Coronavirus: Triple Edition

[Gromnir]

use singular anecdotal to extrapolate generalized rule regarding effectiveness o' mask wearing is stoopid, regardless o' what is your country o' origin.  

the experts are not all over the place regarding the effectiveness o' masks where is significant asymptomatic community spread. asymptomatic spread o' covid-19, a novel virus, were not understood well back even in february and early march, so take quotes from experts at such times is pointless. there is general consensus that masks does help reduce spread o' virus when you got significant numbers o' asymptomatic people who you failed to tests and contact trace. will always be a few expert outliers... which is why hydroxy advocates is able to persist. 

where experts is all over the place is how much additional danger you is in by wearing various kinda masks. a warm and damp cloth held against your nostrils and mouth is unlikely to be offering protection from virus and quite possible increases your personal risk. folks also have a difficult time with adjusting masks, and touching your damp and warm mask with hands which may have come in contact with covid-19 is, one assumes, bad. how much is risk increased by wearing such masks? dunno. is obvious a difficult thing to study.

masks are not useless 'cause vol can point to people in ______ who have avoided covid-19 w/o resorting to masks. Gromnir has never gone through chemotherapy and we has nevertheless avoided a cancer diagnosis. ergo, chemo is ineffective and pointless for treating cancer. 

dumb, for obvious reasons.

if you live in a place where, for example, insufficient testing and inadequate contact tracing led to significant asymptomatic community spread, then general mask wearing mandates make sense and is useful. experts agree. such places includes large parts o' asia, europe, central america, south america and north america. 

'course thanks to vol wacky transitive property schtick, as an american our observations regarding covid-19 is a presumptive fail.

well, ok then.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Gromnir

[Elerond]

6 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Elerond I know how much you hate disappointing me so I must give you chance to clarify , are you saying Finland has mishandled the virus spread due to not making masks mandatory and now there are mask shortages. You guys must be ordering the hospital required masks and this  is not necessary....you just need a normal mask  

The mask you need just stops spread.....it is considered unethical for civilians to be ordering the masks\PPE that are needed for hospital front-line staff

In a sense yes. Wasn't it major misstep, considering how things went

Reasons to say it was mishandling things

1. It lead workers in elderly care centers not use masks, which has caused most of the covid caused deaths in  Finland
2. They focused in their decision making to hospital quality masks and it wasn't until end of May when they started to look if home made masks etc. would work to prevent spread.
3. Their inability to explain their decision making early on lead to unnecessary panic about sufficiency of mask storages

And why it was not major misstep

1. Our hospitals never actually run out of mask, even though they used about million in day in worst weeks (in normal year our hospitals don't use million mask in a year)
2. Total death toll is quite low 329 (from which bit over half has been in elderly care centers) and it is not certain that mandatory masks would have saved those elderly care centers, as they happened early on and centers had masks in their hospital quality masks in their storages, but their leadership keep them for some reason behind lock even with government recommendations to use masks in any interaction with elders.
3. Infection rate never rose high as people just stayed home, so not using mask never ended to matter

[Zoraptor]

Wearing masks wouldn't stop rest home deaths, unfortunately. Even proper medical masks w/filter only reduce exposure risk, by the nature of rest homes there's constant uncontrollable ongoing contact between residents and carers; even worse if there are a lot of already more vulnerable old people there. We had two outbreaks in specialist dementia rest homes which accounted for ~3/4 of our death toll, and most of the infections occurred after the oldies were out of the rest home and in proper hospitals (and that was also where most of our infected health workers came from too). You couldn't even reliably test most of those patients, trying to shove a swab up someone with dementia's nose or throat or take a blood sample is a non trivial undertaking.

We also had panic about mask availability. Pretty sure that's just a consequence of having, well, media. If you listen to the media we would be simultaneously opening our borders while reducing quarantine times, and not letting anyone in; should have gone into lockdown earlier and simultaneously opened up earlier with fewer restrictions and more restrictions; behaved like Australia because their economy was less effected and not behaved like Australia. And yes, we were simultaneously using too many masks and not saving enough for a rainy day.

2 hours ago, Gromnir said:

use singular anecdotal to extrapolate generalized rule regarding effectiveness o' mask wearing is stoopid, regardless o' what is your country o' origin. 

No, it isn't. As always, stuff you agree with = data, stuff you don't agree with = anecdotes. If you follow the social distancing rules properly you don't need to wear masks, full stop. The problem is that people in places like the US won't follow the rules, the rules aren't consistent, people aren't informed properly or practice freedum or whatever. They won't wear masks, but they also won't do anything else. Stay 2m apart, wash your hands, don't go out if you're coughing or sneezing. If people had done that you wouldn't need masks.

Much of the reason for masks being advocated is that Asian countries have had successful covid strategies. They weren't using masks as a mitigation factor though, they were countries that got a major scare with previous outbreaks like SARS, had proper plans in place and where mask use and basic prevention tactics was cultural. They had well communicated rules, a populace that understood the issues and was willing to take the steps necessary to deal with outbreaks (or in China's case, a military willing to make sure they did even if they didn't). Those are the factors common to all countries that have dealt successfully with the virus. Cultural level mask wearing was common to some successful countries, but by no means all.

[Gromnir]

*chuckle*

28 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

No, it isn't.

yeah it is, and isn't actual debatable, but knock yourself out  anyways. go ahead and argue singular anecdotal is persuasive.  

"don't go out if you're coughing or sneezing"

okie dokie.

with large numbers o' folks already infected, high transmissibility, and previous unknown percentage o' asymptomatic people transmitting, awareness o' rules you mentions no longer guarantees safety. the actual experts make clear how best options is social distancing. is why you don't need a mask when you shelter at home. duh. mask is only for when you go out someplace and ideal social distancing may prove impossible. real world means social distancing is not always possible and initial flubs on testing and contact tracing means that in many places, unlike nz, there is infected people everywhere, unknown, who is not coughing and sneezing.

but yeah, you go ahead and use singular and anecdotal and champion the guy who uses meme as support. 

HA! Good Fun!

[rjshae]

[Zoraptor]

2 hours ago, Gromnir said:

*chuckle*

yeah it is,

No they're not.

Your country wouldn't have got to the point where masks are needed, if you followed the rules to stop transmission. You didn't, so masks are needed now. But if you'd followed the rules they wouldn't be.

The factors countries with successful responses all had in common simply do not include compulsory masks. The US is not in the state it is because people refused to wear masks, it's in the state it is because none of the necessary factors for control were consistently applied. Having to have compulsory mask wearing to minimise spread is a sign of and response to failure.

Your argument is effectively that because the US didn't stop smoking and got lung cancer chemotherapy is necessary for anyone who wants functioning lungs. Nope, if you have a bit of self control and don't smoke then you don't generally need chemotherapy. And ironically, it's Trump HCQ prophylaxis argument in different clothes.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Zoraptor

[Volourn]

Grom is still funny. He actually expects non Amerikans to take his silly lectures seriously when he and his fellow patriots can't even get things right in his own country. EPIC FAIL.

Next, a Russian will lecture me about democracy. LMAO

[Gromnir]

so again, masks is not useless in US and uk.... and italy, france and belgium. let's just say, "much of europe?" add much o' central america and south america. african countries is well known for their populace having faith in announcements made by government, so no doubt "followed the rules" is already doomed.  wanna quibble over asia?  HA. okie dokie. throw you a bone. won't say most o' asia if it makes you feel better, but that is a tough call considering example o' india. trump may not know where india is, but am betting zor does. nevertheless, even if we carve out asia as somehow having used masks but never needed, you still got much o' the planet's population benefiting from masks precise 'cause o' how humans actual behave as 'posed to how zor would like.

being utter ridiculous and refusing to admit it... like vol.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Gromnir
changed a period to a comma... for funsies

[Skarpen]

I seriously don't think someone from a country that achieved like 25% of worldwide cases and deaths should instruct people on what works and sharing a know-how like an expert. 

[Gromnir]

9 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

I seriously don't think someone from a country that achieved like 25% of worldwide cases and deaths should instruct people on what works and sharing a know-how like an expert. 

you are also repeating vol's idiotic arguments, so congrats. now we got enough for the nursery rhyme... though is doubtful bloody mary blinds and castrates as rhyme suggests. 'pretty sure those guys, the three blind mice,  were burned at the stake, but even for Gromnir has been a long time since we studied such.

the act on the institute of national remembrance. ring a bell?  nobody from a nation who passes such a law could have any valid input on free speech, yes? 

no. 'course not.

this kinda stuff should be axiomatic. inexplicable, volisms is spreading like a virus, and we would agree that 'gainst vol, masks is no defense. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

[ktchong]

From my "The Age of MAGA" music collection...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by ktchong

[Skarpen]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

the act on the institute of national remembrance. ring a bell?  nobody from a nation who passes such a law could have any valid input on free speech, yes? 

Don't you agree that Holocaust denial and Germany war crimes denial shouldn't be accepted?

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Skarpen said:

Don't you agree that Holocaust denial and Germany war crimes denial shouldn't be accepted?

am not believing a nation which believes in free speech criminalizes such, but poland went a bit further, yes? is criminal to publicly claim that poland had any responsibility for or complicity in the holocaust.

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

so yeah, poland gets a fail on the free speech report card. if we use your reasoning regarding the indelible stain o' national origin, am forced to conclude this dialogue is not only moot but a horrible admission o' your own hypocrisy.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 14, 2020 by Gromnir
missed a "criminal"

[BruceVC]

3 hours ago, Skarpen said:

I seriously don't think someone from a country that achieved like 25% of worldwide cases and deaths should instruct people on what works and sharing a know-how like an expert. 

But the spread of the virus in the country doesn't mean USA citizens cant or shouldn't comment on best virus spread 

The virus spread in the USA is a result of the politicizing of the virus and then certain US citizens rejecting basic things like masks. Unless Gromnir acted like this he can definitely  comment and he should because he personally is not one of the US citizens responsible directly or indirectly to virus spread 

[BruceVC]

10 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

 

No, it isn't. As always, stuff you agree with = data, stuff you don't agree with = anecdotes. If you follow the social distancing rules properly you don't need to wear masks, full stop. The problem is that people in places like the US won't follow the rules, the rules aren't consistent, people aren't informed properly or practice freedum or whatever. They won't wear masks, but they also won't do anything else. Stay 2m apart, wash your hands, don't go out if you're coughing or sneezing. If people had done that you wouldn't need masks.

Much of the reason for masks being advocated is that Asian countries have had successful covid strategies. They weren't using masks as a mitigation factor though, they were countries that got a major scare with previous outbreaks like SARS, had proper plans in place and where mask use and basic prevention tactics was cultural. They had well communicated rules, a populace that understood the issues and was willing to take the steps necessary to deal with outbreaks (or in China's case, a military willing to make sure they did even if they didn't). Those are the factors common to all countries that have dealt successfully with the virus. Cultural level mask wearing was common to some successful countries, but by no means all.

Zora this is not accurate, we know now that virus is spread through molecules that float in the air and that happens when you talk, sneeze, shout or sing

So in any confined space these floating molecules become real spread vectors so night clubs and places like churches these floating molecules increase exposure in an absolutely exponential way   

The masks reduce this by 85-90 % because the molecules dont go through the mask. So not wearing masks only applies now if you can guarantee yourself you have no virus expose that would practically mean you never leave your own safe home environment or you someone never go into any confined space., And short of daily tests or regular tests due to asymptomatic carriers you dont know if you have virus and not wearing a mask  means you will always spread the invisible molecules 

This is a fact on the virus spread and therefore mask should always be worn and social distancing is not enough as the molecules float and stay in areas you were talking or singing

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by BruceVC

[Gorth]

24 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

But the spread of the virus in the country doesn't mean USA citizens cant or shouldn't comment on best virus spread 

The virus spread in the USA is a result of the politicizing of the virus and then certain US citizens rejecting basic things like masks. Unless Gromnir acted like this he can definitely  comment and he should because he personally is not one of the US citizens responsible directly or indirectly to virus spread 

Mate, stop with the logic, yes? This is the internet... some people are immune to logic (if not to covid19). Yes, the whole "you're from country x therefore you are not entitled to contribute to a subject" is... yeah. Insert your own thoughts here, welcome to the internet

 

[Skarpen]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

am not believing a nation which believes in free speech criminalizes such, but poland went a bit further, yes? is criminal to publicly claim that poland had any responsibility for or complicity in the holocaust.

You missed the word "falsely" for once and I see you are talking about the amendment to the act rather then the act itself. The amendment only gives the appropriate institutions tools to prosecute people who defame Poland. I assume even with all the free speech in US there are defamation laws, yes?

Maybe I wasn't clear. My intention wasn't to say "if you are from country x you cannot contribute to discussion about y". What I meant was: arguing that your country methods are better than methods in other country while the results are not in favor of your country is not very convincing.

 

[Gromnir]

4 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

You missed the word "falsely" for once and I see you are talking about the amendment to the act rather then the act itself. The amendment only gives the appropriate institutions tools to prosecute people who defame Poland. I assume even with all the free speech in US there are defamation laws, yes?

 

accusations o' polish complicity and responsibility is presumed false, so no juice there... and you do realize what an amendment does, yes? when we speak o' the US Constitution, it includes all the amendments, 'cause, y'know, it functional rewrites and/or adds parts to the Constitution. an amendment is incorporated into the original by law. is the freaking point o' amendments.

also, no, the US cannot bring a defamation claim 'gainst a person if they speak untruths about US responsibility/complicity for the holocaust. governments, pretty much everywhere in the free world, is unable to bring defamation or libel claims unless they grant themselves statutory authority to do so... and the US does not. you are describing personal torts. stress on person. governments don't count as persons.

and again, poland presumes falsehood and CRIMINALIZES. defamation is a tort. duh. civil v. criminal. is a big difference 'tween criminal and civil.

*sigh*

your clarification is, as usual, bs. our bs receptivity factor is low, so ain't buying. is clear what you wrote and how you responded when we first chided. am suspecting you now realize how idiotic were your initial position after attempting to defend it. clarification woulda' precluded a defense as it were defending something you now claim you didn't actual say/mean. 

oh, and is clear Gromnir is not advocating the position o' the US, 'cause the US keeps ignoring those experts who advocate such stuff as mask mandates, so your comment is even more obvious bs.

you are so punching above your weight.

you made a blunder and repeated a volism. learn from the mistake as others have failed to do.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[BruceVC]

11 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

 

Maybe I wasn't clear. My intention wasn't to say "if you are from country x you cannot contribute to discussion about y". What I meant was: arguing that your country methods are better than methods in other country while the results are not in favor of your country is not very convincing.

 

Yes this broader point about the USA is unfortunately true. I am not sure Gromnir was saying this but one thing no US citizen can say is there virus prevention methods have been overly and sustainably  effective or should be practiced

The actual outcome of the mask denial argument, BLM protests and the politicizing of the virus means the USA will now have thousands more deaths and there economical recovery and critical contribution towards the worlds economic recovery will be delayed by months. This impacts us all apart from our countries economic recovery as the world is inextricably  connected through so many economic, underlying metrics that some of these I never realized how they mattered because these things always just work 

The world and this form of " globalization " was never deigned or rather organically created  to be subjected to the global economic shutdown that the virus created. And that means the damage done to everyone of our countries economies has been drastically impacted and somethings cannot be fixed even by the local government due to  how these factors operate in the world of " globalization "

Now this will be resolved and stabilized but it looks like we will need the vaccine to achieve this, so the best you can do as any government and all citizens is work towards addressing virus spread, you wont stop it until the vaccine,  and trying to get all valid institutions, like schools,  and businesses can operate and function in a "virus aware world "

So in closing the USA delayed economic recovery just delays the final time we get the world functioning as it use to  be. The new world I will predict will be where we all will take the Corona vaccine 2 times a year as the Corona anti-bodies arent permanent., this has been confirmed by that latest study in Spain. Of course the clever doctors will probably find a way of extending vaccine Corona anti-bodies but that will come as time goes on 

 

[HoonDing]

No one gets to lecture anyone on anything.

[Skarpen]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

again, poland presumes falsehood and CRIMINALIZES. defamation is a tort. duh. civil v. criminal. is a big difference 'tween criminal and civil.

This is false as the passed law categorized it as civil offense not criminal. 

And I see as always Gromnir knows better what someone had in mind than that person. Amusing as always.

[BruceVC]

31 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

No one gets to lecture anyone on anything.

We dont use  words like " lecture" or " interfere"  or " regime change " when we do exactly these things because these things are still necessary but its all about the framing of these words and how you actually do it. For example I am again supportive of legitimate regime change in real examples we see in the world, for example take Assad of Syria 

But nowadays after learning from the outcomes of Libya, Afghanistan  and Iraq you can see how regime change is necessary at times but you need to be clear on getting the correct new government in who obviously would support the broader principles of any Democracy and successful country , the EU or Canada , but you need to support them initially both financially and sometimes militarily 

This now becomes the real question, can you justify to your tax base the new burden on your overall financial revenue streams? Nowadays its very hard and personally I would  battle to be convinced of any current conflicts if I was a US  citizen,  the exception is Iran but Trump bought the USA back into this and now  it only can  resolved by the USA  . The invasion of Iraq was different in a different era and I would still support if I look at the current better ME 

 

[Hurlshort]

There is an entire entertainment industry built on defaming the US government, so clearly that isn't illegal in the US.

[Gorth]

10 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

There is an entire entertainment industry built on defaming the US government, so clearly that isn't illegal in the US.

The UK had Monty Python, Denmark has regular newspaper satire featuring both Queen and government, Australia has Juice Media and their "Honest Government ads". You need to be really scared when regimes becomes totalitarian in nature and don't allow critical voices. 1933 says hello.

 

(the Australian right wing government tried and raided the offices ABC News when they didn't like their reporting, but I think they learned that negative PR is not better than no PR)

 

[Gromnir]

3 hours ago, Skarpen said:

This is false as the passed law categorized it as civil offense not criminal. 

And I see as always Gromnir knows better what someone had in mind than that person. Amusing as always.

no.

as passed, were indeed criminal. were potential three years in prison for such.

2018 amendment (remember those) made the complicity o' poland aspect  defamation and you don't consider amendments as part o' the act anyways, so...

you don't even know your own country's laws. prime minister stated how even with amendment, people deserved to be in jail for suggesting polish complicity, but 'cause poland needs exist in an "international context," pressures from US, israel and rest o' europe would be considered and the amendment were added. fail.

btw, defamation tort requires a showing o' damages. with rare exceptions, torts is NOT 'bout punishment but is 'bout making a person whole. again, a person needs be made whole. poland is an exception with making it possible for a nation to bring such a claim, for obvious reasons. in the US v. skarpy, the imagined defamation claim, the US would need show actual damages. how? in vol v. skarpy, where vol, a person (sorta) is accusing skarpy o' spurious lies 'bout vol's complicity in the holocaust, vol must show how such lies damaged him... actual damage which could conceivable be repaired by money. lost job. lost clients in business. curiously, loss o' consortium if married and vol's wife/husband leaves because o' the lies, which we always thought were kinda funny but it is a thing.  

such practicalities is one reason why nations like the US don't create legislation to bring defamation claims. would be tough to make any kinda damage claim w/o also writing into the statute specific damage awards... which means is no longer actual defamation. oh, and is also not a US thing because US notions o' free speech makes such claims kinda repugnant. can't defame or libel the US. period.

so to review, again, no.  were criminal to suggest poland were complicit in holocaust  along with holocaust denial, and the US don't do this kinda nonsense, 'cause is stoopid, wong and violates free speech notions.

10 hours ago, Skarpen said:

I seriously don't think someone from a country that achieved like 25% of worldwide cases and deaths should instruct people on what works and sharing a know-how like an expert. 

is nothing in there 'bout Gromnir arguing how the US methods is better than... kanada's? this started with vol, so your tortured argument is becoming more difficult to untangle. am a textualists, but any kinda read o' the above has us seeing your, "what i meant," as bs. 

"What I meant was: arguing that your country methods are better than methods in other country while the results are not in favor of your country is not very convincing."

we didn't actual do what you claim were the point o' your admonition, and recognizing how your correction took multiple posts to find its way into your posts, am calling bs.  consider the gaslighting a fail.

regardless, given poland's complete free speech fail, regardless and because o' 2018 amendment, as well as now multiple posts by skarp defending, any future discussion o' free speech by skarp must necessarily elicit a condemnation o' hypocrisy. congrats. you started with a two-line defense o' vol which were wholly ignorant and somehow backed yourself into a corner on free speech where you is defending poland's criminalization o' holocaust denialism and defamation o poland complicity. well played?

HA! Good Fun!