'll blame Antifa for that too.

[Boeroer]

“The beauty is gone when you see Americans sleeping on sidewalks and it makes me sick to think we have **** in this country letting ****ing Mexicans in. Who needs this ****?”

https://news.avclub.com/dave-mustaine-thinks-obama-staged-the-shootings-in-colo-1798232868

Wouldn't have surprised me if Dave Mustaine was at the capitol. But he's a big fan of Santorum and Santorum didn't like that, so maybe not. Maybe Billy Corgan was there? Ach... I used to really like The Smashing Pumpkins when I was young. Morrissey, too. Damn...

[Zoraptor]

It's somewhat speculative. That there will be a negative effect isn't seriously in dispute though, just how much it will be- and when it will kick in.

You certainly cannot draw any conclusions from Twitter's stock price to either support or disprove Trump being banned having an effect, yet, I agree, but you can't really draw many conclusions from Twitter's stock prices full stop. It's too soon with the ban itself driving a lot of interest and engagement; and more importantly Twitter's stock price is fundamentally not connected to its economic reality at the moment, if it ever has been. It's gone up by 50% or whatever, while making a loss of 1.3Bn. The stock price is simply not connected to reality, it's operating on Confidence and free money pretty much entirely, and in that climate the only real speculation that can be made is what will prick the bubble and whether losing their most prominent user by some distance will be the needle that does it.

Yes, Twitter makes most of its money advertising via companies on its platform, practically that's how all SM services, Google search, and the vast majority of 'free' services make their money. But people don't go there- or Facebook or Bing or Gmail- because they want to be served ads. They go there for other reasons, with the ads usually being an annoyance and the trick being to get ads to people who won't find them an annoyance but useful. In that respect Twitter's engagement level is fundamentally poor compared to other SM. As with all SM, users that don't engage with advertisers are still a net positive as well, so long as they remain users instead of functionally defunct accounts. If it cost anything much at all to maintain users SM would be purging them regularly, as it is Twitter is replete with bots and the like and it's- for example- close to impossible to get FB to actually delete an account, unless you're in Europe maybe. That's because even if you don't click on the ads you can be monetised in other ways, up to a point. But Twitter's problem is that everyone else major does that a lot better and more profitably than them. That doesn't matter so much when money is cheap, it matters a great deal when the strings tighten though.

 

[Malcador]

8 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

@Malcador Dave Mustaine? I just read an interview with him based in your comment. Sounds like he is just a regular grumpy guy that hates all politicians, so I don't think he would be marching for Trump.

Oh yah, I don't think he'd be the kind of cultist to do that nonsense.  Was more a joke on some of the lyrics in Megadeth's songs - guess Washington was next

[Gromnir]

Joint Chiefs call riot a ‘direct assault’ on the constitutional process, affirm Biden as next commander in chief

“As service members, we must embody the values and ideals of the nation,” the Joint Chiefs said. “We support and defend the Constitution. Any act to disrupt the constitutional process is not only against our traditions, values, and oath; it is against the law.”

the joint chiefs of staff release a statement which includes a warning against acts of sedition by military personnel. the joint chiefs felt the need to make such a statement and make it public.

so, is this situation serious yet?

[Zoraptor]

Full article from Glenn Greenwald re Parler and big tech etc, as per the tweet from yesterday. Pretty good read overall, though likely to fall on deaf ears from corporate apologists.

He does confirm that 'no users of Parler were arrested' was referring to those initially arrested on the day, which is far more realistic than none full stop.

 

 

[Malcador]

Well, he confirms a Parler executive said so.  Sort of a silly point to use, given how few they've arrested on day where the cops did so much wrong and how many actually should have been. But yeah, decent article, always sort of hate the tone he writes in, heh, though not as bad as Fisk.

Edited January 13, 2021 by Malcador

[Zoraptor]

Would be a pretty pointless lie to make though. At least under normal circumstances.

Of course the fundamental problem with Parler providing any such statement is that they cannot prove a negative- but then there's exactly the same amount of actual evidence so far that they were on Parler as that they weren't. The person making the assertion has to provide the evidence so ultimately it's up to 'you' as the royal you to show Parler was being used, not them to prove it wasn't.

Which conveniently for one viewpoint or the other cannot happen now that Parler is in the digital shredder. Would anyone take a bet that none of the 13 publicly identified people were on Twitter/ FB though? We outright know for sure some were, and that's the contrast he's going for illustrating. The 'irony' is that no one can independently check whether Parler was being used for organising protests, violence or riots nor if the 13 arrested were on the platform because those making the accusations- Google, Apple, AWS- are also those blocking access to the evidence.

[Malcador]

Yep, just nitpicking.  There is the chunk (well or all) of the data they were scraping from the site, so not all lost.  Pretty brutal oversight with their 2FA, if that's how it worked.  I suppose these people will be moving on to Telegram.

[Hurlshort]

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

https://gizmodo.com/parler-users-breached-deep-inside-u-s-capitol-building-1846042905

Assuming it is legit (and I have no reason to believe it isn't) Parler users were definitely out in force on Jan 6th. And dumb enough to bring their phones as well as go in unmasked.

Skimming through Greenwald's screed has me laughing, we've seen the increasing authoritarianism of both the state and corporations for years (with effective social media monopoly and subsequent tyranny being the least offender) but it's only a big deal when some dip**** with a large following gets caught up in it. I've seen countless activists, sex workers, and ****posters get their social media accounts suspended because of malicious mass reporting or spurious claims but only when Twitter finally bans an account that they've been bending their own rules to avoid banning do the free speech brigade swoop in to declare their stand against such foul authoritarianism. Like our resident goblins calling for social media to be nationalized, it stinks of opportunism and self-interest (the same as silicon valley ghouls ignoring or enabling right wing extremism until it blows up) and makes me think that even if this person is correct in this instance that they can't be trusted to work with on it.

[Zoraptor]

OK, now let's see them do the same metadata analysis for Twitter and Facebook. Oh wait, can't, since they haven't been, lol, "hacked through legal means"- a phrase that doesn't exactly scream legitimacy. I'll admit, some of my stridency on this is because of how utterly useless FB was over Brenton Tarrant and how they still had video of the mosque shooting up months and months later- but they never faced any consequences beyond Jacinda Ardern and Emmanuel Macron waggling their fingers and looking concerned.

Greenwald is about as left as you can get politically, and he's been persistently strident about freedom of information issues eg his work with wikileaks. You can hardly expect him to defend every prostitute or activist though, unsurprisingly it's only a big story when, well, it's a big story- and some random getting suspended ain't a big story.

Meh, put people wanting SM nationalised into the same camp as those who want protesters met with a hail of bullets and mass trials for high treason- too emotionally challenged by events to think about what they're actually saying. Any sensible person wants internet access turned into a utility, and big tech broken up.

Edited January 13, 2021 by Zoraptor

[Elerond]

https://cybernews.com/news/70tb-of-parler-users-messages-videos-and-posts-leaked-by-security-researchers/

You can try to download all messages from Twitter and Facebook and look if they have left similar meta data there. Facebook started to claim that it removes location data from pictures and videos after it was revealed that thieves had used them to locate target to rob by looking house which owners are on vacation. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, Zoraptor said:

OK, now let's see them do the same metadata analysis for Twitter and Facebook

It would turn out similar, and I believe that Facebook's own data shows most people who joined extremist groups did when recommended by Facebook algorithms. This is a separate issue from how the "free-speech" forks of social media end up being hivsa of reactionaries plotting heinous ****, which Parler now has in common with 8chan, Voat, and Gab.

1 hour ago, Zoraptor said:

Greenwald is about as left as you can get politically

Greenwald is a soft-libertarian who supported the Iraq war before his come to Jesus moment. If it wasn't for his ambivalence towards Trump, his political alignment would be near identical to our good buddy Gromnir.

1 hour ago, Zoraptor said:

You can hardly expect him to defend every prostitute or activist though, unsurprisingly it's only a big story when, well, it's a big story- and some random getting suspended ain't a big story.

I'm not expecting him to condemn every instance of suspension simply because the sheer volume makes it impossible. I'm saying I can't take it seriously when I've seen (near)silence for years when it was happening to people who weren't major politicians.

1 hour ago, Zoraptor said:

Meh, put people wanting SM nationalised into the same camp as those who want protesters met with a hail of bullets and mass trials for high treason- too emotionally challenged by events to think about what they're actually saying. Any sensible person wants internet access turned into a utility, and big tech broken up.

You can put all of those things together as stuff that won't happen within the legal framework of the US (and much of Europe) without a militant labor movement at minimum.

[Gromnir]

the assume they are all liars presumption didn't last long 'round here, eh? predictable false indignation and hypocrisy.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Raithe]

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/thirteen-charged-federal-court-following-riot-united-states-capitol

Well, it is kind of interesting to see how they go about charging these people.

Quote

Thirteen individuals have been charged with federal crimes. The defendants and charges are outlined below:

1.     Cleveland Meredith was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with making interstate threats to Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
2.     Richard Barnett, of Arkansas, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful entry; violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds; and theft of public money, property, or records. Barnett allegedly entered a restricted area of the Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi.
3.     Lonnie Coffman, of Alabama, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with possession of an unregistered firearm (destructive device) and carrying a pistol without a license. It is alleged that Coffman’s vehicle contained 11 explosive devices known as Molotov ****tails and firearms. It is further alleged he was in possession of two firearms. Coffman was arrested and is currently being held. His detention hearing is scheduled for Jan. 12, 2021.
4.     Mark Leffingwell, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority; assault on a federal law enforcement officer; and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds. Leffingwell allegedly entered the Senate side of the Capitol and when stopped by law enforcement, struck an officer in the helmet and chest. Leffingwell is currently being held and has a detention hearing in district court today.
5.     Christopher Alberts, of Maryland, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with carrying or having readily accessible, on the grounds of the United States Capitol Building, a firearm and ammunition. Specifically a Taurus G2C, 9mm handgun and 9mm caliber ammunition. The defendant appeared in district court and was released. He has a preliminary hearing scheduled for Jan. 28, 2021.
6.     Joshua Pruitt, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority. The defendant appeared in district court and was released. He has a preliminary hearing scheduled for Jan. 28, 2021.
7.     Matthew Council, of Florida, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds. Council allegedly unlawfully entered the Capitol building, and when stopped by law enforcement, he pushed the officer.
8.     Cindy Fitchett, of Virginia, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority; or knowingly, with intent to impede government business or official functions, engaging in disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds; and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds.  
9.     Michael Curzio, of Florida, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority; or knowingly, with intent to impede government business or official functions, engaging in disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds; and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds.
10.     Douglas Sweet, of Florida, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority; or knowingly, with intent to impede government business or official functions, engaging in disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds; and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds.
11.     Bradley Ruskelas, of Illinois, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority; or knowingly, with intent to impede government business or official functions, engaging in disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds; and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds.
12.     Terry Brown, of Pennsylvania, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority; or knowingly, with intent to impede government business or official functions, engaging in disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds; and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds.
13.     Thomas Gallagher was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority; or knowingly, with intent to impede government business or official functions, engaging in disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds; and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds.

Edited January 13, 2021 by Raithe

[Zoraptor]

6 hours ago, Elerond said:

https://cybernews.com/news/70tb-of-parler-users-messages-videos-and-posts-leaked-by-security-researchers/

You can try to download all messages from Twitter and Facebook and look if they have left similar meta data there.

While that may be somewhat of a facetious suggestion I at least literally couldn't. It would take me 50 years- yep, literally- to download even Parler's relatively puny 70 TB with my data cap. At least by that time 70 TB of storage for the data would be cheap hopefully, but the relevance would certainly be gone.

6 hours ago, KaineParker said:

I'm not expecting him to condemn every instance of suspension simply because the sheer volume makes it impossible. I'm saying I can't take it seriously when I've seen (near)silence for years when it was happening to people who weren't major politicians.

There's been plenty of talk about it. But it's like anything, it will only get actual attention when it happens to someone 'important'.

Kim and Kanye get burgled, big news. You or I get burgled, lucky if the police turn up.

[Guard Dog]

The Republicans are losing registered voters in several states. This from PA: Republicans In Pennsylvania Changing Party Registration Following Deadly Insurrection At US Capitol – CBS Philly (cbslocal.com)

I have to say I am surprised at recent events. Political power in the US is like a pendulum.  It swings from left to right and back again. Never long enough on one side for either to do much. I ALWAYS figured one side or the other would one day attempt to grab the pendulum and break the clock. But I always assumed it would be the Democrats and the left. They already have a real strong totalitarian bent. They ruthlessly punish dissenting thought in their caucus. They favor an almighty state that regulates everything it does not control. Now that description suits the GOP as well, if not better. 

So, don't talk to me about "lesser evils". There aren't any. 

[ComradeYellow]

6 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

The Republicans are losing registered voters in several states. This from PA: Republicans In Pennsylvania Changing Party Registration Following Deadly Insurrection At US Capitol – CBS Philly (cbslocal.com)

So, don't talk to me about "lesser evils". There aren't any. 

Just because Republicans are Bad, doesn't mean Democrats (in their current state anyway) are Good.

I'd say it's up to us 3rd party enthusiasts to spread this message.

[Guard Dog]

14 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

Just because Republicans are Bad, doesn't mean Democrats (in their current state anyway) are Good.

I'd say it's up to us 3rd party enthusiasts to spread this message.

Tell you the truth my friend I’m not real enthusiastic about any third parties either. 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Guard Dog