Politics 2020 - the gift that keeps giving

[HoonDing]

Accuse the other side of that which you are guilty.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Whistleblower Complaint Alleges Mass Hysterectomies at ICE Detention Center
 

 

Having difficulty finding sites that aren't that one which are also reporting this news. Link to the filed complaint raise concerns about COVID precautions, not forced hysterectomies.

https://www.scribd.com/document/476013004/OIG-Complaint#from_embed?campaign=VigLink&ad_group=xxc1xx&source=hp_affiliate&medium=affiliate

What am I missing?

Nevermind. It's buried on page 18.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Achilles

[Bartimaeus]

3 minutes ago, Achilles said:

Having difficulty finding sites that aren't that one which are also reporting this news. Link to the filed complaint raise concerns about COVID precautions, not forced hysterectomies.

https://www.scribd.com/document/476013004/OIG-Complaint#from_embed?campaign=VigLink&ad_group=xxc1xx&source=hp_affiliate&medium=affiliate

What am I missing?

Don't know much about the site in question, nor the veracity of the report, but the linked OIG report mentions "hyster" 15 times, including in the scribd page you just linked.

e.g. page 18:

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

e.g. page 18:

Yeah, I found it. Thanks for the follow up!

[majestic]

23 hours ago, Gorth said:

I guess I got lucky and felt like I got my moneys worth on the kickstarter projects I supported. Pillars of Eternity was $1000 well spent, but Wasteland 2, Expeditions: Conquistador and the last one, Stasis, in particular were what I consider good games and happy to have supported.

Don't feed him. Especially past midnight.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Whistleblower Complaint Alleges Mass Hysterectomies at ICE Detention Center
 

 

I can't wait to see how this is justified.

2 hours ago, Elerond said:

Genocide is new form of freedom

Well given the history of the territory that now constitutes the USA, you could argue that genocide was and is integral to the American project.

[Orogun01]

2 hours ago, KaineParker said:

I can't wait to see how this is justified.

Well given the history of the territory that now constitutes the USA, you could argue that genocide was and is integral to the American project.

Yeah....that's why popular sentiment at the time stopped the US from all out war on the Indians until stories of the Indians peacefully scalping, torturing an raping those settlers spread. Why those poor noble savages, its a good thing Communist Hollywood corrected the record out of  pure selfless reasons.Not because shaming and subversion were their purpose, after all that doesn't work...I mean its not like we have a bunch of self hating communist white people rioting on behalf of minorities. 

[Malcador]

Americans still afraid of the Reds ?

[Orogun01]

Just now, Malcador said:

Americans still afraid of the Reds ?

Have you seen what China's doing lately? With their big red flag???

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

36 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

Yeah....that's why popular sentiment at the time stopped the US from all out war on the Indians until stories of the Indians peacefully scalping, torturing an raping those settlers spread. Why those poor noble savages, its a good thing Communist Hollywood corrected the record out of  pure selfless reasons.Not because shaming and subversion were their purpose, after all that doesn't work...I mean its not like we have a bunch of self hating communist white people rioting on behalf of minorities. 

You should quit drinking before you reveal your power level and start going on holocaust revisionism or the protocols.

30 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Americans still afraid of the Reds ?

Americans are afraid of everything.

[Orogun01]

1 minute ago, KaineParker said:

You should quit drinking before you reveal your power level and start going on holocaust revisionism or the protocols.

 

Too late, that already happened. It's funny how people are so afraid of entertaining ideas, as if our powers of reasoning will suddenly ran out of gas and stop at the wrong place.
Look, I get why you think the way you do but as a guy that has recently been doing light research on the Indian American conflicts; from King Phillipe war to the war against the Plains Indian, there's more to this than the modern narrative. Let's face it, one commercial of an Indian crying over littering is what dictated our modern view of the natives, strangely enough we accept that they committed scalping (which is horrific) but somehow they are still regarded as the victims. Why? Cause evil white man didn't believe in Great Spirit and wasn't connected to nature and a whole other sleuth of modern politics that have muddied perspective.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

25 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

Too late, that already happened. It's funny how people are so afraid of entertaining ideas, as if our powers of reasoning will suddenly ran out of gas and stop at the wrong place.
Look, I get why you think the way you do but as a guy that has recently been doing light research on the Indian American conflicts; from King Phillipe war to the war against the Plains Indian, there's more to this than the modern narrative. Let's face it, one commercial of an Indian crying over littering is what dictated our modern view of the natives, strangely enough we accept that they committed scalping (which is horrific) but somehow they are still regarded as the victims. Why? Cause evil white man didn't believe in Great Spirit and wasn't connected to nature and a whole other sleuth of modern politics that have muddied perspective.

There's a difference between entertaining ideas and spouting off dubious horse**** to downplay or deny genocide. 

I don't know what this supposed modern narrative you're going on about is, but it shouldn't be controversial to say genocide is bad even if the victims weren't saints or were even very bad. Consistently applying your argument that scalping made genocide acceptable, virtually any group of people could be considered fair game to wipe out because every group has very bad people who commonly do or have done horrific **** like forcibly sterilizing detainees or drone striking weddings. 

[Orogun01]

2 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

There's a difference between entertaining ideas and spouting off dubious horse**** to downplay or deny genocide. 

I don't know what this supposed modern narrative you're going on about is, but it shouldn't be controversial to say genocide is bad even if the victims weren't saints or were even very bad. Consistently applying your argument that scalping made genocide acceptable, virtually any group of people could be considered fair game to wipe out because every group has very bad people who commonly do or have done horrific **** like forcibly sterilizing detainees or drone striking weddings. 

....Except it wasn't genocide, what people misunderstand about reservations is that they weren't concentration camps. Indians warchiefs that had committed atrocities against whites would be taken to reservations because of the political expediency of maintaining peace. After a while those warchiefs would then leave the reservation with a group an resume raiding and pillaging. The reservations weren't concentration camps, they weren't held there against their will. It came about as a result of a long lasting conflict where both groups did awful things to each other, it was the best compromise between Indian self governance and the rights of the settlers.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

19 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

....Except it wasn't genocide, what people misunderstand about reservations is that they weren't concentration camps.

There wasn't a singular event or period of genocide, there are several that can be considered genocide by the coined definition of the term that occur before and after the USA emerged as a state. It seems kind of odd to deny that the long history of massacres, forced relocations, and attempts to starve out the various indigenous tribes didn't involve genocide because reservations weren't technically concentration camps, but at this point I can't say it's surprising.

[BruceVC]

8 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Whistleblower Complaint Alleges Mass Hysterectomies at ICE Detention Center
 

'

I find this hard to believe, next thing someone is going to tell us that ICE centers are now being used to for " live experimentation "  on pregnant women and Trump is implementing a program of genocide against illegal immigrants 

[Orogun01]

23 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

There wasn't a singular event or period of genocide, there are several that can be considered genocide by the coined definition of the term that occur before and after the USA emerged as a state. It seems kind of odd to deny that the long history of massacres, forced relocations, and attempts to starve out the various indigenous tribes didn't involve genocide because reservations weren't technically concentration camps, but at this point I can't say it's surprising.

...so America sucks at genocide? Because we have Indians still. Look, no one is denying the historical events, we are just asking to look at the context and stop holding one group on a pedestal when they clearly should be there. I get that history is marred by the politics of the times, but we should really strive to understand historical events  without biases. The Indians were horrible, ruled the east of the current US and did terrible things to settlers and so the settlers did horrible things back. Honestly, with the historical context reservations aren't that horrible of a solution compared to actual genocide. They survived and they're still fighting for some rights, which hopefully they get.
My solution is to look to a future where the full historical events are  explained and it serves to bring us together, not to bash one group over stuff their great great great grandfathers/mothers did. Also, why is it that only white Americans are held accountable for their ancestors actions? All races/nationalities  have been horrible to each other at some point in history, but why is it that white countries are the ones that should feel guilty?

BTW, if you don't know about subversion and the role the USSR had in shaping American's 60s counterculture  I suggest you google Yuri Bezmenov. It's a good starting point, hopefully you will work you way up to declassified KGB documents that show that the Soviets financed; through the American Communist party, several films to subvert public opinion and make them embrace communism.  But I know what you're thinking, that's all conspiracy huey.... I mean its not like there's bunch of crazed leftist that have no real clue burning their societies down. Why I must be wrong, cause obviously if it sounds crazy it must be false.

This message has been brought to yo by the same government that trained pigeons to be the first smart bombs.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

4 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

..so America sucks at genocide? Because we have Indians still

This is probably the dumbest **** I've read on this site.

5 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

Yuri Bezmenov

Stop browsing /pol/.

[Orogun01]

29 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

This is probably the dumbest **** I've read on this site.

Stop browsing /pol/.

...Well, how about you keep an open mind and see entertain an opposing view. Things aren't as clear cut as the common opinions make it out to be.  If you dismiss  a statement because of a source then you're the guy that denied that the sky was blue because a Nazi said so. Argue the points not the sources.

[BruceVC]

36 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

This is probably the dumbest **** I've read on this site.

Stop browsing /pol/.

No way this is the dumbest thing you have ever read on this forum, its far from some of the comments people have made.  Oby use to tell us about tribes of " pure blood, Aryans living in remote mountain valleys in Mother Russia " who were the true ancestors of all white people 

[Gorth]

2 hours ago, Orogun01 said:

....Except it wasn't genocide, what people misunderstand about reservations is that they weren't concentration camps. Indians warchiefs that had committed atrocities against whites would be taken to reservations because of the political expediency of maintaining peace. After a while those warchiefs would then leave the reservation with a group an resume raiding and pillaging. The reservations weren't concentration camps, they weren't held there against their will. It came about as a result of a long lasting conflict where both groups did awful things to each other, it was the best compromise between Indian self governance and the rights of the settlers.

Yeah, how dare they take up arms and defend their ancestral land against the pure, noble whites....

 

46 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

...so America sucks at genocide? Because we have Indians still. Look, no one is denying the historical events, we are just asking to look at the context and stop holding one group on a pedestal when they clearly should be there. I get that history is marred by the politics of the times, but we should really strive to understand historical events  without biases. The Indians were horrible, ruled the east of the current US and did terrible things to settlers and so the settlers did horrible things back. Honestly, with the historical context reservations aren't that horrible of a solution compared to actual genocide. They survived and they're still fighting for some rights, which hopefully they get.
My solution is to look to a future where the full historical events are  explained and it serves to bring us together, not to bash one group over stuff their great great great grandfathers/mothers did. Also, why is it that only white Americans are held accountable for their ancestors actions? All races/nationalities  have been horrible to each other at some point in history, but why is it that white countries are the ones that should feel guilty?

One thing you got right here is, everybody should be held accountable for their actions. As for reservations, they were effectively the koncentration camps of the 19th century. Every time the settlers had trespassed enough into native land and conflicts arose between native population and the new immigrants, the military got sent in to  evict the native population. Sometimes they would be given a token piece of land, Just to get them out of the way (probably cheaper than having to buy enough bullets to execute them all). Often tracts of land unsuitable for agriculture and hunting, leading to famine, starvation and epidemics. Short version here https://www.ushistory.org/us/40d.asp

 

No, they weren't "genocided away" in the strict sense of the word, as their genes still exist, but cultural genocide is also a thing. You can kill a mans spirit just as well has his body

 

Gromnir could probably tell WAY better then an ignorant foreigner like me how life in reservations was and is.

[Orogun01]

28 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Yeah, how dare they take up arms and defend their ancestral land against the pure, noble whites....

One thing that became clear when researching this topic (light research, I have a 9 to 5) was that natives had a loose concept of ownership. They raided land from each other and took freely whilst calling for a Sundance to settle peace with the same people they robbed.  The notion of Indians being a peaceful people that defended their "ancestral" land is bull, they were fighting each other and rearranging territorial claims for  decades before the white man decided to ask to settle in undeveloped territory.
 

 

40 minutes ago, Gorth said:

 

One thing you got right here is, everybody should be held accountable for their actions. As for reservations, they were effectively the koncentration camps of the 19th century. Every time the settlers had trespassed enough into native land and conflicts arose between native population and the new immigrants, the military got sent in to  evict the native population. Sometimes they would be given a token piece of land, Just to get them out of the way (probably cheaper than having to buy enough bullets to execute them all). Often tracts of land unsuitable for agriculture and hunting, leading to famine, starvation and epidemics. Short version here https://www.ushistory.org/us/40d.asp

 

No, they weren't "genocided away" in the strict sense of the word, as their genes still exist, but cultural genocide is also a thing. You can kill a mans spirit just as well has his body

 

Gromnir could probably tell WAY better then an ignorant foreigner like me how life in reservations was and is.

Look, I'm not blind to the plight of Indians in reservations but... they weren't concentration camps, they were free to go out and go about their business. We can argue about what makes a concentration camp and what would the first historical camp would be (that seems interesting) but if we can agree that a concentration camp is a guarded place  which the interred  can't leave, then reservations don't fit the bill.

Settlers negotiated deals with Indians, the problems arose from the Indians loose definitions of property and land. They were very clear with letting settlers come in because of deals that benefited them and they were very vague when it came to Indians stealing,looting and slaving (to be fair, Plains Indians weren't a unified group which made relations difficult)

I think everyone should read/ hear about the indian wars. They won against the Americans and Spanish, ultimately failing because the progress and the tremendous divide between the two cultures.
My point is... history is complex and we have to look at the context and if there's a popular view on a subject, ask about its origins. Is it misguided and misinformed? We can't deny what Indians went through in the reservations but we shouldn't forget what landed them there in the  first place.
They were horrific savages before their tribulations, I say this without judgement because all cultures have savage past. Yet it seems that only those that were victorious are criticized in our times.

[Gromnir]

the number of indigenous cultures wiped out by the US government is considerable. insistence on lumping all "indians" together is only the most glaring flaw we see from oro on this subject. 

other than the more overt examples o' the mass murders o' native populations by gun and sword, there has been a slow and inexorable destruction o' many o' the remaining native populations. in nature, extinction level events do not necessarily occur overnight. current genocide is executed with less universal malicious intent than were exhibited by Presidents such as jackson and grant, but rather a callous indifference and/or genuine ignorance o' a process set in motion in decades past. is little evidence o' a will to stop the inevitable. 

as for conditions, we have noted how pine ridge, as an example, is lagging behind gaza in every quality o' life measure save for literacy and that is only 'cause the lakota believe both men and women deserve access to education.  pine ridge is hardly the most terrible example but it is the one we happen to be most familiar.

gotta keep in mind who is spouting the nonsense.

uh, ok.

a holocaust skeptic to boot.

warning: you have all seen the footage, but it is nevertheless disturbing.

"Because we have Indians still."

*snort* 

point to 2020 world population o' those who identify jewish as an argument for rejecting a claim  accusation o' german genocidal efforts is asinine. is no less ridiculous to point to living examples o' "indians" (whatever that term is meaning to oro) and suggest the living and breathing tangibility o' such persons is a meaningful rebuttal o' US genocide efforts. laughable and should requires no response.

am thinking we all have oro's number at this point.

ps:

"One thing that became clear when researching this topic..."

*insert eye-roll emoji here*

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

16 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

the number of indigenous cultures wiped out by the US government is considerable. insistence on lumping all "indians" together is only the most glaring flaw we see from oro on this subject. 

other than the more overt examples o' the mass murders o' native populations by gun and sword, there has been a slow and inexorable destruction o' many o' the remaining native populations. in nature, extinction level events do not necessarily occur overnight. current genocide is executed with less universal malicious intent than were exhibited by Presidents such as jackson and grant, but rather a callous indifference and/or genuine ignorance o' a process set in motion in decades past. is little evidence o' a will to stop the inevitable. 

as for conditions, we have noted how pine ridge, as an example, is lagging behind gaza in every quality o' life measure save for literacy and that is only 'cause the lakota believe both men and women deserve access to education.  pine ridge is hardly the most terrible example but it is the one we happen to be most familiar.

gotta keep in mind who is spouting the nonsense.

uh, ok.

a holocaust skeptic to boot.

warning: you have all seen the footage, but it is nevertheless disturbing.

"Because we have Indians still."

*snort* 

point to 2020 world population o' those who identify jewish as an argument for rejecting a claim  accusation o' german genocidal efforts is asinine. is no less ridiculous to point to living examples o' "indians" (whatever that term is meaning to oro) and suggest the living and breathing tangibility o' such persons is a meaningful rebuttal o' US genocide efforts. laughable and should requires no response.

am thinking we all have oro's number at this point.

ps:

"One thing that became clear when researching this topic..."

*insert eye-roll emoji here*

 

Thanks for sharing this information, I consider you a very knowledgeable and authentic reference for understanding the history of Native Americans and its not just your lived experience but what you have studied and have been involved in

And that brings me to a question, I have watched several TV series where the reality of life on the Native Americans  reservations is portrayed and in some tribes there seems to be a debate around "what is the most effective way reservations should be utilized to ensure culture is preserved but there is also economic transformation " 

Some tribes have built casinos as a source of legitimate revenue generation and I always thought this is genius and makes sense. I use to be a gambler and casinos offer restaurants, movie theaters, shows and become conference centers ...apart from the gambling which is great fun but there are rules about not abusing gambling which must be adhered to 

Yet I have seen there is some push back from some tribal spokesmen because they see casinos as undermining culture and basically corrupting the tribe 

And this surprises me that a legitimate business could be seen so  negatively. A casino  creates jobs and income and has much ancillary business benefits. For example this  also leads to transformation like people that own or work in casino restaurants 

Whats your view on the benefits and or negative of casinos on reservations ?

 

[Orogun01]

@Gromnir we would hope you would understand that the limited nature of dialogue would prevent us from explaining what should be obvious. We are not deranged and we do not hate,  but we are not politically correct. Indians now enjoy the benefit of being in a culture that lift ups the downtrodden whilst being unaware to the fact that they could have as easily been the losing side. Really, y'all whiteys should be easier on yourselves. An Indian ruled future might have not been so great, Red Cloud realized this as he threw hostilities away in favor of politics.

Gromnir, also chooses to ignore the clear war triumphs of the Plains Tribes against settlers throughout the majority of the Indian wars. The fact that Indians enslaved settlers, raped and pillaged them is undeniable. But current politics dictate that we should be forgetful of the past wrongs while acknowledging our faults, instead of coming together  over our shared history.

Also, why you bringing up the jews? I understand that you were/are a a lawyer and misrepresenting your opponents view is your bread and butter.  You do not know us and know not if we have grown beyond anonymous statements that we have made in the past. But I understand, you're competitive per your profession and slander its just a means to an end.
It is one of the reasons why I don't trust lawyers and why the rule of law is so messed up, people like you keep arguing to win instead of doing what would benefit the populace.
 

[Gorth]

1 hour ago, Orogun01 said:

Look, I'm not blind to the plight of Indians in reservations but... they weren't concentration camps, they were free to go out and go about their business. We can argue about what makes a concentration camp and what would the first historical camp would be (that seems interesting) but if we can agree that a concentration camp is a guarded place  which the interred  can't leave, then reservations don't fit the bill.

At the latter, according to a law from 1851, they were NOT allowed to leave the reservations (without a written permit)...

 

At the former, I think I had that conversation years ago with Walsingham, as England is generally (rightfully or not) credited with inventing modern concentration camps, used to eradicate the Boer population in South Africa during the Boer wars.