Politics... World events

[Raithe]

For the political discussion points..

[Elerond]

Sometimes I wonder is it actually possible that people don't actually understand that these things are bidirectional which is why there was agreements in first place

[Malcador]

10 minutes ago, Elerond said:

Sometimes I wonder is it actually possible that people don't actually understand that these things are bidirectional which is why there was agreements in first place

Britannia doesn't rule the waves ?

[Zoraptor]

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Express thought Norway was in the EU. If they're better than the Scum or the Daily Fail it's only because they have less people reading.

[BruceVC]

Zora if you not a fan of the Express then you must say so, dont equivocate 

[Darkpriest]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-12/upbeat-xi-says-time-on-china-s-side-as-turmoil-grips-u-s

https://www.ft.com/content/64ef5592-25b4-48c4-a70b-b42071951941

Buckle up for 2021.

Edited January 13, 2021 by Darkpriest

[melkathi]

Someone in New Zealand tried to copy the USA:

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/13/asia/new-zealand-parliament-axe-intl-hnk-scli/index.html

[Zoraptor]

The axe attack wasn't exactly big news though, 4th (?) news item of the day on the 6 o'clock news, behind such major events as a junkyard fire in Papakura. Far more traditional to use a tractor, gets way more attention too.

[ComradeYellow]

4 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-12/upbeat-xi-says-time-on-china-s-side-as-turmoil-grips-u-s

Yes they're not dumb enough to intervene or act in any meaningful way when their competitors are shooting themselves in the groin.  I don't want China to come out on top or anything but unless the U.S. gets its crap together and adopts some common sense especially on the global stage it's looking quite favorable to China at the moment.

[Gorth]

22 hours ago, melkathi said:

Someone in New Zealand tried to copy the USA:

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/13/asia/new-zealand-parliament-axe-intl-hnk-scli/index.html

Unlike the US, in NZ all the perpetrator(s) got arrested and placed in a mental ward

 

[Lexx]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/13/zello-app-us-capitol-attack-far-right

Quote

Audio and chat logs reveal that at least two insurrectionists who broke into the Capitol on 6 January used Zello, a social media walkie-talkie app that critics say has largely ignored a growing far-right user base.

“We are in the main dome right now,” said a female militia member, speaking on Zello, her voice competing with the cacophony of a clash with Capitol police. “We are rocking it. They’re throwing grenades, they’re frickin’ shooting people with paintballs, but we’re in here.”

“God bless and godspeed. Keep going,” said a male voice from a quiet environment.

“Jess, do your ****,” said another. “This is what we ****ing lived up for. Everything we ****ing trained for.”

 

[BruceVC]

5 hours ago, Gorth said:

Unlike the US, in NZ all the perpetrator(s) got arrested and placed in a mental ward

 

Or even worse in Norway where the  mass murderer Breivik could  only be sentenced to 21 years in jail because that is apparently all Norwegian law allows for a life sentence !!!

Do you realize that means a person who killed over 70 people could be released in the next 10-15 years....its not right Gorthfuscious, its not right 

[Boeroer]

A "lifelong" sentence in Germany usually means 15 years of prison (with 5 years of probation afterwards). If there is "very serious guilt" (judge will determine that) your time in prison can be prolonged lot longer. You can also add further "preventive detention" which is not prison time - but basically the same - if you think the perpetrator will still be a danger mouse. 

I guess Norway has something similar:

Wikipedia said:

The indeterminate penalty (civilian penal code), called "preventive detention" (Norwegian: forvaring), is set at up to 21 years' imprisonment,

with no eligibility for parole for a time period not exceeding 14 years. If the prisoner is still considered dangerous after serving the original sentence, the detention can be extended by five years at a time. Renewal of the detention every five years can in theory result in actual life imprisonment. Preventive detention is used when the prisoner is deemed a danger to society and there is a great chance of them committing violent crimes in the future. However, after the minimum time period has elapsed, the offender can petition for parole once every year, and this may be granted if it is determined that they are no longer a danger to society.

 

Criminal law in most European countries is not based on punishment and doesn't even aim to achieve "justice" (I guess because that's just a very subjective thing). It aims at upholding peace under the law and rehabilitation to prevent further crimes. One reason why there is no death penalty. If the offender can't be resocialized there's that preventive detention. There is the element of deterrence but it's not one of the main pillars - like it seems to be in the US(? correct me if I'm wrong). Also because deterrence doesn't really seem to work that well when it comes to the "big" crimes. 

I'm no lawyer so what I said may be a bit woolly.

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Boeroer

[BruceVC]

26 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

A "lifelong" sentence in Germany usually means 15 years of prison (with 5 years of probation afterwards). If there is "very serious guilt" (judge will determine that) your time in prison can be prolonged lot longer. You can also add further "preventive detention" which is not prison time - but basically the same - if you think the perpetrator will still be a danger mouse. 

I guess Norway has something similar:

 

Criminal law in most European countries is not based on punishment and doesn't even aim to achieve "justice" (I guess because that's just a very subjective thing). It aims at upholding peace under the law and rehabilitation to prevent further crimes. One reason why there is no death penalty. If the offender can't be resocialized there's that preventive detention. There is the element of deterrence but it's not one of the main pillars - like it seems to be in the US(? correct me if I'm wrong). Also because deterrence doesn't really seem to work that well when it comes to the "big" crimes. 

I'm no lawyer so what I said may be a bit woolly.

 

I think you have explained it well but you have also highlighted one of the problems with the EU legal system

You say its about " rehabilitation of citizens ", some crimes like mass murder you cannot be rehabilitated from. You lock the person away and they should die in jail or face the death penalty 

 

[Gorth]

47 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

I think you have explained it well but you have also highlighted one of the problems with the EU legal system

You say its about " rehabilitation of citizens ", some crimes like mass murder you cannot be rehabilitated from. You lock the person away and they should die in jail or face the death penalty 

 

This is based on memory, so take it with a grain of salt, but I know of a guy back in Denmark who got a life sentence for the murder of 4 police officers. The catch is, every few years, he was eligible for applying for parole/pardon. Not an automatic thing, a possibility. He eventually ended up serving 32-33 years. Too early to release him if you ask me, but I guess the guys on the parole board didn't have any of their family members killed by him.

 

Edit: linky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palle_Sørensen

Just the case I remember, because killing police officers is not a common thing in Denmark.

 

[Katphood]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Or even worse in Norway where the  mass murderer Breivik could  only be sentenced to 21 years in jail because that is apparently all Norwegian law allows for a life sentence !!!

Do you realize that means a person who killed over 70 people could be released in the next 10-15 years....its not right Gorthfuscious, its not right 

Taken from Wikipedia:

 

'On 24 August 2012, Breivik was adjudged sane and sentenced to containment—a special form of a prison sentence that can be extended indefinitely; with an approximate period of 21 years and a minimum time of 10 years, the maximum penalty in Norway. Breivik did not appeal and on 8 September media announced that the verdict was final.'

 

But wait, it gets better...

 

 

'In letters to foreign media outlets he told about his demands (in 2013) to prison authorities "including easier communication with the outside world and a PlayStation 3 to replace the current PlayStation 2, because it offers more suitable games"; media reported in 2014 about demands that he would starve himself to death if refused "access to a sofa and a bigger gym"; furthermore he said that "Other inmates have access to adult games while I only have the right to play less interesting kids' games. One example is "Rayman Revolution", a game aimed at three year-olds," Breivik complained to prison officials."

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Katphood

[ComradeYellow]

2 hours ago, Gorth said:

 

Just the case I remember, because killing police officers is not a common thing in Denmark.

 

And vice versa

[Maedhros]

5 hours ago, Katphood said:

Taken from Wikipedia:

 

'On 24 August 2012, Breivik was adjudged sane and sentenced to containment—a special form of a prison sentence that can be extended indefinitely; with an approximate period of 21 years and a minimum time of 10 years, the maximum penalty in Norway. Breivik did not appeal and on 8 September media announced that the verdict was final.'

 

But wait, it gets better...

 

 

'In letters to foreign media outlets he told about his demands (in 2013) to prison authorities "including easier communication with the outside world and a PlayStation 3 to replace the current PlayStation 2, because it offers more suitable games"; media reported in 2014 about demands that he would starve himself to death if refused "access to a sofa and a bigger gym"; furthermore he said that "Other inmates have access to adult games while I only have the right to play less interesting kids' games. One example is "Rayman Revolution", a game aimed at three year-olds," Breivik complained to prison officials."

 

 

 

Key point underlined. Breivik will spend the rest of his life in jail.

[BruceVC]

14 hours ago, Katphood said:

Taken from Wikipedia:

 

'On 24 August 2012, Breivik was adjudged sane and sentenced to containment—a special form of a prison sentence that can be extended indefinitely; with an approximate period of 21 years and a minimum time of 10 years, the maximum penalty in Norway. Breivik did not appeal and on 8 September media announced that the verdict was final.'

 

But wait, it gets better...

 

 

'In letters to foreign media outlets he told about his demands (in 2013) to prison authorities "including easier communication with the outside world and a PlayStation 3 to replace the current PlayStation 2, because it offers more suitable games"; media reported in 2014 about demands that he would starve himself to death if refused "access to a sofa and a bigger gym"; furthermore he said that "Other inmates have access to adult games while I only have the right to play less interesting kids' games. One example is "Rayman Revolution", a game aimed at three year-olds," Breivik complained to prison officials."

 

 

 

This post also highlights my complete shock at how he is being treated in prison. He wasn't deemed insane, many of the people involved in global mass shootings and or terrorist attacks arent insane, and he killed over 70 people.....70 people !!!

And he gets to decide what type of console he prefers???? I understand this type of crime is rare in the Nordic countries, which is a good thing, so the legal institutions were simply not designed with the fitting sentence because in most cases the lenient legal systems do seem to work around rehabilitation. But you need to have clauses or ways to bypass  this idea of " prison can be  a learning curve to a  better life " around certain crimes 

9 hours ago, Maedhros said:

Key point underlined. Breivik will spend the rest of his life in jail.

Good to know, I hope he does spend the rest of his life in jail.....that has to be the only acceptable outcome for the people of Norway and all his victims 

Edited January 15, 2021 by BruceVC

[Lexx]

I like how this dude tried to study law to become a lawyer or whatever and get himself out of it, but later dropped that, because he found out he aint smart enough for that.

Makes me wonder if he realized by now that he f'd up good and isn't the genius he thought he'd be.

Most of the world already forgot about him and his action pretty much changed nothing except getting him into jail forever.

 

/Edit: "And he gets to decide what type of console he prefers????"

He doesn't. If I remember right, his request got denied.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Lexx

[Darkpriest]

So it seems like Aussie regulators and BigTech are on a collision course? 

[Hiro Protagonist]

Gotta love drinking Google's tears.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-01-15/google-experiment-burying-links-commercial-news-sites/13060658

"Google has decided to hide some Australian news sites from its search results, in a move that is being interpreted as a response to the Australian Government attempting to make the tech giant pay for original news content."

"In early December 2020, the Australian Government tabled legislation that will force Google and Facebook to pay news organisations for access to their journalism."

"Under the code, media organisations can bargain with the digital platforms for the amount charged per piece of content. If the bargaining is unsuccessful, the decision goes to arbitration. A panel of arbiters can make a final decision."

"The mandatory bargaining code is the result of many years of complaints from traditional media outlets that social media platforms pay nothing for the work of journalists but make millions of dollars through advertising."

"Google should pay for content, not block it."

Google has accounted for this benefit: it estimates the referral traffic was worth $218m to publishers in 2018.

"For every $100 of online advertising spend, $53 goes to Google, $28 goes to Facebook, and $19 goes to other participants,"

[Darkpriest]

So there is some opinion starting to shape, that EU has "no balls" when it comes to a real deal. 

1) Brexit deal seems to be favorable to UK, and while there are some arbitration tools within the deal, that might be used at some unknown point in the future, once the paperwork and initial administrative burden for companies will be closed, UK doesn't lose almost anything, while all the posing and roaring is showing a teethless kitten on the EU side. 

2) Inability to hard press Poland and Hungary in terms of various 'rule of law' and 'common values'. 

3) Deal with Bejing, where the things like human rights, forced labor were largely ignored, amd it seems that Germany had some side deal interest in this, when it comes to telecomm market. 

4) Debt crisis expanding in a lot of areas. 

5) Immigration policy failures and convinient covid shoving the topic under the rug, concealing still existing problems

 

 

[BruceVC]

20 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

So there is some opinion starting to shape, that EU has "no balls" when it comes to a real deal. 

1) Brexit deal seems to be favorable to UK, and while there are some arbitration tools within the deal, that might be used at some unknown point in the future, once the paperwork and initial administrative burden for companies will be closed, UK doesn't lose almost anything, while all the posing and roaring is showing a teethless kitten on the EU side. 

2) Inability to hard press Poland and Hungary in terms of various 'rule of law' and 'common values'. 

3) Deal with Bejing, where the things like human rights, forced labor were largely ignored, amd it seems that Germany had some side deal interest in this, when it comes to telecomm market. 

4) Debt crisis expanding in a lot of areas. 

5) Immigration policy failures and convinient covid shoving the topic under the rug, concealing still existing problems

 

 

No, no my friend lets not  blame the EU for the UK making the wrong, IMO, and difficult decision to leave the EU. My English family initially voted no to BREXIT but those days are over and we all need to support the UK leaving the EU

They had to find some compromise around the actual BREXIT outstanding economic and political impasses like the Irish border, the UK fishing concerns  and what happens with the delivery of goods using trucks at places like Dover. So the EU didnt  give favorable terms to the UK, they compromised on several complicated realities that if you leave the EU what about "issue y or x " 

I hope I am wrong but initially the UK is going to go through some tough economic times while renegotiating numerous global trade deals. So what I am saying  is  " you should be thankful you part of the EU because access to the single market has made the EU the worlds most successful trading block " ...lets celebrate that by going out and getting drunk ...post pandemic of course 

 

[Darkpriest]

8 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

No, no my friend lets not  blame the EU for the UK making the wrong, IMO, and difficult decision to leave the EU. My English family initially voted no to BREXIT but those days are over and we all need to support the UK leaving the EU

They had to find some compromise around the actual BREXIT outstanding economic and political impasses like the Irish border, the UK fishing concerns  and what happens with the delivery of goods using trucks at places like Dover. So the EU didnt  give favorable terms to the UK, they compromised on several complicated realities that if you leave the EU what about "issue y or x " 

I hope I am wrong but initially the UK is going to go through some tough economic times while renegotiating numerous global trade deals. So what I am saying  is  " you should be thankful you part of the EU because access to the single market has made the EU the worlds most successful trading block " ...lets celebrate that by going out and getting drunk ...post pandemic of course 

 

There will be some initial administrative hurdles that will impact the first two Qs, but when you get into the core of the deal, it's quite good for UK and it shows EU as a 'weak' entity. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Darkpriest