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Outer Worlds, a mediocre Fallout

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4 hours ago, Daidre said:

My main point that TWO is boring and sporting some Tumblr-style writing comparing to Obsidian's own games - it is lacking next to PoE, Tyranny and NWN 2 original campaign. And completely embarrassing after Mask of Betrayer, KOTOR 2 and Alpha Protocol.

Are you sure, you are not mistaking “tone” with “quality”?

TWO has been lighthearted so far but it’s not a “fault”. It might be not within your taste but it’s not bad by default. I am not deep into the game, but so far writing has been funny, coherent, clever and the point. World seems to be well thought out, characters are well defined and consistent.

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I don't want to give the impression I hate mass Effect or bioware games in general. I don't, my issue was that rpgs are moving more towards that style. Opting for a more defined character and dumbing down RPG elements. Doesn't mean those games are bad but I do prefer to make most of the choices for what kind of role I play in a roleplaying game.  

I did kind of hate Fallout 4 though, it was just so boring to me. 

People criticising the wringing in this thread still seem very averse to making any kind of specific criticism. I feel like maybe their problem is to do with certain kinds of female characters that they dislike for political reasons but I try not to assume that kind of thing of people. If that is the case though, the entire game is not just one character that you personally dislike. 

Also I agree that despite Kotor 2 being one of my favourite games ever the early levels of the game are really quite bad. 

Edited by Mikeymoonshine
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The only main criticism I have atm for TOW is that it seems like every single mission is a damn fetch quest. 

Fetch quests are boring.

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If the OP hasn't finished the game yet (seemed like they were just getting into it), how can they know whether or not their choices will have consequences?

I'm only a few hours in, so I have no clue yet what ramifications my decisions so far will have down the line.  Seems kind of strange to criticize that aspect before finishing the game.

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"Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque

"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation)

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12 hours ago, Daidre said:

Well, Deadfire is game where it became painfully obvious that Obsidian team's combined writing talent went downhill, but good system was still keeping it afloat.

TOW writing is like somebody cloned Xoti and contaminated whole game with her. At least the part I have seen.

The writing in PoE 2 is significantly better than the systems in PoE 2. Some of the mechanics in that game are just *trash*. Penetration is a *terrible* mechanic that horribly biases all combat--it's the god stat basically.

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no waifus? oh poor op, your sexual fantasies will not be fulfilled in this video game.

 

methinks op doth protest too much.

Edited by floredon
inflammatory (unintentional)
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2 hours ago, Zafar1981 said:

Well if you guys think TOW is a mediocre wait till Bethesda release Starfield. 

Much closer comparison would be Cyberpunk 2077 and I do not think there is any possible universe where it would work in TOW's favor.

 

And no, I am not a CD Project fan and yet to play Witcher 2&3.

Edited by Daidre

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21 minutes ago, Daidre said:

Much closer comparison would be Cyberpunk 2077 and I do not think there is any possible universe where it would work in TOW's favor.

 

And no, I am not a CD Project fan and yet to play Witcher 2&3.

I think you missed that person's point. They were saying Bethesda games are mediocre these days. Cyberpunk is completely irrelevant to that point. 

Though if we are comparing. Obsidian didn't include third person because it wasn't in the budget to have two perspectives, CDPR didn't because of their "artistic vision". They have even removed all the cut scenes they made in third person and replaced them with first person ones apparently. So just like Outer World's we won't be seeing the character we made outside of a menu. I hope that game gets the amount of flack this one is getting for that. 

Disclaimer: I don't hate cdpr and will probably still get cyberpunk. 

Edited by Mikeymoonshine
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Bizarrely all RPG’s are the same. All Looter Shooters are the same  All Survival games are the game. 
 

I like TOW. I like the map sizes and can see Supernova not being a headache to play through. The companions don’t get in my way, I’m yet to find a bug or a glitch or have anything infuriate me. And this game was technically free with game pass. I have thousands of pounds worth of games which still have bugs in them, game breaking mechanics and dev teams who just don’t give a damn. I can’t compare this to anything I’ve played before because it’s flawless so far and the dev team should be proud of themselves because this is 2019 and this is the standard those who have gotten too big for their boots should be reaching as minimum.
I’m considering paying for the game but I need to find out if the money goes direct to Obsidian etc or MS.  
 

 

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Comparing this to Bethesda's Fallout 4 aka Skyrim with guns is a bit silly. They are not in the same league. Bethesda suck at writing characters and storylines. They rehash the same things over and over again. They try to gun for cheap effects in order to get some emotional response from the player but you have to be a pretty easy target for these to work on you. The one thing F4 has for it is the decent shooting which is a welcome change after playing F3 and FNV (I love FNV for the story but the shooting is still horrendous). 

The Outer Worlds is a clever game with what looks like layers upon layers of depth. I could relate to complaints having to do with the outlandish saturation or the fact that the music gets very repetitive (don't get me wrong it's good but either the game doesn't have enough tracks or there is a bug that makes the same tracks loop all the time). 

Complaining about not romancing NPCs (which is something that usually ends up feeling cheap and tacked on or just ruins the writing) seems a bit funny to me especially considering how much the NPCs will react to situations and environments and discuss things with your character. 

Simply put, there is no other game like this one. I had high hopes for Greedfall but it did fall short unfortunately (not by much but still somehow a bit of a disappointment but maybe I expected too much from it). At least a game like Greedfall tries to come up with an original setting which is more than can be said about F4 and it's mish mash of Fallout lore with some things that were directly lifted from scifi movies left and right. In this respect TOW feels very fresh and tends to prove that you can inform a game with relevance by tackling difficult issues like capitalism in a complex society uprooted in an alien star system. The depiction of corporatism pushed to extremes keeps reminding me of Paranoia (the roleplaying game). That's an interesting dystopia that is showcased and the way it impacts regular NPCs is something that keeps things interesting and relevant (and what a more mature and complex Mass Effect Andromeda could have explored).

Last but not least, I've played through the first location and so far I haven't experienced any bug. People tend to blame Obsidian for releasing buggy games so it's good to be able to tell them that TOW is not a buggy game.  

Edited by gloomseeker
typo
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My point is that Fallout 4/76 being bad games does not automatically make TOW better. Obsidian was always known for a flawed but interesting games. TOW is direct opposite:

1) Very safe and unimaginative writing. Every NPC is talking-head joke dispenser at steady rate of 5 smartass comment/minute.

2) Tons of fetch quests, more and more as the game progress. 

3) All conflicts boil down to corporation vs just one another rebellious group. It is Skyrim level of faction nuance.

4) Enemy variety is bad, generic marauders everywhere and outnumber peaceful population 3 to 1.

5) Perks are boring, skill system is bare-bones and gun/melee skills detract from game play more than add to it. People completed the game with 20 in gun skill by shooting everyone in the face. I oneshotted whole starting location on Hard after finding plasma rifle with level 2 char. 

 

But it is polished, pretty, bug-free, easy to get into and just plain easy. Generic user-friendly RPG/FPS with Whedon-style writing and Borderlands/Bioshock looks for a people who hate gaas, mtx and Fallout 76.

Edited by Daidre
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46 minutes ago, Daidre said:

(snip)

Safe and unimaginative how? You not liking the jokes does not mean the writing is "safe and unimaginative" it means you don't like the joke? Safe compared to what? Unimaginative compared to what? Where did the writers go wrong? How would you have done it? 

Most quests in video games can be considered "fetch quests" but there are plenty of quests that do not involve going and getting an item and almost every quest has some kind of plot, choices, tells a story ect. 

No the factions do not just boil down corporations vs rebels, but sure in a game that centres around that conflict most of the relevant factions are invested in that conflict somehow. 

Enemy Veriety could be better I agree, what RPG with big open areas is not filled with marauders or bandits or something like that though? At least this game does give you a reason for why there are so many. 

There could be some more interesting perks like New Vegas, that's a legitimate criticism. Calling the skill system "bare bones" is nonsensical though. A gun is still a gun, you can still use it with low gun skills. I do think there could be a whole lot of tweaking to the balance though the game is a bit too easy and supernova difficulty is more just annoying that anything. 

Seems like your issue with the writing is that you don't personally like the writing style. That's not the same as it being bad writing. Bad writing is plots that don't make any sense, characters that are one dimensional ect ect. 

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24 minutes ago, Mikeymoonshine said:

Safe and unimaginative how? You not liking the jokes does not mean the writing is "safe and unimaginative" it means you don't like the joke? Safe compared to what? Unimaginative compared to what? Where did the writers go wrong? How would you have done it? 

I comparing it to recent Disco Elysium. Game that is not afraid to make jokes about politics, racism and police cruelty. Hmm, if you think about it a bit, TOW's "Corporate Dystopia" looks exactly like 100% Communism with it's slogans, posters, monopolies and brain-washed people. I do not know whether it is coincidence, ignorance or brilliance at work here.

DE also has a lot of "whacky" NPC, but never goes into joke-barrage TOW does in every dialogue. They sound like a real people, not like posts/comments in social media written with only purpose to gather "likes".

Edited by Daidre

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1 hour ago, Daidre said:

I comparing it to recent Disco Elysium. Game that is not afraid to make jokes about politics, racism and police cruelty. Hmm, if you think about it a bit, TOW's "Corporate Dystopia" looks exactly like 100% Communism with it's slogans, posters, monopolies and brain-washed people. I do not know whether it is coincidence, ignorance or brilliance at work here.

DE also has a lot of "whacky" NPC, but never goes into joke-barrage TOW does in every dialogue. They sound a like real people, not like posts/comments in social media written with only purpose to gather "likes".

Don't ever play Fallout 2 if you can't stand TOW because of its jokes. 

I haven't played Disco Elysium so I won't comment on the rest. Looks to me that they are not meant to be the same type of games though. From what I understand Disco doesn't feature fighting and plays a lot more like a visual novel or an adventure game whereas TOW plays like a shooter/looter. 

I do reiterate though. Don't ever play Fallout 2 under any circumstances. If you can't handle TOW then all the pop culture references, direct movie quotes and the jokes in Fallout 2 will make you feel miserable. 

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I played Fallouts back in high school. I prefer Arcanum in the terms of setting, but fairly enjoyed both of them nonetheless.

There is something really really wrong in the claim that TOW somewhere near on the shelf. Fallouts are many things, but they were never boring in attempts to be smart, funny or cute. And I don't remember them. Abusing dots. After every couple. Of words. 

Edited by Daidre

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I thought a lot of Deadfire's attempts at humour fell completely flat, hoping TOW will be better. Got the £1 gamepass thing what people were talking about, saves me 49 quid. Just have to wait around 50 thousand hours for it to download.


nowt

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42 minutes ago, Daidre said:

I comparing it to recent Disco Elysium. Game that is not afraid to make jokes about politics, racism and police cruelty. Hmm, if you think about it a bit, TOW's "Corporate Dystopia" looks exactly like 100% Communism with it's slogans, posters, monopolies and brain-washed people. I do not know whether it is coincidence, ignorance or brilliance at work here.

DE also has a lot of "whacky" NPC, but never goes into joke-barrage TOW does in every dialogue. They sound like a real people, not like posts/comments in social media written with only purpose to gather "likes".

Maybe the writers of the outer worlds know what communism is and that's what is at work here? 

 

I think the humour is ok, it's not like the game is a riot but it's funny in places. Though this claim that every character is coming out with one liners all the time is just not true. Most of the characters are not "comedy characters". I felt POE could have actually had more comedy to make it less bleak, especially the first one even though I think overall the first is a better game than the second

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I dont think comparing the outer worlds to fallout is really apt at all, whether positively or negatively. these games have such drastically different design it's like comparing apples to oranges. the outer worlds is designed with a heavy focus on dialogue. the game presents you with a smaller cast of characters, but pretty much every one of them has purpose, and an interesting narrative. fallout gives you an incredibly wide set of people in comparison, and so instead of entering a town and having some really long and interesting conversations with several townsfolk, you'll have much shorter and maybe less interesting conversations, but there'll be a ton of unique and interesting people to speak to. it depends on whether you prefer something more narrative focused or something with more of a lean towards world building. personally I enjoy both. sometimes I like getting attached to the fewer but more complex characters in obsidian games; other times I quite like getting lost in a town enjoying the fun personalities of the many characters in bethesda games.

outer worlds good though, 9/10

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1 hour ago, Daidre said:

I comparing it to recent Disco Elysium. Game that is not afraid to make jokes about politics, racism and police cruelty. Hmm, if you think about it a bit, TOW's "Corporate Dystopia" looks exactly like 100% Communism with it's slogans, posters, monopolies and brain-washed people. I do not know whether it is coincidence, ignorance or brilliance at work here.

I did play Disco. I see little connection between each other: on Riffs on Planescape, and other on Fallouts. I mean Disco isn’t funny. It has humour, but It’s an existential, sarcastic story of a broken down human finding himself in a bleak world. OW is a fun SF romp with stabs at the corporations. The focus and tone is completely different. Is Planescape better then Baldur’s Gate? Do you blame star wars for not being a psychological drama after watching Taxi Driver?

Edited by Wormerine
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23 minutes ago, Wormerine said:

I did play Disco. I see little connection between each other: on Riffs on Planescape, and other on Fallouts. I mean Disco isn’t funny. It has humour, but It’s an existential, sarcastic story of a broken down human finding himself in a bleak world. OW is a fun SF romp with stabs at the corporations. The focus and tone is completely different. Is Planescape better then Baldur’s Gate? Do you blame star wars for not being a psychological drama after watching Taxi Driver?

So maybe this is why game does not work for me. I had expected some layer of drama under comedy and something more than lighthearted pew-pew boom-boom corporation is bad theme park, something with nuance, insight and in-depth characterization, like an older Obsidian games.

You just proved my doubts that there is nothing more to find in TWO if your sense of humor is not on par to truly appreciate the writing.

 

Edited by Daidre

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I'm just imagining if it had gone the way you are saying it should have. We would probably be listening to a bunch of people complaining about how it was leftist propaganda and "I don't want politics in my video games" ect ect. 

I don't think it's lacking in layers just because it's light hearted anyway. It makes all kinds of criticisms of capitalism. A lot of the things the board have done may seem silly but they are real things that real cooperations actually do. 

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20 minutes ago, Daidre said:

something more than lighthearted pew-pew boom-boom corporation is bad theme park, something with nuance, insight and in-depth characterization, like an older Obsidian games.

Old writing squad is gone from obsidian, at this point it’s unrealistic to expect new writing squad to deliver as much as the old one did.

 

if you are a fan of old obsidian titles, then your only hope is to look for projects run by Sawyer and ignore the writing and play for the systems Sawyer is so good at crafting - that would be deadfire 😂

Edited by Blunderboss

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13 minutes ago, Blunderboss said:

if you are a fan of old obsidian titles, then your only hope is to look for projects run by Sawyer and ignore the writing and play for the systems Sawyer is so good at crafting - that would be deadfire

My only hope is that he had not completely burned out on PoE 1&2 and will return to making CRPGs after his PnP dream project. Dialogues I can click through.

Edited by Daidre

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