Politics XXXIV (Politics never changes)

[Guard Dog]

Posting this here since we often discuss education in this thread:

[ComradeYellow]

Looks like Marx Karl was right again

[Hurlshort]

2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Posting this here since we often discuss education in this thread:

The last fact about Phillipe seems unnecessary though. I mean, it plays into this whole idea that there is some sort of competition between the two. Honestly I can't really say I know many people with degrees that think people without degrees are stupid. I'd actually say it's more likely that a person with a degree will look down on a person with a degree from a rival school than they are to look down on people who have a tradeskill education. For example, I look down on Stanford grads.

[ComradeYellow]

17 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

The last fact about Phillipe seems unnecessary though. I mean, it plays into this whole idea that there is some sort of competition between the two. Honestly I can't really say I know many people with degrees that think people without degrees are stupid. I'd actually say it's more likely that a person with a degree will look down on a person with a degree from a rival school than they are to look down on people who have a tradeskill education. For example, I look down on Stanford grads.

The Mainstream Media did a fantastic job playing into that narrative during the 2016 Trump campaign.  "If you support Trump you're a dumb dumb with no college degree".  I largely blame them for Trump winning, as they  are probably worse than he is.

[Hurlshort]

It's like you're writing from a script.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Hurlshot

[ComradeYellow]

13 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

It's like you're writing from a script.

Nice counter argument to the contents of my post.  Your college educatedness is showing!

[Volourn]

Remember, Hurlshot is the teacher who just admitted that instead of teaching his students stuff he instead confuses them and then comes to the net and laughs about it. You know, instead of figuring out a way to get them to understand what he is trying to teach. LMAO

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, Hurlshot said:

I'd actually say it's more likely that a person with a degree will look down on a person with a degree from a rival school than they are to look down on people who have a tradeskill education. For example, I look down on Stanford grads.

You can even literally just say the complete opposite, that those without degrees often look down upon those with it for being "liberal-educated" or "wasting 4 years of your life and thousands of dollars getting a worthless degree", etc. People (all of us!) tend to like looking down on each other either way you go - even if there's no logical reason to do so, we'll eventually come up with a rationale. Just one small measure of feeling self-important and better than others.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[Guard Dog]

1 hour ago, Hurlshot said:

The last fact about Phillipe seems unnecessary though. I mean, it plays into this whole idea that there is some sort of competition between the two. Honestly I can't really say I know many people with degrees that think people without degrees are stupid. I'd actually say it's more likely that a person with a degree will look down on a person with a degree from a rival school than they are to look down on people who have a tradeskill education. For example, I look down on Stanford grads.

Like most memes it's meant to be humorous with a grain of truth in it. But tradeskill is undervalued in this country these days and for the life of me I don't know why. I had to replace my home AC last year. That was damn near $5k and I know the unit costs $2650. HVAC guys never want for work because being hot sucks. 

Does your school system still have vocational ed? I can't remember it I ever asked you. Remember when I was installing WIFI in the schools in Dyer, Gibson, and Weakly Counties a few years ago? I was surprised to learn TN had all but dropped vocational classes from the curriculum.  I always wondered why.

[Guard Dog]

2 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

You can even literally just say the complete opposite, that those without degrees often look down upon those with it for being "liberal-educated" or "wasting 4 years of your life and thousands of dollars getting a worthless degree", etc. People (all of us!) tend to like looking down on each other either way you go - just one small measure of feeling self-important and better than others. Even if there's no logical reason to do so, we'll eventually come up with a rationale.

Some degrees ARE a waste of money. If there is not demand doe the skills they require. A Master in Art History might land you a job running a gallery or as an editor of an art magazine. But there is not an abundance of those opportunities. Before picking a major a kid really ought to investigate what career fields that education might apply to. And what the potential earnings are. Not that career decisions should be made entirely on money. Take Hurlshot for example. It takes a lot of education and drive to do the job he does. And despite how important the job is I think he knew going into it he will never get rich doing it. So what drives him must be passion and that is worthy of respect. Pursuing passion is never the wrong thing to do but it should also be a decision made knowing what your career prospects are. 

A college degree is like any other widget you can buy. It has an absolute and objective value. You should never pay more for a widget than what it's worth. The value of the widget might be increased if it's worth something to YOU for your plans and your life. Notre Dame offers an undergrad program in Theology. It costs $50k per year to attend Notre Dame not counting room and board. A graduate with a 4 year degree in Theology will be $200K in debt and the salary of a protestant minister is around $30k. It would be a terrible decision from an objective business sense but if being a pastor is your passion in might still be worth the cost to you. 

 

[Hurlshort]

2 hours ago, Volourn said:

Remember, Hurlshot is the teacher who just admitted that instead of teaching his students stuff he instead confuses them and then comes to the net and laughs about it. You know, instead of figuring out a way to get them to understand what he is trying to teach. LMAO

Wow, I share a professional shortcoming here, and you use it to attack me? Low blow! Plus you barely even post anymore. It's like you don't care about our friendship.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Hurlshot

[Hurlshort]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

Like most memes it's meant to be humorous with a grain of truth in it. But tradeskill is undervalued in this country these days and for the life of me I don't know why. I had to replace my home AC last year. That was damn near $5k and I know the unit costs $2650. HVAC guys never want for work because being hot sucks. 

Does your school system still have vocational ed? I can't remember it I ever asked you. Remember when I was installing WIFI in the schools in Dyer, Gibson, and Weakly Counties a few years ago? I was surprised to learn TN had all but dropped vocational classes from the curriculum.  I always wondered why.

Vocational ed is cut in most schools. Partly expense, partly dumb political focus on keeping up with the Jones in STEAM.

[Skazz]

6 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

For example, I look down on Stanford grads.

As a non-American, out of genuine and contextless curiosity: what's wrong with Stanford?

[Hurlshort]

1 hour ago, Skazz said:

As a non-American, out of genuine and contextless curiosity: what's wrong with Stanford?

It's just the worst.

I'm sure it's fine, but it gets all the attention in the Bay Area and Silicon Valley. I graduated from a nearby state school. Some would probably call it envy, but we did beat them in football 3 out of the 4 years I was there. Plus my cousin went there and he is insufferable.

[213374U]

I think the problem with degrees being a waste of money is that education, much like healthcare, has completely and utterly become a business in the US. Sadly, the fad seems to be catching on this side of the pond as well. It's myopic to try to monetize and extract profits from everything, including that which should be an investment in its own future by society as a whole. Another casualty of the free markets I suppose, because if something -let's say an educated population- can't be assigned a dollar value, it's apparently not worth preserving.

I hope all these die hard free market believers are doing great in their math degrees, because it won't be long before that's about the only one that will guarantee a decent paycheck.

[Bartimaeus]

"Anybody that needs a test gets a test; they're there, they have the tests, and the tests are beautiful," Trump told reporters during the visit, touting the administration's response as more than 270 cases of the virus were confirmed across more than two dozen states as of Friday. "The tests are all perfect, like the letter was perfect, the transcription was perfect, right?" he added later. "This was not as perfect as that, but pretty good."

"The tests are beautiful"

-Trump on Coronavirus

[Skazz]

10 hours ago, 213374U said:

I hope all these die hard free market believers are doing great in their math degrees, because it won't be long before that's about the only one that will guarantee a decent paycheck.

I have two non-engineering degrees, almost zero hope for my own future and, while I know and accept that you are undoubtedly 100% correct, I still find this extremely depressing.

Oh, well. To trash compactor I go!

 

[ktchong]

Now, some potentially good news.

Someone who had attended CPAC — which Trump and Pence had also attended along with tens or even hundreds of thousands of conservatives and Republicans — has been tested positive for COVID 19:

Link to news article.

 

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by ktchong

[Skarpen]

1 hour ago, Skazz said:

I have two non-engineering degrees, almost zero hope for my own future and, while I know and accept that you are undoubtedly 100% correct, I still find this extremely depressing.

Oh, well. To trash compactor I go!

 

You don't have to get engineering degree. Just something useful that can get you a job and will allow you to pay the loan if you took one. 

[Guard Dog]

1 hour ago, ktchong said:

Now, some potentially good news.

Someone who had attended CPAC — which Trump and Pence had also attended along with tens or even hundreds of thousands of conservatives and Republicans — has been tested positive for COVID 19:

Link to news article.

 

 

So if their politics are not your politics it's a good thing they get sick and maybe die? Wow, and to think I thought my respect for you had hit rock bottom already. Turns out rock bottom has a basement. 

[Guard Dog]

13 hours ago, 213374U said:

I think the problem with degrees being a waste of money is that education, much like healthcare, has completely and utterly become a business in the US. Sadly, the fad seems to be catching on this side of the pond as well. It's myopic to try to monetize and extract profits from everything, including that which should be an investment in its own future by society as a whole. Another casualty of the free markets I suppose, because if something -let's say an educated population- can't be assigned a dollar value, it's apparently not worth preserving.

I hope all these die hard free market believers are doing great in their math degrees, because it won't be long before that's about the only one that will guarantee a decent paycheck.

It always was a business. Not every degree imparts a skill society finds useful. The skills of a Chemical Engineer are more valuable than those of someone who studied Ornamental Basket Weaving. That does not mean there isn't value in the latter but the former is going to make a lot more money. It's something folks ought to consider when planning their education. If they don't... caveat emptor. 

[Elerond]

5 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

It always was a business. Not every degree imparts a skill society finds useful. The skills of a Chemical Engineer are more valuable than those of someone who studied Ornamental Basket Weaving. That does not mean there isn't value in the latter but the former is going to make a lot more money. It's something folks ought to consider when planning their education. If they don't... caveat emptor. 

Not taking in consideration that you used that as hypothetical example that is not meant to be realistic comparison. It not skills of Chemical Engineer that are valuable but their knowledge. If you measure only value of skills then expert ornamental basket weaver wins chemical engineer every day . 

I think it would be better to make bit more every day choices that people picking their careers face, like for example comparing careers and salaries of Chemical Engineers and Registered Nurses, as both have high demand on job market and both careers demand high level knowledge and skill, but later one pays less and have less benefits but costs for the degree is about same (which may most likely be reason why quite lot hospitals and clinics are facing issues to find enough qualified nurses).

[Hurlshort]

I'd say it's a bit lacking in empathy to expect every 18 year old fresh out of High School to have a clear plan of where they want their education to take them professionally. It is also pretty harsh to say they should have the financial IQ to avoid getting into trouble with all these student loan programs. These are major moneymaking institutions that take advantage of youth and inexperience. There should be reasonable limitations on how much they can profit off fleecing the youth.

[Guard Dog]

Not a workable idea but the minimum age for college admission should be 21 IMO. 18 is the legal adult age but the world is more complicated than it used to be. And an 18 year old today will have led a much more sheltered life than an 18 year old 100 years ago. 

It used to be a joke among my colleagues a few jobs ago when we described a person as someone whose education has exceeded their intelligence. I once quipped it was like a kid with a gun. They know it's powerful and valuable but have no idea what to do with it and the outcome will likely be bad. Well in this case we are turning out graduates with education but no life experience. The former is a poor companion without the latter.

When I started college for real I was 25 years old. I'd already served four years in the military, owned a business, been married and divorced. I thought I would be at a disadvantage compared to my peers at MDCC & FAU. I was only able to take night classes and only complete half the coursework per semester compared to full time students. I realized quickly that the opposite was true. I was older, more experienced, and more disciplined in my study habits and work ethic. Things like that come with age and experience. It might serve some people well to forego college for a few years and pursue experience like the military, or Peace Corps, or something else along those lines. The more you learn about the real world, and the quicker you do it, the less likely it is to devour you. 

[Skarpen]

8 hours ago, Elerond said:

Not taking in consideration that you used that as hypothetical example that is not meant to be realistic comparison. It not skills of Chemical Engineer that are valuable but their knowledge. If you measure only value of skills then expert ornamental basket weaver wins chemical engineer every day . 

I think it would be better to make bit more every day choices that people picking their careers face, like for example comparing careers and salaries of Chemical Engineers and Registered Nurses, as both have high demand on job market and both careers demand high level knowledge and skill, but later one pays less and have less benefits but costs for the degree is about same (which may most likely be reason why quite lot hospitals and clinics are facing issues to find enough qualified nurses).

Which in turn will shift the financial benefit from chemical engineers to nurses as there will be not enough nurses and abundance of chemical engineers. Supply and demand also impacts jobs. So it's hard sometimes to predict job market few years ahead when you make the decision of choosing a career. In Poland we now have very high number of higher educated people and not enough skilled workers. Due to big shift from learning a manual job to pursuing higher education and because of emigration of skilled workers after joining the EU. Now a welder earns more than engineer, becaue I can throw a stone in random direction and have a high chance of hitting an engineer and finding a good welder that stayed in country is a big task. 

So it's not only knowledge amd skill but availability of them on the market.

6 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

I'd say it's a bit lacking in empathy to expect every 18 year old fresh out of High School to have a clear plan of where they want their education to take them professionally. It is also pretty harsh to say they should have the financial IQ to avoid getting into trouble with all these student loan programs. These are major moneymaking institutions that take advantage of youth and inexperience. There should be reasonable limitations on how much they can profit off fleecing the youth.

But no matter what age you are going to introduce young adults to the adult world there will always be more experienced people waiting for them at the door. I think it's not age limits or other restrictions they need but financial and common sense education. 

Also some laws should be in place for financial institutions to not put people in spirals of debt. Don't know about US but we have a few laws that protect from those.