Politics... US election edition (2020 almost over, read all about it!)

[rjshae]

1 minute ago, Amentep said:

Federal charges, i think, so Trump could pardon them...

Yes, very likely. The FBI "deep state" should withhold their names until after Jan. 20th.

[Elerond]

Police seems to have different approach to these things in 2021 than they had in 2020

Looks like some people didn't read their master's tweets

From "kneeling during national anthem being insult towards USA's flag and military" to

Guesses will this fine impartial real news journalist from the Blaze get visit from FBI any time soon, considering that he tweets having access to information that is classified. 

[Gorgon]

The great storm of morons. 

[Malcador]

1 minute ago, Gorgon said:

The great storm of morons. 

Disappointed by the lack of tacticool crap, to be honest.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Malcador

[Gorgon]

Trump just shot himself in the foot though. All of his cronies with any political ambition left will have to disavow him. Sending in his goombahs after a rabble rousing speech. There is no pretense left, no fig leaf. 

[Hurlshort]

[Amentep]

1 hour ago, rjshae said:

Yes, very likely. The FBI "deep state" should withhold their names until after Jan. 20th.

As I understand it  he can pardon a group of people without naming them individually (like the pardon for Vietnam era draft dodgers, or Confederate soldiers)

[Hiro Protagonist]

I was never a huge fan of George W Bush but he was, and I think remains, a statesman. This is his comment reported in the Guardian:

Former president George W. Bush condemned rioters who stormed the Capitol and the politicians who “inflamed them.”

“This is how election results are disputed in a banana republic — not our democratic republic. I am appalled by the reckless behavior of some political leaders since the election,” Bush said in a statement.

Bush, who did not mention Trump or any other politician by name, said the people who attacked the Capitol had their “passions inflamed by falsehoods and false hopes.”

Calling it an insurrection, Bush implored those disappointed by the outcome of the presidential election to put country over “the politics of the moment.”

[melkathi]

2 hours ago, rjshae said:

Last hurrah for the far right extremist groups I suppose. They know that once Trump is gone, their brand of bigotry will once again no longer be tolerated.

Nothing they did ever was a last hurrah. Biden already said he wanted to heal the divide. So once again, they will forgive and move on, and in doing so prove to the far right they just need to bide their time for the next thing.

[rjshae]

47 minutes ago, melkathi said:

Nothing they did ever was a last hurrah. Biden already said he wanted to heal the divide. So once again, they will forgive and move on, and in doing so prove to the far right they just need to bide their time for the next thing.

I was merely attempting to capture their motivation; certainly they will still be around fomenting their political goals. But without a demagogue to champion their cause, there's not much hope for them to succeed.

[rjshae]

If Trump had the slightest scrap of decency, he'd resign after this fiasco. But if he actually  did, this would be a very different presidency and the scene today would never have happened. This is the price we pay for electing a mentally-ill man to the office.  I continue to look forward to Jan. 20th.

Edited January 7, 2021 by rjshae
Grammar correction

[BruceVC]

4 hours ago, bugarup said:

Kinda looks like some con of sorts -- neckbeards, cosplayers...

 

This really made me laugh, I have to say the whole " cosplay"  comparison is very apt 

[Elerond]

 

[Zoraptor]

Meh, not much of a difference really, I'm pretty sure they think AP sucks as well as CNN. After all, many of them won't even like Fox News for being too liberal or whatever.

I have to admit, there's a great deal of schadenfreude to be felt over the pearl clutching about protesters storming the US Capitol given all the revolutions the CIA has and had been sponsoring, often against democratically elected leaders. Not so great when the shoe is on the other foot, hmm.

[Gromnir]

9 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Its a disgrace how long it took Trump to comment on this violence and criminal behavior ...and it wasnt even a real admonishment of the anarchy 

And as Hoonding mentioned now Pence needs a real security unit  to be escorted from the building 

not only does bruce misrepresent what happened in portland, but he ignores what were the criticisms o' police actions during the summer protests.

other than a few board anarchists, the objection hereabouts (and  elsewhere) o' police efforts in places such as portland were not 'bout police stopping illegal behavior. arrest actual vandals and trespassers? fine. good. the criticism were two-fold:

1) the fed had no authority to take the actions in which they engaged.

2) too many people being attacked by fed police were not committing crimes when they were detained assaulted and/or detained.

actual looters and trespassers who were arrested by police and charged accordingly were not receiving sympathy from anybody here or elsewhere... again, save for from a few wingnuts. the problem were that far too many peaceful protesters were being identified as seditionists by barr and trump and those protesters were not getting benefit o' civil rights from the fed cops who would accost such people off fed property. label any protester as an antifa member? fed cops using tear gas and violent force to suppress protesters who had a legal right to be on streets and protest were unconstitutional. 

am not sure why we need keep repeating it, the fed agents on streets of portland and not federal property were acting unconstitutional. we told you what were the law, more than once.

portland and the attack on the capitol not even close to analogous.

and again, the situation in portland were never as bruce imagines. were not months o' uninterrupted lawlessness and protests. there is a reason why the rnc had to use stock footage o' riots in spain during their inauguration event in lieu o' actual portland film.

compare today to portland protests is worst kinda whataboutism. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps given recent events am deciding to observe the lunar new year as 'posed to the gregorian calander. as such we will recognize today as being part o' 2020 as 'posed to 2021.

f you 2020.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, rjshae said:

If Trump had the slightest scrap of decency, he'd resign after this fiasco. But if he actually  did, this would be a very different presidency and the scene today would never have happened. This is the price we pay for electing a mentally-ill man to the office.  I continue to look forward to Jan. 20th.

Everything I am about to say in the post below  is not some kind of innuendo or veiled attack on anyone personally, this is my real observations around the Trump presidency and how certain developments occurred and patterns of behavior were allowed on both sides and some of this accumulated in the violence we saw yesterday. And as usual peoples comments are appreciated and always welcome as we unpack what happened 

You know Trump will never resign even though that would be a good decision , part of Trumps meteoric rise to power  is this unusual stance he took  where from the beginning  where he has refused to apologize and said he doesn't believe in being " politically correct " (PC ). Despite the fact being PC is very easy and normal in public commentary and just means you make a point in public using diplomacy and you dont insult or offend people by your choice of words. Being PC is  normal for politicians and is part of the expected decorum and protocol for  anyone in government 

I will never forget how that really started in his 2015  campaign where he openly attacked the media and called CNN  pejorative names like  " fake news  " and  " terrible people " and " you cannot trust the media "

Over the last 2 years we have seen different degrees of violence and anarchy from both sides, all this violence should have condemned and dealt with effectively from the beginning. But when we see months of protests being allowed to continue in places like Portland this sets a  bad precedent and then the other side starts thinking " its okay to use this strategy to justify our political objectives " 

Another example was from your own state where BLM protests occupied a police station in Seattle  and the police ended up evacuating there own police station !!! I am not trying to put you on the spot as I genuinely dont understand how anyone can be fine with this especially when we see the anarchy  continue to increase as people on both sides  become emboldened by lack of action 

But your view on this would be appreciated as I consider you a well informed and reasonable person and just want to understand how you feel about the Seattle police station being allowed to be occupied?

I believe you have to be consistent with the application of the law and how the police deal with violence. If you dont do that you allow extreme elements on both sides to push the boundaries and act with impunity and we see the appalling outcome  of this in what we witnessed yesterday 

Your comments and others  comments  will be appreciated as we try to understand how we can prevent this type of behavior from happening again and this can occur in any country, not just the USA. In SA we often have violent protests but never have I seen an attack on our government buildings 

[BruceVC]

30 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

not only does bruce misrepresent what happened in portland, but he ignores what were the criticisms o' police actions during the summer protests.

other than a few board anarchists, the objection hereabouts (and  elsewhere) o' police efforts in places such as portland were not 'bout police stopping illegal behavior. arrest actual vandals and trespassers? fine. good. the criticism were two-fold:

1) the fed had no authority to take the actions in which they engaged.

2) too many people being attacked by fed police were not committing crimes when they were detained assaulted and/or detained.

actual looters and trespassers who were arrested by police and charged accordingly were not receiving sympathy from anybody here or elsewhere... again, save for from a few wingnuts. the problem were that far too many peaceful protesters were being identified as seditionists by barr and trump and those protesters were not getting benefit o' civil rights from the fed cops who would accost such people off fed property. label any protester as an antifa member? fed cops using tear gas and violent force to suppress protesters who had a legal right to be on streets and protest were unconstitutional. 

am not sure why we need keep repeating it, the fed agents on streets of portland and not federal property were acting unconstitutional. we told you what were the law, more than once.

portland and the attack on the capitol not even close to analogous.

and again, the situation in portland were never as bruce imagines. were not months o' uninterrupted lawlessness and protests. there is a reason why the rnc had to use stock footage o' riots in spain during their inauguration event in lieu o' actual portland film.

compare today to portland protests is worst kinda whataboutism. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps given recent events am deciding to observe the lunar new year as 'posed to the gregorian calander. as such we will recognize today as being part o' 2020 as 'posed to 2021.

f you 2020.

As usual you make a good argument that is based on facts but what you are ignoring is there is absolutely a real view from some people on the right that "BLM is allowed to run riot in Democrat cities so violence from our side is okay " 

This is the perception on the ground from some and perception is reality. So even if you are 100 % correct about overreach from Federal agents and Barr being guilty of unconstitutional behavior that is not how people see it 

And many Trump supporters would have less justification to commit there acts of violence if there was consistency from the police in all states in dealing with violence 

 

[Gromnir]

5 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

 

And many Trump supporters would have less justification to commit there acts of violence if there was consistency from the police in all states in dealing with violence 

 

consistency 'mongst states is impossible. we don't even have consistency w/i states, but this is another issue we has addressed to death.

"perception on the ground" is not a police problem. education is the issue. the events o' today occurred precise 'cause too many people were poor educated 'bout relevant issues. is a fact too many people believe stoopid and that is a genuine problem which need be fixed. real solution to so many American problems is education.

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

35 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

consistency 'mongst states is impossible. we don't even have consistency w/i states, but this is another issue we has addressed to death.

"perception on the ground" is not a police problem. education is the issue. the events o' today occurred precise 'cause too many people were poor educated 'bout relevant issues. is a fact too many people believe stoopid and that is a genuine problem which need be fixed. real solution to so many American problems is education.

HA! Good Fun!

Yes I tend to agree, a lack of education can lead to these types of events but this is more than that on both sides

Its not just about lack of education. I cannot quite explain it because its unique in the world around what I have seen in the last 20 years in numerous countries. I have a real vested interest and support several  global developments and ideological movements  in the world outside of my support for the USA and its influence on certain things that matter to me. I have also done things or shared  similar  ideological views, like the Neocon views of early 2000's that contributed towards the invasion of Iraq, that I am not proud of and realize I was wrong to think like that or act in a certain way. I have changed my views in a much more constructive and consistent way through the years, or try to,   as  I have learnt several painful life lessons

Anyway the point being I have traveled to countries in Africa and the ME where many people are not educated. And I mean really not educated as in no schooling or limited schooling maybe up to grade 6. You can understand how in some of these countries a lack of education can lead to citizens being easily influenced  or manipulated by certain ideological views and then acting on these views. I am not justifying the violence I have seen in certain places because in these very same countries most people who are also not educated are not committing violence and are normally victims of the more extreme element in their own country 

So the first salient point I want to make is people make choices based on there own views and agendas and then decide to act in certain way, it a choice they make and you dont need an education to make the right choice and say " no to anarchy and violence " 

So then we look at the USA reality of the last 4 years. Most people on both sides who can be accused of violence I am sure have at least a grade 12 or  similar degrees of education. In some cases with the mask-denialists and anti-vaxxers there are  people with degrees and University education that deny the effectiveness of a vaccine and the reality of the virus !!!

You cannot, for example, have a reasonable debate and ever agree with people who dont even accept the existence of the virus or think masks are about the Deep State

So in closing, the " perception on the ground " point is nuanced and complex and manifests itself on the groud in the USA and other countries in different ways on both sides ...buts its not just about education. I wish it was that  because that would be easier to understand and address 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by BruceVC

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

real solution to so many American problems is education

QFE

[Darkpriest]

I watched more of a footage, and to be honest, while the action itself is to be condemned, as it really does fly against law and order, I have not seen much voilence. 

Considering that police wasn't in riot gear, I have not seen significant voilence. There wasn't a single molotov ****tail flying, not a single fire laid, no life threatening voilence. The worst I've seen was some destroyed window and tossed up furniture... 

4 ppl died from gun wounds? That's on police and sec serv? 

13 injured officers? Were any of that severe? 

 

[kirottu]

What's the word when something is both funny and depressing at the same time?

[Hiro Protagonist]

5 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

4 ppl died from gun wounds? That's on police and sec serv?

No. As far as I know:

1. Woman shot in chest/neck.

2. Heart attack from flashbang

3. Taserface. He tasered himself and had a heart attack.

4. ???

[BruceVC]

7 hours ago, Elerond said:

Police seems to have different approach to these things in 2021 than they had in 2020

Looks like some people didn't read their master's tweets

From "kneeling during national anthem being insult towards USA's flag and military" to

Guesses will this fine impartial real news journalist from the Blaze get visit from FBI any time soon, considering that he tweets having access to information that is classified. 

Elerond remember the police were caught off-guard during this violence. It wasnt done on purpose to allow this anarchy 

The resources allocated during BLM protests were  arranged and organized in advance in many responses to areas of violence that had been seen in almost every BLM protests by small groups of agitators and extreme elements 

So I can understand your concern but their is no evidence the police were part of what happened or intentionally allowed things to spiral out of control 

[Darkpriest]

2 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Elerond remember the police were caught off-guard during this violence. It wasnt done on purpose to allow this anarchy 

The resources allocated during BLM protests were  arranged and organized in advance in many responses to areas of violence that had been seen in almost every BLM protests by small groups of agitators and extreme elements 

So I can understand your concern but their is no evidence the police were part of what happened or intentionally allowed things to spiral out of control 

Yup, it looked more like a spontaneous action. I did not see people there in any "tactical" gear. 

I wonder what was the trigger? Mob psychology is interesting and scary at times. I would blame it on Trumps initial speach. 

As for media equipment being destroyed. Not a thing I'd support, but I can understand where the anger came from, as these people are being compared to literal 'reichs ppl' by most TV networks.