Politics 2020 - the gift that keeps giving

[Gorth]

5 hours ago, Malcador said:

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2020-09-17/trump-says-he-will-create-commission-to-promote-patriotic-education

Indeed, Americans need to love their country like a child does their parents.

He's spent too much time with Xi and Kim

 

Edit: Check my signature for what I think of nationalism. "Patriotism" is just trying to make nationalism sound nicer.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

"Patriotism" is just trying to make nationalism sound nicer.

He's counting on his supporters not knowing the difference.

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

He's spent too much time with Xi and Kim

 

Edit: Check my signature for what I think of nationalism. "Patriotism" is just trying to make nationalism sound nicer.

I'd like to take this moment to suggest that we re-define patriotism to mean wanting the best from and for your country and its people. When I criticize my country, it's not because I hate it or its inhabitants or want all of us to forever be stuck on some kind of hundred year old-plus guilt over something that occurred before even my parents or their parents were born - it's because I, a citizen that is also a human being with some measure of self-awareness, empathy, and the ability to take criticism without needing to always be 100% defensive about it, can reflect and honestly say that we (like literally every other nation that's ever existed past and present) didn't do or handle something right, and hope that we will not make the same kind of decisions in the future - especially in situations where there is no pressing need to do so. It's also possible to help those who have been disproportionately negatively affected by our nation's historical decisions without having to cop up to some kind of personal guilt, just as it's possible to make the decision to generously help other people even when they aren't strictly in dire need of it. Believe it or not, some people are capable of being empathetic and unselfish without necessarily needing to be driven by guilt. I would not necessarily count myself among those people most of the time, but the nasty assumption that everyone who acts seemingly unselfishly is doing it just out of guilt is just that - a nasty assumption that says more about the person making it than the people it's being lobbed against.

(e): You'll also note that this "definition" of patriotism (that will never be mainstream) isn't necessarily (and really shouldn't be) at the complete expense of all other non-citizens, because I'm personally at least taking into more account than simply material worth. Genuine ethical and moral failings can be just as dangerous to a nation's worth and well-being (if not more so) than simply minor or even moderate economic or power shortfalls.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[Lexx]

Man, and america looks crazy already with their pledge to the flag and singing the national anthem every morning, etc. That's some pretty good fascist brainwashing already.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Man, and america looks crazy already with their pledge to the flag and singing the national anthem every morning, etc. That's some pretty good fascist brainwashing already.

Yup :(

[majestic]

2 hours ago, Gorth said:

He's spent too much time with Xi and Kim

 

Edit: Check my signature for what I think of nationalism. "Patriotism" is just trying to make nationalism sound nicer.

Let's hear what God-President Reagan has to say about that. Or sing?

 

[Gromnir]

6 hours ago, Skarpen said:

So basically he said ...

this is a tell... and a lie. 

find the exact quote which supports. you cannot 'cause doesn't exist.

basically says.

essentially claims.

etc.

is dead giveaways. is tells. is bs.

biden said that to have trump, who denies the science o' human affected climate change in the wh for four more years, is dangerous and arguable catastrophic. now maybe you think he indulged in hyperbole, but he did not basically say or essentially claim as you and the article suggest. even the greenyist and gullible green new deal folks is not gonna believe any implementation o' climate conscious efforts will result in immediate impact on climate.  however, there does need to be recognition o' a problem and a President who willful ignores the problem is making situation for future Americans worse. 

is appropriate we is talking education... as if we needed yet another example o' skarp_one reading comprehension fails.

@Azdeus

have noted previous we don't mind specific events failed to be taught. am more interested in what you were taught than what you were not. US school kids, for example, may have any number o' events which gets overlooked with disturbing frequency, but japanese internment and slave trade and triangle shirt waistcoat factory does get covered in many US schools... and best we may say is "many" 'cause there is no national standard and enforcing such a thing is beyond problematic as doing so violates multiple aspects o' the Constitution. if we attempted to teach school kids every US fail o' character and conscience, there would never be any time to delve into individual aspects o' history and it would be impossible  to teach research skills and analysis as there wouldn't be time for much save brief laundry listing o' every fail. 

that said, is bad for us to do same thing we complain 'bout with others and overgeneralize europeans. bad on Gromnir. am suitably chastised.  

however, perhaps illustrative and right on cue

regardless, the pith 'bout those who fail to learn the lessons o' history being doomed to repeat is apt even if is a bit oversimple. after all, what example exists from recent past which reveals the dangers o' legally mandating nationalistic pride in the teaching o' children? 

again, is not surprising who is the boardies advocating such nonsense. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited September 18, 2020 by Gromnir

[Guard Dog]

7 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

I'd like to take this moment to suggest that we re-define patriotism to mean wanting the best from and for your country and its people. When I criticize my country, it's not because I hate it or its inhabitants or want all of us to forever be stuck on some kind of hundred year old-plus guilt over something that occurred before even my parents or their parents were born - it's because I, a citizen that is also a human being with some measure of self-awareness, empathy, and the ability to take criticism without needing to always be 100% defensive about it, can reflect and honestly say that we (like literally every other nation that's ever existed past and present) didn't do or handle something right, and hope that we will not make the same kind of decisions in the future - especially in situations where there is no pressing need to do so. It's also possible to help those who have been disproportionately negatively affected by our nation's historical decisions without having to cop up to some kind of personal guilt, just as it's possible to make the decision to generously help other people even when they aren't strictly in dire need of it. Believe it or not, some people are capable of being empathetic and unselfish without necessarily needing to be driven by guilt. I would not necessarily count myself among those people most of the time, but the nasty assumption that everyone who acts seemingly unselfishly is doing it just out of guilt is just that - a nasty assumption that says more about the person making it than the people it's being lobbed against.

(e): You'll also note that this "definition" of patriotism (that will never be mainstream) isn't necessarily (and really shouldn't be) at the complete expense of all other non-citizens, because I'm personally at least taking into more account than simply material worth. Genuine ethical and moral failings can be just as dangerous to a nation's worth and well-being (if not more so) than simply minor or even moderate economic or power shortfalls.

That is not re-defining patriotisim. That is pretty much what it is. Mark Twain once said "Patriotisim is loyalty to your country all the time... loyalty to it's government only when it deserves it". I think you'll agree it has not been very impressive over the years. 

[HoonDing]

If you have to tell yourself how awesome you are, you probably aren't

[Guard Dog]

The USA is now firmly stuck in a rut where folks  believe liberty and Democracy are the same thing. I keep hearing people say "we're losing our democracy". How do they figure that? There will still be an election in November and the winners will still take office. And very little will change. Because we are continually replacing one set of abusive masters for another. Gromnir has pointed out that Trump is spectacularly and even historically bad. And he's right. But the choices offered are spectacularly and historically bad and slightly less bad.  Does anyone seriously believe Biden will be less abusive of executive power than Trump? Obama wasn't. Bush was only slightly less abusive than Obama. 

What we are losing is liberty. There are only three ways to go here. Just give up and accept that this is the new normal. Pick up a rifle. Or stop voting for the "lesser evil". Put me down for option 3. 

[Malcador]

6 hours ago, majestic said:

Let's hear what God-President Reagan has to say about that. Or sing?

 

Wait, he's using a German gun ? 

[majestic]

33 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Wait, he's using a German gun ? 

According to the picture anyway. The God-President himself has giant laser eyes with which he blasts commie robots. xD

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Because we are continually replacing one set of abusive masters for another. Gromnir has pointed out that Trump is spectacularly and even historically bad. And he's right. But the choices offered are spectacularly and historically bad and slightly less bad.  Does anyone seriously believe Biden will be less abusive of executive power than Trump? Obama wasn't. Bush was only slightly less abusive than Obama.

Wut?

Quote

What we are losing is liberty. There are only three ways to go here. Just give up and accept that this is the new normal. Pick up a rifle. Or stop voting for the "lesser evil". Put me down for option 3. 

Man, I get that you're frustrated but come on.

"Pick up a rifle" is just one of many way of becoming more politically engaged. I agree that political engagement is a response (and would argue that it's the best one), but disagree that violence is the only form that can take. It's amazing how responsive politicians are to the will of the people when the people make it clear that they are:

1. paying attention
2. going to vote on the matter

Both conditions have to be met. People who are upset about something, but don't vote accordingly don't cause change. People who don't pay attention to what's going on and just keep voting the same congressperson into office every couple of years don't cause change.

As for "voting for the lesser evil", I've never understood what that means. Do you think there's a stable of philosopher kings on standby that are conspiratorially being withheld from us? Every four years another reincarnation of King Solomon will arise in his new form from the heartland, but some evil power prevents the masses of ever learning of his existence?

Every single person who has ever run for office, is running for office now, or will run for office in the future will be a human being. Not a single one of them will be perfect. Finding a perfect unicorn who matches your exact political beliefs and goals perfectly isn't going to happen. Furthermore, that would only be great news *for you*.

All this to say, you will only ever have two options:

1. The candidate who moves more of the things you care about closer to where you think they should go
2. The candidate who move less of the things you care about further from where you think they should go

Grabbing your rifle won't change that, because whatever system is put in place after this one will still present you these two choices. Sitting out elections only guarantees that other people make these decisions for you while you're home on the couch with your protest non-vote. If you really want things to change, you have to pay attention to what the power players are doing and then hold them accountable for their actions. That means voting, regardless of whether or not "your" candidate is on the ballot. That means supporting (either financially, if you can, or with your volunteer hours, if you can't) candidates you think are "better".

Anything less than this is living in a dream world.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Achilles

[213374U]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

Wait, he's using a German gun ? 

Not to mention a Russian grenade launcher. Clear evidence of the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids...

[Amentep]

General Ripper, is that you...?

[Guest]

*sips rainwater and grain alcohol*

[ComradeYellow]

https://www.asiatimesfinancial.com/ccp-announces-plan-to-take-control-of-chinas-private-sector.amp

Looks like the pendulum has swung in China.  I think it's a generational thing.  In the 80's they privatized much of the economy and loosened control quite a bit, now it looks like they're going back towards ideological purity.

Not that I want the U.S. to emulate China or anything but this will sure piss off the fascist bootlickers in the West. 

[Orogun01]

4 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

https://www.asiatimesfinancial.com/ccp-announces-plan-to-take-control-of-chinas-private-sector.amp

Looks like the pendulum has swung in China.  I think it's a generational thing.  In the 80's they privatized much of the economy and loosened control quite a bit, now it looks like they're going back towards ideological purity.

Not that I want the U.S. to emulate China or anything but this will sure piss off the fascist bootlickers in the West. 

This is actually one on a series of crackdowns, there's talk that Xi is trying to revive the office of supreme leader of the party that Mao once held and he seems to be cleaning house. There were also party rumors of Xi preparing for an economic lockdown. This move however might push companies away that are necessary for China's plans to become a global leader in technology.

BTW, I don't understand why people with socialist leanings think the government would do a better job of running the economy than the private sector. Or maybe I misunderstood your elation at the prospect of "pissing off fascist bootlickers"

[Orogun01]

20 hours ago, Gromnir said:

to help get you started, perhaps you should research the daughters of the confederacy and their efforts to promote the teaching o' a more enlightened and positive historical narrative. spoiler: the ladies o' the south were disturbing successful although 'course such schemes necessarily need happen at the state and local level. heck, is more than a few examples o' southerners posting on this board which show just how powerful a tool were the motivated teaching o' patriotism to school children. not need look very far for examples... not far at all.

That's all fine and good that your education was shaped by some Confederate ladies back in the 1910's when you were going to school.
Right now we have almost all states having adopted the common core standards     which paired with how public schools are funded through property taxes raised in the area results in the poorest having access to lower quality of education link

Add to that the fact that No child left behind requires school to meet growth criteria or lose federal funding, we now have a standardized K12 school system dictated by who knows who, but it is very undeniable that academics tend to be majority left leaning.

Also college education is the one I originally was referring to; which host a number of courses in leftism and  critical race theory      as well as Women's Studies as a degrees. If you know about how subversion works you know that the KGB would send agents to influence countercultures to be more amenable to Communist ideas. Right now there are several Universities being investigated for ties with China

https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/harvard-professor-charged-hiding-china-ties-68591184

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/arkansas-professor-accused-of-hiding-china-ties-when-receiving-nasa-grants

https://www.thecollegefix.com/former-ohio-state-professor-arrested-trying-to-flee-to-china-with-stolen-laptops-usb-drives/

 

We might argue the extent of infiltration and at what levels of authority, but to outright dismiss it would be silly.

 

 

 

[Malcador]

Well, Justice Ginsberg died.

[Orogun01]

7 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Well, Justice Ginsberg died.

RIP, it's a shame the last year of her life was so heavily politicized as I'm sure this news will be

[Malcador]

3 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

RIP, it's a shame the last year of her life was so heavily politicized as I'm sure this news will be

Wonder which servile facsimile of a human Trump will rush in.

[Bartimaeus]

39 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Well, Justice Ginsberg died.

RIP to her, as beyond being one of nine critically important Supreme Court Justices, she was a person who had lived a long life, had friends and family, and lived through a great wealth of experiences.

But also, for the rest of us that have to deal with the consequences:

Edited September 19, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[Guard Dog]

RIP Justice Ginsburg. This is a woman with whom I almost NEVER agreed. Most of the time she was firmly in the camp of the infallibility of  the democratically elected state. Many times she was on the wrong side of decisions that left the state more powerful and the rights of the individual diminished. She also suggested the court should consider precedents set in foreign courts. But she was also a consistent champion of the 1st Amendment. She was a barrier breaker and has served as an inspiration to women in Gen X, Y and the Millennials many of whom have followed that inspiration into legal careers themselves. If the SCOTUS had a hall of fame I say she should be in it. I might not have liked her opinions but she was tough, tenacious, and above all consequential. 

 

Now, as for the election, buckle your seatbelt. S--t is about to really get going! 

[Orogun01]

31 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Wonder which servile facsimile of a human Trump will rush in.

First ones I found