Any Greatsword build on PotD ?

[ekt0]

I have been a fan of greatsword in RPG games for a long time, mostly because of its look and feel. However, it seems that greatswords are not preferred in this game.

1. There is hardly a good greatsword available, and even The Whisper of the Endless Path is nerfed to the ground.
2. Full Attack mechanic favors dual weapons wielding. It gives you more on hit / crit effects as well as better chance to proc them.
3. The modal ability of greatsword is hard to use. In this game, accuracy is king and the greatsword modal punishes a player by minus 10 accuracy.

According to these flaws, do we still have a good greatsword build for the main character available if we wants to play on PotD difficulty with all level scale up ?

[Elric Galad]

33mn ago and still no post from Boeroer about WotEP's Offensive Parry ?

[ekt0]

4 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

33mn ago and still no post from Boeroer about WotEP's Offensive Parry ?

I have already read that build. Obviously, it is a good one but I think the parry may not proc that many times on PotD.

[Raven Darkholme]

Depends how willing you are to go crazy on buffs (and what kind of mc class you want to play).

In this game it is insanely easy to get way over 200 deflection, but one of the easiest ways to do it is also somewhat tedious and really cheesy.

Full attacks are less great in this game compared to poe 1 because of the damage penalty.

Also once you reach late game there is a way to reach permanent 0 recovery with any weapons including greatswords, but it is as tedious and cheesy as the thing giving you deflection.

[Elric Galad]

I would say that Full Attacks are really optimal with Rogues (because their additive damages bonus pretty much negate the damage penalty), Kind Wayfarer, Skalds (1-handed style being also an option), Single Class Melee Rangers, Dual Mortars SC Barbarian or Monks... and that's about it.

For other class with Full Attacks, going Dual Wield isn't that necessary (even if nice).

Primary Attacks are optimal with 2-handers (Knockdown, Clear Out being the first one to come to my mind). 

[thelee]

1 hour ago, Raven Darkholme said:

Full attacks are less great in this game compared to poe 1 because of the damage penalty.

the damage penalty is only for dual-wield weapons, so two handed weapons are just as good as in poe1. Honestly, PoE1 should've also had some sort of balancing because dual-wield was just so good for full attacks.

 

6 hours ago, ekt0 said:

• Full Attack mechanic favors dual weapons wielding. It gives you more on hit / crit effects as well as better chance to proc them.

37 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I would say that Full Attacks are really optimal with Rogues (because their additive damages bonus pretty much negate the damage penalty)

mathematically, a full attack with a dual-wield is almost equivalent to a two handed weapon; the nature of the damage bonuses and inversion of penalties are such that you pretty much have a similar effect whether or not you use 2w or 2h. It doesn't matter that rogues get so many additive damage bonuses because the penalty is essentially multiplicative. The main difference is that the two handed option will generally have +1 PEN over "equivalent" dual wielded options, and you have two chances to hit with a dual-wielded option. That may certainly matter for proccing something very important like Gambit, Toxic Strike, or Marux Amanth, but in general I don't think is a big deal otherwise. Math follows in spoiler tag.

Spoiler

Two handed weapon are generally balanced to be about 30% multiplicatively stronger than an "equivalent" one handed weapon (more specifically 31% or so). You get a -35% penalty for full attacks with dual wielded weapons. Penalties aren't additive - they are more complex then that. However, for the simple case where you only have one penalty, you can treat it identically as a multiplicative modifier. That means when using two of the same weapon for a dual-wielded attack, you do x*2*.65 damage, or 1.3x damage, which is almost exactly equivalent to the two handed weapon expected damage - this isn't a coincidence. I think this balance change came late enough in the dev cycle such that it is a rare case where OBS actually seemed to understand how their own inversion system worked.

While it is true that you get twice as many chances to land an attack, that only matters if your priority is to trigger some effect. Two handed weapons also have +1 PEN over equivalent single-handed weapons, so if you care about damage, two handed weapons are competitive with dual-wielded.

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by thelee

[thelee]

6 hours ago, ekt0 said:

I have been a fan of greatsword in RPG games for a long time, mostly because of its look and feel. However, it seems that greatswords are not preferred in this game.

1. There is hardly a good greatsword available, and even The Whisper of the Endless Path is nerfed to the ground.
2. Full Attack mechanic favors dual weapons wielding. It gives you more on hit / crit effects as well as better chance to proc them.
3. The modal ability of greatsword is hard to use. In this game, accuracy is king and the greatsword modal punishes a player by minus 10 accuracy.

According to these flaws, do we still have a good greatsword build for the main character available if we wants to play on PotD difficulty with all level scale up ?

1. i think there are plenty of wonderful great swords. Twin Eels for example is excellent sustain in many fights. The real problem with great swords is the poor modal (as you mention) and their poor PEN - they have the worst of any 2h weapon, and unlike 1h weapons you have no modal to boost its PEN. On PotD this is a real big problem.

I had great success with a devoted, the bonus PEN really helps. Outside of that, you should look towards parties and builds that help you mitigate the PEN and accuracy problem (so you can keep the damage modal on). Supporting/playing as a priest (champion's boon), chanter (shield cracks) are good, playing as a monk (thunderous blows), cipher (hammering thoughts, body attunement), berserker (frenzy) are all ways of helping with PEN, for example.

 

(Edit: Oh, and boeroer's build. Like others mention it's really not that hard to get a huge deflection bonus temporarily with a modest deflection bonus more persistently. It's only hard/tedious to get that huge bonus persistently)

Edited June 16, 2020 by thelee

[Boeroer]

6 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

33mn ago and still no post from Boeroer about WotEP's Offensive Parry ?

I'm in the middle of a move from Bucharest to Berlin.

Whispers of the Endless Paths is of course not nerfed to the ground. It's one of the best weapons - with the right setup. Stuff like Mirrored Images or Arcane Veil stack with Vigorous Defense and Llengrath's Safeguard - add several ACC debuffs (Devotions, Despondent Blows, blind, Miasma) to enemies and Offensive Party will trigger a lot. And by the way WotEP has +1 PEN in comparison to all other Great Swords which is often overlooked. But yeah - it's a very defensive approach so maybe not anybody's cup of tea. Also not great against casters and ranged enemies obviously. But you can always switch.

Voidward has the highest single target damage potential of all Great Swords. Its Necrotic Lance profits from the weapon's damage enhancements and it has a raw lash which is always awesome. If you can handle the self damage you should take it (in my optionion). Rel. hard to get by early though. 

If you want want to use the modal you could look at Firebrand (Druid or scroll). It always works with the Ring of Focused Flames so that you won't have an ACC malus bus get the additional damage. You could also use a Paladin and spam Flames of Devotion which also works with the Ring and has its own +10 ACC on top. 

You get the best Great Sword if you exchange it with a Morning Star right before each fight.

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Boeroer

[Raven Darkholme]

1 hour ago, thelee said:

the damage penalty is only for dual-wield weapons, so two handed weapons are just as good as in poe1. Honestly, PoE1 should've also had some sort of balancing because dual-wield was just so good for full attacks.

 

mathematically, a full attack with a dual-wield is almost equivalent to a two handed weapon; the nature of the damage bonuses and inversion of penalties are such that you pretty much have a similar effect whether or not you use 2w or 2h. It doesn't matter that rogues get so many additive damage bonuses because the penalty is essentially multiplicative. The main difference is that the two handed option will generally have +1 PEN over "equivalent" dual wielded options, and you have two chances to hit with a dual-wielded option. That may certainly matter for proccing something very important like Gambit, Toxic Strike, or Marux Amanth, but in general I don't think is a big deal otherwise. Math follows in spoiler tag.

  Reveal hidden contents

Two handed weapon are generally balanced to be about 30% multiplicatively stronger than an "equivalent" one handed weapon (more specifically 31% or so). You get a -35% penalty for full attacks with dual wielded weapons. Penalties aren't additive - they are more complex then that. However, for the simple case where you only have one penalty, you can treat it identically as a multiplicative modifier. That means when using two of the same weapon for a dual-wielded attack, you do x*2*.65 damage, or 1.3x damage, which is almost exactly equivalent to the two handed weapon expected damage - this isn't a coincidence. I think this balance change came late enough in the dev cycle such that it is a rare case where OBS actually seemed to understand how their own inversion system worked.

While it is true that you get twice as many chances to land an attack, that only matters if your priority is to trigger some effect. Two handed weapons also have +1 PEN over equivalent single-handed weapons, so if you care about damage, two handed weapons are competitive with dual-wielded.

 

Yeah sorry I worded that wrong, because I replied to op who said

 

7 hours ago, ekt0 said:

I have been a fan of greatsword in RPG games for a long time, mostly because of its look and feel. However, it seems that greatswords are not preferred in this game.

1. There is hardly a good greatsword available, and even The Whisper of the Endless Path is nerfed to the ground.
2. Full Attack mechanic favors dual weapons wielding. It gives you more on hit / crit effects as well as better chance to proc them.
3. The modal ability of greatsword is hard to use. In this game, accuracy is king and the greatsword modal punishes a player by minus 10 accuracy.

According to these flaws, do we still have a good greatsword build for the main character available if we wants to play on PotD difficulty with all level scale up ?

So what I meant to say was full attacks with dw, but somehow my lazines won and I only typed full attacks.

[thelee]

49 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Voidward has the highest single target damage potential of all Great Swords. Its Necrotic Lance profits from the weapon's damage enhancements and it has a raw lash which is always awesome. If you can handle the self damage you should take it (in my optionion). Rel. hard to get by early though. 

If you want want to use the modal you could look at Firebrand (Druid or scroll). It always works with the Ring of Focused Flames so that you won't have an ACC malus bus get the additional damage. You could also use a Paladin and spam Flames of Devotion which also works with the Ring and has its own +10 ACC on top. 

as an additional option, priest of berath gets a great sword spiritual weapon. It's potentially a +31% corrode lash which is probably the best brute-force damage great sword in the game. But no synergy with Ring of Focused Flames, which probably in practice makes Firebrand better (which has a +25% fire lash).

[Boeroer]

Right. Berath's one is also nice. 

Is it still the case that Firebrand's duration is twice as long as Spiritual Weapons'? Never checked after the buff to Firebrand (which had no lash initially but was only a scaling Great Sword that did burn damage with a base duration of 60 secs). 

[ekt0]

Thanks everyone for your reply.

I guess there is only one strong build then -- the fighter / wizard with WotEP.

Clearly, greatswords need more love on the next PoE, if there is one.

[Powerotti]

Not only fighter/wizard. Trickster or Priest of Wael can do the same with Offensive Parry and, instead of fighter, you can dual it with paladin. Or actually any class if forcing disengagement attacks with Nomad's Brigandine, but then parrying and casting simultaneously is impossible.

[thelee]

Depends on your definition of "strong" I suppose. The metagaming possibilities of great swords are limited enough (e.g. no real degenerate combos) that even a single-class streetfighter would make for a powerful great sword build.

[Boeroer]

Bloodmage/Steel Garotte with WotEP is one of my favorites. Soulblade/Trickster is also great with it.

[dgray62]

Boeroer, I tried the Bloodmage/Steel Garotte with WotEP a few months ago but was a bit disappointed with the damage output. I realize, however, that I was focusing too much on using spells for buffs and doing damage via auto attacks with WotEP. I realize now that the beauty of this build is casting offensively while WotEP's offensive parry wounds and dazes attackers while healing you. This being the case, I was wondering what spells you use most with this build. I was thinking that spells such as chill fog and combusting wounds and the wall spells would be particularly useful. Which spells do you take on level up, and which grimoires do you use? I was thinking it might be a good idea to take a few buffs as well as bread and butter spells, while using grimores such as Iron-clasped.

[Kaylon]

There are two good builds around Voidwheel if you don't mind playing a steel garrote. One is the steel garrote/assassin (or trickster if you want more survivability) which has huge backstab damage potential (with modal activated) and has also good single target dps, coupled with decent survivability.

The other one is the steel garrote/helwalker spamming Raised Torment. The constant self draining from the sword coupled with Hylea's Talons ensure plenty of wounds and you can keep most enemies stunned while also dealing good AoE damage.

[Boeroer]

7 hours ago, dgray62 said:

Boeroer, I tried the Bloodmage/Steel Garotte with WotEP a few months ago but was a bit disappointed with the damage output. I realize, however, that I was focusing too much on using spells for buffs and doing damage via auto attacks with WotEP. I realize now that the beauty of this build is casting offensively while WotEP's offensive parry wounds and dazes attackers while healing you. This being the case, I was wondering what spells you use most with this build. I was thinking that spells such as chill fog and combusting wounds and the wall spells would be particularly useful. Which spells do you take on level up, and which grimoires do you use? I was thinking it might be a good idea to take a few buffs as well as bread and butter spells, while using grimores such as Iron-clasped.

Yes, that's indeed why I like that build. It's passively draining + dazing while offensively casting. Eternal Devotion works with damaging spells. I used Arcane Veil, Mirrored Images, Llengrath's Safeguard (stacks with the others) as self buffs mostly, also infuse. Later Wall of Draining of course (because of Hands of Light). Also Inspired Beacon and Sacred Immolation. Spells: I didn't pick a lot because I try to use grimoires for spell portfolio and thus get more points for passives etc. Citzal's Corrosive Siphon, Death Ring, Combjsting Wounds, Torrent of Flames and such stuff. Depends a lot on the enemies. Minoletta's Piercing Burst is also great. 

[dgray62]

Thanks for the advice, Boeroer. I think I'll try this build out again.

[ekt0]

On 6/16/2020 at 10:22 PM, thelee said:

Two handed weapon are generally balanced to be about 30% multiplicatively stronger than an "equivalent" one handed weapon (more specifically 31% or so). You get a -35% penalty for full attacks with dual wielded weapons. Penalties aren't additive - they are more complex then that. However, for the simple case where you only have one penalty, you can treat it identically as a multiplicative modifier. That means when using two of the same weapon for a dual-wielded attack, you do x*2*.65 damage, or 1.3x damage, which is almost exactly equivalent to the two handed weapon expected damage - this isn't a coincidence. I think this balance change came late enough in the dev cycle such that it is a rare case where OBS actually seemed to understand how their own inversion system worked.

While it is true that you get twice as many chances to land an attack, that only matters if your priority is to trigger some effect. Two handed weapons also have +1 PEN over equivalent single-handed weapons, so if you care about damage, two handed weapons are competitive with dual-wielded.

I have thought about this for a while and I think I disagree with your point. Dual wielding is still superior to 2-handed weapon because of on hit / crit effects. These effects not only are of weapons but also are of many more gears such as Heaven's Cacophony or Boltcatcher. When you combines all on hit / crit effects from all gears, the 2nd chance from 2nd hit matters. In some dire situations, it might help turning the table by killing the crucial enemies like casters or healers.

Moreoever, 2-handed weapons do not always have more penetration than single-handed ones. A great sword has only 7 penetration, which is equal to that of a sabre. 

In my opinion, to balance this, full attack mechanic has to be reworked, buffing 2-handed and 1-handed a little more.

[thelee]

10 minutes ago, ekt0 said:

A great sword has only 7 penetration, which is equal to that of a sabre. 

Two handed weapons have +1 over "equivalent" slow one hand weapons. Great sword does two damage types and does high damage, which puts its equivalent as the sword, which has 6 PEN.

[dunehunter]

Actually Effort is a very strong weapon because the Maiming enchantment. It is 15% of your TOTAL damage as raw damage per 3 second for 6 second, so with 10 INT, its 0, 3, 6 second 3 ticks equals to extra 45% raw damage in total, which can be extended by more invest into INT. It's like a weaker version of Axe bleeding cut and you get Effort in the very early part of the game.

Imo for pure dps aspect, Effort is better than Voidwheel or any other gswords, unless u want the self-damage part of voidwheel to get wounds and etc. Basically there are three big factor of damage you do, 1) basic damage and damage bonus, 2) lash, 3) wounding DoT, you want all the three part to be high to do more damage. For example, a bleakwalker/assassin can do up to 300 (900 if including DoT) damage in one shot with backstab, greataxe and FoD.

Edited June 24, 2020 by dunehunter

[Boeroer]

Effort's raw DoT doesn't stack with itself - while Bleeding Cuts do (Saru Sichr's slow ticking poison also does). That's why Bleeding Cuts (or Saru Sichr) is a lot better if you are hitting some high HP foe for a longer period of time (most bosses etc.).

Same problem with Stalker's Patience (which even has a higher raw DoT. 

Still great weapons though. If you are facing more than one enemy it also doesn't matter too much that the DoTs don't stack: you can simply alternate your targets and make sure you get the most out of the DoTs (which again: are indeed quite strong).

[Haplok]

3 hours ago, ekt0 said:

I have thought about this for a while and I think I disagree with your point. Dual wielding is still superior to 2-handed weapon because of on hit / crit effects. These effects not only are of weapons but also are of many more gears such as Heaven's Cacophony or Boltcatcher. When you combines all on hit / crit effects from all gears, the 2nd chance from 2nd hit matters. In some dire situations, it might help turning the table by killing the crucial enemies like casters or healers.

 

Then there is the matter of responsiveness. Ability to react to situation, interrupt enemy actions, switch targets, heal/cure/buff oneself - or others. For all those things weapons with shorter Recovery (dual wielding is fastest) are vastly better. Reloading weapons are the best responsiveness wise (except for reacting with weapon abilities).

Edited June 24, 2020 by Haplok

[thelee]

10 hours ago, ekt0 said:

I have thought about this for a while and I think I disagree with your point. Dual wielding is still superior to 2-handed weapon because of on hit / crit effects. These effects not only are of weapons but also are of many more gears such as Heaven's Cacophony or Boltcatcher. When you combines all on hit / crit effects from all gears, the 2nd chance from 2nd hit matters. In some dire situations, it might help turning the table by killing the crucial enemies like casters or healers.

true - i did carve out important on-hit effects as exceptions where stacking isn't relevant (i cited toxic strike and marux amanth as big examples). i think this is a YMMV - over time the type of gear i use doesn't generally rely on that many important on-hit/crit effects so it's less of a huge advantage for dual wielding.

it's also important to note that while two handed weapons have +1 PEN over equivalent one handed weapons in general, many two-handed weapons have no way of further increasing their PEN, only estoc. So in practice, one-handed weapons might do better in low-PEN situations than two-handed weapons. (though estoc is pen king). again, these days my parties tend to be so planned ahead in advance that i have ez solutions to PEN/AR problems instead of it being an ad-hoc problem to solve (e.g. some source of tenacious inspiration, potions, etc.)

 

6 hours ago, Haplok said:

Then there is the matter of responsiveness. Ability to react to situation, interrupt enemy actions, switch targets, heal/cure/buff oneself - or others. For all those things weapons with shorter Recovery (dual wielding is fastest) are vastly better. Reloading weapons are the best responsiveness wise (except for reacting with weapon abilities).

this is very true, but for me mostly means i don't use two-handed weapons (or atleast avoid using them) on casters or caster hybrids, unless i have a lot of action speed bonuses. i don't think this is that big of a deal for more pure martial characters, at least once you have a few levels (and therefore more health [edit: to withstand some sluggishness when you need to heal]) under your belt.

Edited June 24, 2020 by thelee