Politics XXXVI (will catch up to superbowls soon)

[Orogun01]

9 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

Yeah keep telling yourself that.  Crime, poverty, and inequality may just go away if you keep worshipping the number crunching market God.

Like @Gorth I don't have the answers but I'm willing to bet that voting against these 2 parties that got us into this is probably the best place to start.

Notice how every Democrat who runs as a progressive (medicare for all, better wages, higher learning etc) always ends up getting sucked into the corporate machinery of the party?

It's just proof that Democrats on their own are not enough to improve things or successfully tackle the Republicans, they need a 3rd party to "fuse" with.

I honestly don't think you understand market economics, but that's due to the fact that you likely grew in monopoly (at least a visual one) and aren't involved in production. I too used to think that way until I got a small corporate job and saw how a small company owned a large share of their product market. Since then I became very interested in how businesses grow and I will tell you that there are a lot more factors to inequality than Millionaires are bad. I don't know your economic background but I've; by virtue of mine, met people that are housekeepers. They're essentially janitors to rich people, but are payed way more than janitors. That's the market economy, some people have more capital than others and can pay more for services. Now if those services are too expensive, like they're mandated to give them healthcare (which leads to inflated prices because of price inflation) they will likely get a roomba and call it a day.
Leftist social programs don't work because they always start from the premise of "Infinite money dumped into this issue will solve it" which is never the case.

[Guard Dog]

The LP has nominated Jo Jorgensen to be our Presidential nominee. I have nothing against her. She is very smart and well educated. MBA at SMU and PhD in Psychology at Clemson. She is a professor there when she is not on the LP executive committee. Yes, she is a party hack. The biggest problem is no one has ever heard of her. And that is not likely to change between now and November. 

Basically she was the best of bad choices. Jacob Hornberger is pretty much a terrible person that no one likes and this f-----g guy actually came in third:

The fact that this happened tells you just how lost the cause is. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

The Libertarian Party, like all parties who ain't Republican or Democrat, is never going anywhere because in addition to the lockout created by the main two parties and media its strategy is to boost party hacks or Republican/Democrat dropouts that bore folks instead of some crazy mother****er like Vermin Supreme who would get attention. This strategy will ends up reinforcing the image of the various "third parties" as knockoffs of one of the two big ones with more or less focus on particular issues rather than a genuine alternative (which does have truth to it). Voting isn't going to change anything and putting pressure outside the ballot box is more likely to get people what they want than supporting a demented creep or some party hack in the hopes next cycle will be better.

[ComradeYellow]

32 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

The Libertarian Party, like all parties who ain't Republican or Democrat, is never going anywhere because in addition to the lockout created by the main two parties and media its strategy is to boost party hacks or Republican/Democrat dropouts that bore folks instead of some crazy mother****er like Vermin Supreme who would get attention. This strategy will ends up reinforcing the image of the various "third parties" as knockoffs of one of the two big ones with more or less focus on particular issues rather than a genuine alternative (which does have truth to it). Voting isn't going to change anything and putting pressure outside the ballot box is more likely to get people what they want than supporting a demented creep or some party hack in the hopes next cycle will be better.

But nothing will ever change if we don't elect a 3rd Party candidate.  Obama's failure of a presidency should be clear proof of this.  The only thing that's changing is the rhetoric, which is becoming more toxic and dangerous.  Policy remains the same, which is becoming more and more unsustainable by the year.

[Guard Dog]

@KaineParker you are not wrong. But the goal in THIS election cycle as in the last one is not to make the 2020 nominee President. It's to capture 5% of the national vote. Gary Johnson got to 4.5% with name recognition and a number of media opportunities. Some of those were so utterly squandered with gaffs that the .5% needed might have been lost right there. 

One thing I do like about Jorgensen is she is self aware enough about her chances. Her acceptance speech indicates an understanding of the challenge and a realization there are goals other than an improbable win in this contest.  That is something I'm not sure Johnson & Barr before him had a clue about. 

I really believe it is possible for the LP to achieve electoral success. They have a message that will appeal to a large group of americans who really just want to be left alone and be allowed to live and work in peace. But to have that success we need to make the jump from 3rd party also-ran to contender. Automatic ballot access and campaign matching funds come with 5% of the vote. That is a step that needs to be taken.

For too long the LP has been a joke. A juvenile clown show of fools and frat house antics that see people like Vermin Supreme, John Macafee treated with undeserved credibility.  The fact that VS actually got delegates yesterday indicates it has not grown up yet. Until that happens we will never be able to mount a credible challenge. 

[HoonDing]

Might as well keep Trump at this point

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

2 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

But nothing will ever change if we don't elect a 3rd Party candidate.  Obama's failure of a presidency should be clear proof of this.  The only thing that's changing is the rhetoric, which is becoming more toxic and dangerous.  Policy remains the same, which is becoming more and more unsustainable by the year.

There's nothing to suggest that anything will change if a 3rd party candidate gets elected because even if their platforms are a massive break from the Ds and Rs that doesn't mean they will be able to implement said platform or won't diverge from it once in power. So instead of trying to implement change through voting, I think folks should try the direct action methods that really got us the 8 hour workday and civil rights protections instead of relying on statecraft.

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

@KaineParker you are not wrong. But the goal in THIS election cycle as in the last one is not to make the 2020 nominee President. It's to capture 5% of the national vote. Gary Johnson got to 4.5% with name recognition and a number of media opportunities. Some of those were so utterly squandered with gaffs that the .5% needed might have been lost right there. 

One thing I do like about Jorgensen is she is self aware enough about her chances. Her acceptance speech indicates an understanding of the challenge and a realization there are goals other than an improbable win in this contest.  That is something I'm not sure Johnson & Barr before him had a clue about. 

I really believe it is possible for the LP to achieve electoral success. They have a message that will appeal to a large group of americans who really just want to be left alone and be allowed to live and work in peace. But to have that success we need to make the jump from 3rd party also-ran to contender. Automatic ballot access and campaign matching funds come with 5% of the vote. That is a step that needs to be taken.

For too long the LP has been a joke. A juvenile clown show of fools and frat house antics that see people like Vermin Supreme, John Macafee treated with undeserved credibility.  The fact that VS actually got delegates yesterday indicates it has not grown up yet. Until that happens we will never be able to mount a credible challenge. 

So I disagree with the assumption that a 3rd party rising is necessarily a good thing as well as the merits of electoralism, but I have a few problems with your arguments here specfic about the LP.

First, I think a big reason Johnson (and the Green's hippie grandma Stein) did comparatively well is because of how **** Hillary and Donnie were. However a plurality of Americans didn't bother to vote in the first place and I think that trend will increase more than support for third parties. To this I think that success for such parties hinges upon the lack of likeability of major candidates which can and will fluctuate, so the 5% goal makes sense as a party but isn't much of an incentive to people who aren't already aligned with such a goal.

Secondly, I frequently see assertions how such and such ideologies and platforms will attract a large amount of folks but I don't really see much evidence of any of it. While there's likely large groupings of virtually any ideology, relative to actual population they're marginal. Personally I've met very few "consistent libertarians", most of who called themselves "libertarians" ended up drifting towards one of the Rs or Ds, and of the rest maybe half of them went on to become white nationalists (they were 4chan types to begin with). This is just personal experience, but combined with lack of evidence for a good amount of support I don't believe there's a sleeping libertarian mass anymore than I think there's a sleeping Green mass.

Lastly, I as an outsider I think parties in general are a joke and the LP trying to be more serious is hurting it. I'm fairly young for this forum and I've only been eligible to vote in 2 presidential elections (3 in November) and to my memory the LP has run a failed Republican both times. This creates the problem of not really distinguishing itself as a separate entity and was just the vote for Republicans unhappy with Romney or Trump. Comparatively the current champions of each party are a gameshow host known for bull****ing and a guy who can't remember what he said two minutes ago, and if that ain't clown **** than I don't know what is. IMO the libertarians would have more success in getting that 5% by running a bat**** entertainer than they would a "serious" candidate.

I hope none of this comes off as too harsh or mean spirited because that's not my intention.

Edited May 24, 2020 by KaineParker

[ComradeYellow]

You have some good points, and yes, it would take a theoretical "sleeping mass" help transform the legislative and executive branch by getting a 3rd Party in there.  Also, this 3rd Party would have to team up with one of the major parties to produce anything.  Libertarians would have to team up with Republicans and Greens would have to team up with Democrats, etc. etc.

It's not impossible, but like I said the rhetoric is so toxic right now that if a Greens were to be elected in any branch the American right would probably revolt 1860 style which would give us the moral high ground to enact transformational policies.

[Orogun01]

7 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

The LP has nominated Jo Jorgensen to be our Presidential nominee. I have nothing against her. She is very smart and well educated. MBA at SMU and PhD in Psychology at Clemson. She is a professor there when she is not on the LP executive committee. Yes, she is a party hack. The biggest problem is no one has ever heard of her. And that is not likely to change between now and November. 

Basically she was the best of bad choices. Jacob Hornberger is pretty much a terrible person that no one likes and this f-----g guy actually came in third:

 

The fact that this happened tells you just how lost the cause is. 

You need to understand that a large portions of DNC donations and the donors put a lot of money into sabotaging other parties. If the GOP has been infiltrated by Rhinos then you could safely assume that any party that gains momentum will be sabotaged. I pick on the DNC as it is the one I know there's evidence of wrong doing, AFAIK the GOP doesn't.

[Zoraptor]

The US really needs some form of proportional representation for the electoral system. Way harder (some impossible) to gerrymander and people can vote for who they like with a decent chance that their vote will 'count'. Wouldn't help much directly on the Presidential side at least at first, but it would certainly help give exposure for candidates who aren't irrationally angry septuagenarian sex pest dotards.

Of course proportional representation requires the turkeys to vote for an early christmas, which is fundamentally unlikely.

[Volourn]

GOP got stuck with Dhanald even though the GOP power brokers did not actually want him.

 

Dems  rigged their own votes and processes to get the result they wanted and then laughed and bragged about it while claiming they are pro democracy.

 

Yet, they wonder why 'Bernie Bros' and other dems didn't go out and rush vote for Hillary. Hillary lost not because of who voted for who but how many people on the left didn't bother to vote at all. They forced their choice on everybody else and that's what happened. It might even happen again. I mean their pushing a perverted racist onto the masses to fight a guy they hate supposedly because he is a perverted racist. LMAO

Edited May 24, 2020 by Volourn

[Malcador]

President Vermin Supreme does have a good ring to it.

[ComradeYellow]

40 minutes ago, Volourn said:

GOP got stuck with Dhanald even though the GOP power brokers did not actually want him.

 

Dems  rigged their own votes and processes to get the result they wanted and then laughed and bragged about it while claiming they are pro democracy.

 

Yet, they wonder why 'Bernie Bros' and other dems didn't go out and rush vote for Hillary. Hillary lost not because of who voted for who but how many people on the left didn't bother to vote at all. They forced their choice on everybody else and that's what happened. It might even happen again. I mean their pushing a perverted racist onto the masses to fight a guy they hate supposedly because he is a perverted racist. LMAO

 

GOP loves him now, he has near complete party unanimity, D.C. and minimalist white boy living in backwoods U.S.A alike.

Also, just like the LP, real leftists may have to accept another defeat and focus on getting that 5% vote in the Green Party, I will vote Green up and down the ticket.

Edited May 24, 2020 by ComradeMaster

[Guard Dog]

OK, I heard a good one today.

How many Republicans does it take to change a lightbulb?

None. Trump will just tell them it has been changed and they will all sit in the dark and applaud. 

[Gfted1]

Nah, were good. Working as intended. Just ask the board experts.

[Malcador]

https://gizmodo.com/leaked-senate-talking-points-say-internet-surveillance-1843612179

Have to admire the brass on some of the reasoning

"As an example, the FBI discovers a known foreign intelligence officer located in the United States taking pictures of the Hoover dam over the course of several days. Absent probable cause for a FISA warrant, and absent criminal investigative tools without evidence of a crime being committed, this amendment would preclude the FBI from requesting Business Records for the individual’s web browsing information to determine if the foreign intelligence officer visited a website on how to blow up dams. "

[Orogun01]

2 hours ago, Malcador said:

https://gizmodo.com/leaked-senate-talking-points-say-internet-surveillance-1843612179

Have to admire the brass on some of the reasoning

"As an example, the FBI discovers a known foreign intelligence officer located in the United States taking pictures of the Hoover dam over the course of several days. Absent probable cause for a FISA warrant, and absent criminal investigative tools without evidence of a crime being committed, this amendment would preclude the FBI from requesting Business Records for the individual’s web browsing information to determine if the foreign intelligence officer visited a website on how to blow up dams. "

Well, this is it folks. As soon as that law passes, I'm going to jail.

[ComradeYellow]

15 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

OK, I heard a good one today.

How many Republicans does it take to change a lightbulb?

None. Trump will just tell them it has been changed and they will all sit in the dark and applaud. 

 

[Lexx]

19 hours ago, Malcador said:

https://gizmodo.com/leaked-senate-talking-points-say-internet-surveillance-1843612179

Have to admire the brass on some of the reasoning

"As an example, the FBI discovers a known foreign intelligence officer located in the United States taking pictures of the Hoover dam over the course of several days. Absent probable cause for a FISA warrant, and absent criminal investigative tools without evidence of a crime being committed, this amendment would preclude the FBI from requesting Business Records for the individual’s web browsing information to determine if the foreign intelligence officer visited a website on how to blow up dams. "

Story twist: This dam explosion terrorist was a game designer on Fallout New Vegas, who was researching and collecting reference material.

[Malcador]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/minneapolis-police-george-floyd-fatal-arrest-officer-kneeling-neck/

Good news is the 4 cops are fired at least. 

[Volourn]

Another case of abuse of power and complete disregard of human life. Disgraceful. And, people will defend it.  

 

I've said it before, I'll save it again, the biggest issue with police is not racism; it's too much power and too much leeway.

 

Some basic 'wroingness' of modern policing:

 

1.  Cops can legally lie to you.

2.  Cops do not legally have to rescue you from dangerous situation.

3. The cops' savety comes before civilians which is a spit in the face of the job description.

4. the police  no longer 'work' for the populace. They were work (like always) for the gov't.  aka  'To Serve and Protect' is no longer a thing. More like to 'Bully and Intimidate'.

5. Police are armed like they are the army going into always hostile  terrain.

6. They have the legal right to murder anyone who refuses to cooperate them unless you meet a ridiculous high standard of wrong doing.

7. Like above,   police are held to a LOWER standard of behavior than the public is. WHAT THE HELL? It should be higher standard. Yet they demand 'respect'. LMAO

8. They are trained to FEAR everybody in every situation. 100lb women, little kids,  everyone are treated like they are more dangerous than a nuclear bomb.

9. You can't call the cops for help because they may end up killing you. And, it doesn't matter the colour of your skin or gender. It happens to anyone.

10. The good cops are dragged down by the bad cops, by the 'silly loyalty code' and by apologists who make excuses for every bad behavior the police commit.

 

SICKENING.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Volourn

[Orogun01]

2 hours ago, Malcador said:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/minneapolis-police-george-floyd-fatal-arrest-officer-kneeling-neck/

Good news is the 4 cops are fired at least. 

Quite frankly at least the guy that put the knee over should be tried for manslaughter, I guess the DA isn't ruining his/her relations with the PD. Ain't that some BS?.....y'all down with OPP?

[Guard Dog]

29 minutes ago, Volourn said:

Another case of abuse of power and complete disregard of human life. Disgraceful. And, people will defend it.  

 

I've said it before, I'll save it again, the biggest issue with police is not racism; it's too much power and too much leeway.

 

Some basic 'wroingness' of modern policing:

 

1.  Cops can legally lie to you.

2.  Cops do not legally have to rescue you from dangerous situation.

3. The cops' savety comes before civilians which is a spit in the face of the job description.

4. the police  no longer 'work' for the populace. They were work (like always) for the gov't.  aka  'To Serve and Protect' is no longer a thing. More like to 'Bully and Intimidate'.

5. Police are armed like they are the army going into always hostile  terrain.

6. They have the legal right to murder anyone who refuses to cooperate them unless you meet a ridiculous high standard of wrong doing.

7. Like above,   police are held to a LOWER standard of behavior than the public is. WHAT THE HELL? It should be higher standard. Yet they demand 'respect'. LMAO

8. They are trained to FEAR everybody in every situation. 100lb women, little kids,  everyone are treated like they are more dangerous than a nuclear bomb.

9. You can't call the cops for help because they may end up killing you. And, it doesn't matter the colour of your skin or gender. It happens to anyone.

10. The good cops are dragged down by the bad cops, by the 'silly loyalty code' and by apologists who make excuses for every bad behavior the police commit.

 

SICKENING.

One more to your list:

11. By and large they are ignorant of the laws they are supposed to be "enforcing"

[Guard Dog]

30 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

Quite frankly at least the guy that put the knee over should be tried for manslaughter, I guess the DA isn't ruining his/her relations with the PD. Ain't that some BS?.....y'all down with OPP?

That is coming. It's been turned over to the FBI and the State Police. 

[Skarpen]

8 hours ago, Volourn said:

Some basic 'wroingness' of modern policing:

 

1.  Cops can legally lie to you.

2.  Cops do not legally have to rescue you from dangerous situation.

3. The cops' savety comes before civilians which is a spit in the face of the job description.

4. the police  no longer 'work' for the populace. They were work (like always) for the gov't.  aka  'To Serve and Protect' is no longer a thing. More like to 'Bully and Intimidate'.

5. Police are armed like they are the army going into always hostile  terrain.

6. They have the legal right to murder anyone who refuses to cooperate them unless you meet a ridiculous high standard of wrong doing.

7. Like above,   police are held to a LOWER standard of behavior than the public is. WHAT THE HELL? It should be higher standard. Yet they demand 'respect'. LMAO

8. They are trained to FEAR everybody in every situation. 100lb women, little kids,  everyone are treated like they are more dangerous than a nuclear bomb.

9. You can't call the cops for help because they may end up killing you. And, it doesn't matter the colour of your skin or gender. It happens to anyone.

10. The good cops are dragged down by the bad cops, by the 'silly loyalty code' and by apologists who make excuses for every bad behavior the police commit.

How did this happen that police no longer is to "serve and protect"? This is antithetical to police force in a democratic society. Who let this happen?