Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Owlcat Games' next isometric Pathfinder RPG

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Yall may be, I'm going to wait at least a few months until I try it so hopefully it will be stable.

[Achilles]

1 minute ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Yall may be, I'm going to wait at least a few months until I try it so hopefully it will be stable.

I'm preloading now with the intent to keep a close eye on discord for the next week or so. Since my bread-and-butter character has been crusader/angel and that appears to be one of the "tent pole" combos, I'm hoping that path sufficiently polished to avoid most of the game-breaky stuff.

With that said, if I need to wait for a good gameplay experience, then wait I shall.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

5 minutes ago, Achilles said:

I'm preloading now with the intent to keep a close eye on discord for the next week or so. Since my bread-and-butter character has been crusader/angel and that appears to be one of the "tent pole" combos, I'm hoping that path sufficiently polished to avoid most of the game-breaky stuff.

With that said, if I need to wait for a good gameplay experience, then wait I shall.

The Cleric archetype?

I hope it's not broken but I'm not going to take a chance. Too much frustration in having a long playthrough implode because of bugs.

[Achilles]

22 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

The Cleric archetype?

I hope it's not broken but I'm not going to take a chance. Too much frustration in having a long playthrough implode because of bugs.

That's the one!

In my last playthrough I found that the merged spellbook caused some minor hiccups with UI flare for mythic spells and caused the player to lose access to a mid-level domain spell (because spell levels are accelerated and crusaders only get one domain). I reported the bug and called in out in discord. It may have been resolved in Beta 3, but I haven't checked.

That's really the only bug I found with that class/path combo

[kanisatha]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

So, judging by what I've read here and elsewhere, we're heading for a veritable bugfest in a few days.

That was the experience for many from the first game, but Owlcat have actively sought to learn from that experience and try to do better this time. So automatically assuming it will be a buggy launch is a questionable assumption. And besides, even in the first game, they addressed the most pressing bug issues very quickly, within just a few weeks, where the devs voluntarily pulled 18-hour days to get it done. If there's one thing to be said for Owlcat, they're super-committed to their customers.

[Achilles]

10 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

That was the experience for many from the first game, but Owlcat have actively sought to learn from that experience and try to do better this time. So automatically assuming it will be a buggy launch is a questionable assumption. And besides, even in the first game, they addressed the most pressing bug issues very quickly, within just a few weeks, where the devs voluntarily pulled 18-hour days to get it done. If there's one thing to be said for Owlcat, they're super-committed to their customers.

Respectfully, the state of the betas makes it a reasonable assumption. The bugs got worse with each release, not better. Things that worked in earlier versions stopped working in later ones.

As for their dedication to "crushin' dem bugs" quickly, it is indeed both noteworthy and admirable. It's also sloppy dev work. I remember a lot of hotfixes that were released to fix minor things that ended up breaking major things...obviously because nothing was regression tested before being fired out. Maybe that will be different this time, however (again) nothing in 1000 900 hours of pre-release play makes me think that's a slam-dunk reasonable assumption.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Achilles
Correction

[Sarex]

1 hour ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Yall may be, I'm going to wait at least a few months until I try it so hopefully it will be stable.

I think a year is a safe bet...If not the complete edition. Let the mods mature, if there is a need to remove some...unwanted parts of the game....

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

53 minutes ago, Achilles said:

That's the one!

In my last playthrough I found that the merged spellbook caused some minor hiccups with UI flare for mythic spells and caused the player to lose access to a mid-level domain spell (because spell levels are accelerated and crusaders only get one domain). I reported the bug and called in out in discord. It may have been resolved in Beta 3, but I haven't checked.

That's really the only bug I found with that class/path combo

Does it have diminished spellcasting like in PnP? Imo the archetypes with diminished spellcasting never really got stuff good enough to justify it, I'm particularly thinking of the Kensai who sucks at low levels.

9 minutes ago, Sarex said:

I think a year is a safe bet...If not the complete edition. Let the mods mature, if there is a need to remove some...unwanted parts of the game....

Probably a safe bet.

The Kingmaker mod that took out kingdom management is essential for me. Unfortunately I don't think you can mod out romances.....or mod in every npc being a horny bisexual that isn't in to your character so you can be forever alone as a dragon or swarm of locusts. Oh well, if Kingmaker mods track at least we'll get Occultists.

[kanisatha]

 

[Achilles]

24 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Does it have diminished spellcasting like in PnP? Imo the archetypes with diminished spellcasting never really got stuff good enough to justify it, I'm particularly thinking of the Kensai who sucks at low levels.

It does, but you don't miss the extra spell slot. The merged spellbook more than makes up for any deficit you think you might be incurring by taking the archetype. The idea is that you're using a limited number of spells to buff the crap out of yourself (and your party later on) and then playing as a striker. To be honest, it's not difficult to feel as though you have wasted spell slots, even with the hit (and especially once many of the effects become semi-permanent with the right selection of items and mythic abilities)

My 2 cents anyway

Edited August 30, 2021 by Achilles
missing word

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 minute ago, Achilles said:

It does, but you don't miss the extra spell slot. The merged spellbook more than makes up for deficit you think you might be incurring by taking the archetype. The idea is that you're using a limited number of spells to buff the crap out of yourself (and your party later on) and then playing as a striker. To be honest, it's not difficult to feel as though you have wasted spell slots, even with the hit (and especially once many of the effects become semi-permanent with the right selection of items and mythic abilities)

My 2 cents anyway

Ah, so the merged spellbook gives you bonus slots that make up for diminished spellcasting. I guess between that and high Wisdom you could make up for it, but it still seems a high price to pay for 5(?) bonus feats. I guess the Warpriest would be jealous though.

[Achilles]

1 minute ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Ah, so the merged spellbook gives you bonus slots that make up for diminished spellcasting. I guess between that and high Wisdom you could make up for it, but it still seems a high price to pay for 5(?) bonus feats. I guess the Warpriest would be jealous though.

It doesn't.

Let me give an example: the cleric has access to a low level spell that offers one type of protection for a limited amount of time. Angel spellbook (merged) gives you access to a spell that offers 2 types of protection for a longer period of time. At the next spell level that spell extends to your party. At the level after that it includes 3 types of protection. At max spell level you have two spells that protect your entire party from almost every damage type (and because you picked the right feats and abilities, they have a 24 hour duration). Granted you could do the same thing with a vanilla cleric, but you're giving up access to a handful of feats that make you a better striker in exchange for a bunch of spell slots that sit empty in your spell book because you have 2 spells that do the work of 10.

As for warpriest, they can't merge spell books and get access to critical spells too late (for my taste anyway). I say this as someone who was instantly smitten by the class concept and spent many hours trying to make it work in the alpha and beta. Vanilla cleric gets access to X spell at level Y. Merged spellbook cleric gets access to it at Y-3. Warpriest gets it at Y+3. Which isn't to say that warpriest isn't any good, only that it doesn't cast as well as a cleric and only hits a little harder than an optimized crusader cleric. Not a good trade off to me.

Lastly, you could boost Wisdom for more spell slots, but you're probably going to want to invest those attribute points in strength. The angel does get access to a some pretty cool offensive spells, but they are powerful enough on their own that juicing WIS it probably a poor investment.

[InsaneCommander]

I never had so much doubt about which character to play. If I ever have the time, I'll try a Paladin/Angel (or Dragon), a Necromancer/Lich and the Trickster. But I'd love to play as most of the Mythic paths. And I'll definitely need to play as a Kitsune, the portraits are amazing.

1 hour ago, Sarex said:

I think a year is a safe bet...If not the complete edition. Let the mods mature, if there is a need to remove some...unwanted parts of the game....

Omg, looking at the comments in the launch trailer, there will be a lot of frustration in a feel days...

[ShadySands]

I'll probably go either Oracle/Angel or Kineticist/Azata for my first game

[Achilles]

Cross post:

I have two extra keys (Steam, GOG, or Epic) for Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous (premium digital download edition).

First come, first served

All gone. Sorry everyone

Edited August 30, 2021 by Achilles

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

42 minutes ago, Achilles said:

It doesn't.

Let me give an example: the cleric has access to a low level spell that offers one type of protection for a limited amount of time. Angel spellbook (merged) gives you access to a spell that offers 2 types of protection for a longer period of time. At the next spell level that spell extends to your party. At the level after that it includes 3 types of protection. At max spell level you have two spells that protect your entire party from almost every damage type (and because you picked the right feats and abilities, they have a 24 hour duration). Granted you could do the same thing with a vanilla cleric, but you're giving up access to a handful of feats that make you a better striker in exchange for a bunch of spell slots that sit empty in your spell book because you have 2 spells that do the work of 10.

As for warpriest, they can't merge spell books and get access to critical spells too late (for my taste anyway). I say this as someone who was instantly smitten by the class concept and spent many hours trying to make it work in the alpha and beta. Vanilla cleric gets access to X spell at level Y. Merged spellbook cleric gets access to it at Y-3. Warpriest gets it at Y+3. Which isn't to say that warpriest isn't any good, only that it doesn't cast as well as a cleric and only hits a little harder than an optimized crusader cleric. Not a good trade off to me.

Lastly, you could boost Wisdom for more spell slots, but you're probably going to want to invest those attribute points in strength. The angel does get access to a some pretty cool offensive spells, but they are powerful enough on their own that juicing WIS it probably a poor investment.

Ok, so spellbook merge not only gives you early access to spells but better spells in the same level (and more spell slots?). So dropping a dqomain and a spell slot per level for combat feats is better than it was in Kingmaker or PnP.

Why can't Warpriest merge spellbooks? Is that only an option for 9th level casters or an Angel exclusive issue?

I'd have to review the Cleric spell list, but between Eagle Soul and the Divine enlarge I think you can probably net enough strength bonuses to make increasing the spell DC more attractive than +hit and damage.

33 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

I never had so much doubt about which character to play. If I ever have the time, I'll try a Paladin/Angel (or Dragon), a Necromancer/Lich and the Trickster. But I'd love to play as most of the Mythic paths. And I'll definitely need to play as a Kitsune, the portraits are amazing.

I'm going with Magus/Legend, Inquisitor/Demon or Swarm, and Sorcerer or Orcale/Dragon or Angel.

[Sarex]

I'm going to play what I always play, a Paladin.

[Achilles]

Going to do these in turn.

2 hours ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Ok, so spellbook merge not only gives you early access to spells but better spells in the same level (and more spell slots?). So dropping a dqomain and a spell slot per level for combat feats is better than it was in Kingmaker or PnP.

Merging spellbook increases your caster level by 3. Vanilla cleric gets access to 9th level spells at level 17. Merged spellbook cleric/angel gets access to 9th level spells at level 14. Max caster level for a merged spellbook class is 30 so if a spell does 1d6 damage per CL, then max level angel does 30d180. I'll come back to this in a moment.

Added by edit: and yes, the mythic spell book includes powerful spells that aren't part of any standard spellbook (though some of them are suped-up versions of standard spells). This goes for all the mythic spellbooks, not just the angel spellbook that I've been using as an example.

2 hours ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Why can't Warpriest merge spellbooks? Is that only an option for 9th level casters or an Angel exclusive issue?

Only full casters can merge spell books. For divine casters (angel spellbook) that means clerics and oracles can have merged spellbooks (IIRC). All other classes have to manage spellbooks separately (suck )

2 hours ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

I'd have to review the Cleric spell list, but between Eagle Soul and the Divine enlarge I think you can probably net enough strength bonuses to make increasing the spell DC more attractive than +hit and damage.

Ultimately it's up to you. Again, the particular build I've been playing lends itself to buffing the character/party and then striking. Eagle soul and divine enlarge do give nice STR bonuses, but if you're using those, then you're going in for a hit, not an offensive spell.

If you want to blast things to kingdom come and leave your weapon in its sheathe, then consider @ShadySands oracle/angel suggestion above. Or going arcane caster/lich.

FWIW, that boosted spell level means that it's possible (with a rod and some mythics feats) to cast Righteous Might and Eagle Soul as 24 hour duration spells

All this to say, YRMV, but if you're going this route, you aren't going to be concerning yourself with spell DC

Edited August 30, 2021 by Achilles
Correction (thanks, Gromnir)

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Ok then, I think I've got it for the most part. Correct me if I'm wrong.

1. Only full casters can merge spell lists, this applies to all Mythic Paths.

2. To merge spellbooks, you need to be the same caster type as the Path. So no Cleric/Lich or Wizard/Angel merges.

3. Mythic Path spell lists include unique spells, some of which are better versions of common spells in the same level.

4. Merged spellbooks gives you early access to spells by 3 levels, so you have the same spell slots as a 10th level cleric at 7th level when merged with Angel.

5. You add mythic tier to caster level, so a Cleric level 7/ Angel 3rd tier would have a caster level of 10.

Assuming all of that is true, I think the Warpriest is going to get overshadowed as a warrior priest by the Crusader Cleric or Battle Oracle (especially if Warsighted archetype is in), outside of early game or specific builds. Magus will fare better as a gish (compared to Wizard/EK with Lich) because Spell Combat and Spellstrike can't really be replicated with feats or flat bonuses like Sacred Weapon or Fervor.

Well this game will be a theorycrafting event.

[Achilles]

27 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Ok then, I think I've got it for the most part. Correct me if I'm wrong.

1. Only full casters can merge spell lists, this applies to all Mythic Paths.

2. To merge spellbooks, you need to be the same caster type as the Path. So no Cleric/Lich or Wizard/Angel merges.

3. Mythic Path spell lists include unique spells, some of which are better versions of common spells in the same level.

4. Merged spellbooks gives you early access to spells by 3 levels, so you have the same spell slots as a 10th level cleric at 7th level when merged with Angel.

5. You add mythic tier to caster level, so a Cleric level 7/ Angel 3rd tier would have a caster level of 10.

Assuming all of that is true, I think the Warpriest is going to get overshadowed as a warrior priest by the Crusader Cleric or Battle Oracle (especially if Warsighted archetype is in), outside of early game or specific builds. Magus will fare better as a gish (compared to Wizard/EK with Lich) because Spell Combat and Spellstrike can't really be replicated with feats or flat bonuses like Sacred Weapon or Fervor.

Well this game will be a theorycrafting event.

1. Yes

2. Yes. Divine casters can merge their spell books with divine mythic spellbooks, arcane casters with arcane mythic spellbooks, and so on. A full divine caster can take an arcane mythic path, but the spellbooks won't merge. A non-caster class will just get the spellbook of whichever mythic path they select (i.e. fighter would get the angel spellbook, if taking that path and would only have the one spellbook to manage)

3. Yes, though not limited to same level

4. Mostly correct. Selecting an aligned mythic path as a full casters (i.e. angel as a cleric) allows you to stack caster levels as you progress through the game. Your example is correct.

5. Mythic levels don't quite work like that. I would clarify but I would probably be venturing, at length, into heavy spoilers, so...

FWIW, Warpriests are incredibly powerful at high levels SPOILER:

Spoiler

In fact most notable bosses and mini-bosses are warpriests

...but they take forever to ramp up. As a result, they are overshadowed by other classes, as you say.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Achilles

[ShadySands]

Here are a bunch of mythic spells if you're interest

I think it's also important to note that currently in the beta there are alignment restrictions* on the mythic paths. Each path also used to have it's own casting stat that may not align with your own casting stat but I'm not sure if that's still in or being kept or not because I've uninstalled the beta without testing it and used a mod whenever it was an issue before that. Pretty sure it only changes DCs and not slots though so if you don't cast offensive spells then it probably won't matter.

*You can be any alignment when you start the path but at some point you'll have a come to Butthead moment

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by ShadySands

[Keyrock]

Having not played the previous game, is this one of those games where you have to min-max the bejesus out of your character, or can you make a character however you want and still get by?

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Achilles said:

Only full casters can merge spell books. For divine casters (angel spellbook) that means clerics, oracles, druid, and shaman can have merged spellbooks (IIRC). All other classes have to manage spellbooks separately (suck )

only clerics and oracles. druids and shamans were not invited to the party.

obvious question: why is the spellbook merge feature of the angel mythic path limited to oracle and cleric?

never seen an explanation from owlcat.

lich spellbook merging works similar to angel but is the arcane caster version and is only benefitting sorcerer and wizard.

HA! Good Fun!

[InsaneCommander]

Actually, I think I'll leave my Paladin pt for when I know the game and can get a happy ending. But I want to do my first pt as a good character, so I'll probably choose Skald. The Trickster I'll leave for a CN character and the Necromancer/Lich for an evil pt. If I ever have the time to pt that many times. lol

[Achilles]

55 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

only clerics and oracles. druids and shamans were not invited to the party.

Thanks for the correction. I've update my post to reflect the info.

1 hour ago, Keyrock said:

Having not played the previous game, is this one of those games where you have to min-max the bejesus out of your character, or can you make a character however you want and still get by?

I would say that you need to be fairly smart about your party builds if you want to avoid biting off a lot more than you can chew in some of the optional encounters, even on normal difficulty. If you want to play anything above normal, then yes.

Be warned that it's easy to wander into almost-unwinnable s**tstorms in the latter half of the game (assuming chapters 5 and 6 are on par with 4). Or at least it was in the beta.

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Achilles