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Politics US Edition (2021!)


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9 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

I feel like I'm really missing out without Trump being on Twitter for all this

I feel your pain

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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Call of Duty marketing is getting nuts these days.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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That rifle has no sights on it. She probably couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn more than 20 m away

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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On 1/13/2021 at 3:11 PM, Achilles said:

You're attacking the analogy rather than addressing the point.

The fact is that people *can* want "bad" things and sometimes the rule of law is necessary to compel them to "right action". Sometimes people needs rules that compel others from acting against them. Sometimes people need rules to compel them to act in their own best interest.

So again, it's "good government or bad government". "Too far" belongs in the "bad government" bucket...but you and I would need to agree on what "too far" means.

I rest my case.

I don’t think the rule of law is there so much to compel right action as to punish wrong actions. It what is good or bad really comes down to your own definition of them. My own opinion only Bad = any action that deliberately harms another person or runs the risk of doing so past the point of reasonable acceptance. And by harm I mean not just their person but also property. This is what law and law enforcement is about at its corps. Protect the humans from the other humans by punishing the ones who hurt them. Drunk driving for example places every motorist and pedestrian you pass at unacceptable risk. So it must be punished.

But where the law goes too far is when it tries to protect you from yourself. Smoking marijuana is illegal. But seriously who gives a damn if you are sitting in your living room or even on a public park for example bothering no one. 
 

Prostitution for example is illegal. Why? All it is is a private business transaction between two consenting adults. 
 

Occupational licensing. Do you really think your state and local government give a damn about your safety? This is all about fleecing people who were looking to start a business. Right now I am a minority owner and a real estate and landscape remediation business. Why do we have to get down on our knees and humbly beg the state of Tennessee, Shelby and Tipton County’s, and the state of Mississippi for their blessing to conduct private business. and that blessing cost money. Why? I can except that there is a compelling public interest in the proper storage of hazardous materials, in the case of restaurants in the cleanliness of their locations. I certainly would have no qualms with requiring inspections that the restaurants would pay to have done. Why do they need a license on top of that? It’s all about money. Governments at any level are no different than the greedy corporations they tell you to be afraid of. All they care about is goddamn money. Only they don’t earn it, they take it by compulsion. 
 

you are right. There are bad people out there and it is the governments job to protect and punish. But I am a firm believer that no victim equals no crime. And no society cannot be a victim.

Just my $0.02

 

EDIT: this entire post was done via speech to text. I tried to enunciate clearly but Siri did the best she could with my accent. Any problems with grammar or spelling is all on her!

Edited by Guard Dog
Speech to text screwed me

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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19 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

HoonDing == oby.

Though oby would have somehow contrived to find an AK variant with a stars&stripe paintjob.

Well, the woman is Rep. Lauren Boebert so it's not totally out of nowhere.  

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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2 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

I don’t think the rule of law is there so much to compel right action as to punish wrong actions. It what is good or bad really comes down to your own definition of them. My own opinion only Bad = any action that deliberately harms another person or runs the risk of doing so past the point of reasonable acceptance. And by harm I mean not just their person but also property. This is what law and law enforcement is about at its corps. Protect the humans from the other humans by punishing the ones who hurt them. Drunk driving for example places every motorist and pedestrian you pass at unacceptable risk. So it must be punished.

But where the law goes too far is when it tries to protect you from yourself. Smoking marijuana is illegal. But seriously who gives a damn if you are sitting in your living room or even on a public park for example bothering no one. 
 

Prostitution for example is illegal. Why? All it is is a private business transaction between two consenting adults. 
 

Occupational licensing. Do you really think your state and local government give a damn about your safety? This is all about fleecing people who were looking to start a business. Right now I am a minority owner and a real estate and landscape remediation business. Why do we have to get down on our knees and humbly beg the state of Tennessee, Shelby and Tipton County’s, and the state of Mississippi for their blessing to conduct private business. and that blessing cost money. Why? I can except that there is a compelling public interest in the proper storage of hazardous materials, in the case of restaurants in the cleanliness of their locations. I certainly would have no qualms with requiring inspections that the restaurants would pay to have done. Why do they need a license on top of that? It’s all about money. Governments at any level are no different than the greedy corporations they tell you to be afraid of. All they care about is goddamn money. Only they don’t earn it, they take it by compulsion. 
 

you are right. There are bad people out there and it is the governments job to protect and punish.

I'm 99% sure that I've already recommended The Empathy Gap by J.D. Trout to you, but just in case I haven't....

I don't think there's anything wrong with recognizing that human are awful at certain forms of reasoning. Furthermore, I don't think there's anything wrong with building systems that act like a corrective, just as someone with poor eyesight might wear glasses to see better.

Most of the examples that you provide above are things that we agree on. The difference is that you use them as an argument for less government and I use them as an argument for better government.

Quote

But I am a firm believer that no victim equals no crime. And no society cannot be a victim.

Come on, man. I know you've read Hobbes.

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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3 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Well, the woman is Rep. Lauren Boebert so it's not totally out of nowhere.  

If you haven't seen the tantrum she threw last Wednesday before things got rough, you probably owe it to yourself to find it. She's a world class wingnut.

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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2 minutes ago, Achilles said:

If you haven't seen the tantrum she threw last Wednesday before things got rough, you probably owe it to yourself to find it. She's a world class wingnut.

Certainly passionate about it. 

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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45 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

EDIT: this entire post was done via speech to text. I tried to enunciate clearly but Siri did the best she could with my accent. Any problems with grammar or spelling is all on her!

Whew!  I thought something might have been wrong, glad its just speech to text!

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28 minutes ago, Achilles said:

 

Come on, man. I know you've read Hobbes.

I have. And came to entirely different conclusions than he did on just about everything. Particular ideas about social contract.

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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9 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

I have. And came to entirely different conclusions than he did on just about everything. Particular ideas about social contract.

So if your neighbors misplace some chickens and decide that you stole them, then you’re fine with them rounding up a posse to execute mob justice against you?

Because if you think the proper course of action is for them to call the cops (who would then most likely conduct an investigation and determine your assumed innocence), then you’re actually a big fan of the social contract

Edited by Achilles
Typo

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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1 minute ago, Achilles said:

So if your neighbors misplace some chickens and decide that you stole, then you’re fine with them rounding up a posse to execute mob justice against you?

Because if you think the proper course of action is for them to call the cops (who would then most likely conduct an investigation and determine your assumed innocence), then you’re actually a big fan of the social contract

LOL, I never said these things could be dispensed with entirely. I thought I’ve made that clear but maybe I’m not making my points clearly enough. My biggest contention with Hobbs particularly in leviathan is the proper role of the crown and commonwealth to establish and direct the order of society. I would much prefer a system where that kind of thing grows organically constrained by a few rules enforced by the state. Not unlike the society we have just with a lighter touch.

anyway the discussion, while certainly interesting, is entirely academic. We have the society we have and if some of us would have it differently that would not make it so. And it’s not terrible.

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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GD always reminds me of this

 

 

😄

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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lmao, Deus Ex will never get old, but also, yes, I did not know Guard Dog was in Deus Ex

 

Outgoing administration looting the White House before they leave?

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Put fascists and sociopaths on your ignore list.

Quote

Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

 

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14 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

LOL, I never said these things could be dispensed with entirely.

viscous circle insanity continues. once again, who decides which stuff gets dispensed with and what is important?  gd wants the untrustworthy and corrupt government to protect those rights and further goals he deems important... important enough. current we got representative democracy as the means by which the important stuff is identified. the government, our government, decides.

so, who should decide? democracy isn't working for gd save for when government decisions align with gd choices. untrustworthy and corrupt. 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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According to some of the posts in that thread, the items that were loaned to the White House for this administration are being returned to their respective government agencies. I really hope that's what we're seeing

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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Exclusive footage of the Biden transition team cleaning out the White House

 

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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4 minutes ago, Achilles said:

According to some of the posts in that thread, the items that were loaned to the White House for this administration are being returned to their respective government agencies. I really hope that's what we're seeing

Well they wouldn't be the first administration accused of stealing goods from the White House. Remember this?

Trump Ended 2018 France Trip Having Art Loaded on Air Force One

Turned out the art was fake. Heh.

"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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3 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

viscous circle insanity continues. once again, who decides which stuff gets dispensed with and what is important?  gd wants the untrustworthy and corrupt government to protect those rights and further goals he deems important... important enough. current we got representative democracy as the means by which the important stuff is identified. the government, our government, decides.

so, who should decide? democracy isn't working for gd save for when government decisions align with gd choices. untrustworthy and corrupt. 

HA! Good Fun!

Oh for god’s sweet sake I have not ever argued against democracy? The whole point of discussing governing philosophy like this is to try and persuade people to see things your way so they’ll vote for things that are different than they are. In fact I believe somebody using my screen name has been arguing against compulsion of any kind for many years now. I am against compelling people to serve in the military, I’m against compelling people to follow moral codes they don’t choose for themselves. I am against compelling people to do business with only insurance companies of the government’s choosing. I am against compelling people to give up private property or mitigate free speech. So you somehow believe I’m in favor of compelling them to follow a government that I like just because I like it? I think taxation is theft but I still pony up every goddamn year. I think abortion is murder but I would never dream of telling someone they couldn’t have one. If voters in their  caprice votes for one thing or another to be taken away than the individual is confronted with two choices. Obey the law or don’t. But the one thing you can always do is try and talk to people and persuade them to vote a different way next time. That really is the point of Internet discussions isn’t it? Other than their entertainment value. Hell even if you offered me absolute power to order society as I see fit right this very moment I would turn you down. Like I told Achilles we have the society we have because this is what people wanted. Maybe I would’ve had it different but it’s not terrible as it is.

of course I guess we could always put on a pair or horns grab a confederate flag and storm the capital. But that’s not really my style. Like I said I’m not into compulsion one way or another.

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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17 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Oh for god’s sweet sake I have not ever argued against democracy? 

glad you put the question mark. the point is you don't recognize the disconnect. you appear to balk at criticizing the democratic process, but you lament the inevitable and intended results. am recalling you rail against a nj prohibition against eating/drinking by a driver in moving vehicles as an attack on liberty and no business o' the government... the government of, by and for the people. 

you never seem to connect how the offenses o' government you most often cite is the result o' the freaking democratic process working as designed. 

sheesh.

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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