Deadfire Polishing Poll pt2

[Phenomenum]

50 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

depends on the class

Ah, i missed it) Still multiclass receives double resources. Don't know what to do with...

[Vonbek]

2 hours ago, Phenomenum said:

Ah, i missed it) Still multiclass receives double resources. Don't know what to do with...

What about defining a ration?

caster x

martial y

single class gets 2 ( ration ( random for caster ))

multi gets one allocation of each class, so ShadowDancer would get 1 Mort ration plus 1 Guile Ration for example. BattleMage one random SL, One discipline Ration. Cipher would obviously need to have a value worked out to make it worthwhile but not "here, now cast Time Parasite again"

 

If you set Ration to say 2 of class spenders for example? 

 

Fighter would be able to throw up Barrage again, but not anything close to an Empower Refresh. Monk would be able to extend a little but again nothing stupid. Wizard could end up with 2 more level 9s, or be sitting on two casts of Missiles

[Boeroer]

Multiclass characters always have more resources in total but less per class. SC chars have a higher max pool and of course higher Power Level (= more bang for the buck). I wouldn't do anything.

[ocelotter]

Just for fun, I tried implementing the time limit on PreventDeath effects, and it worked pretty much as expected. Here's the code:

Spoiler

{
	"GameDataObjects": [
		{
			"$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
            "DebugName": "Lay_on_Hands_Shieldbearers_SE_PreventDeath",
            "ID": "7595cec7-23e5-4ce2-9f21-a94dcffe12ca",
			"Components": [
				{
					"$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
					"IntervalRateID": "9ad89927-55e1-4385-b5ad-a420beec5d7c",
					"TriggerAdjustment": {
                        "TriggerOnEvent": "OnInterval",
                        "TriggerOffEvent": "None",
                        "ValidateWithAttackFilter": "false",
                        "ParamValue": 0,
                        "ValueAdjustment": 0,
                        "DurationAdjustment": 0,
                        "ResetTriggerOnEffectTimeout": "false",
                        "MaxTriggerCount": 2,
                        "IgnoreMaxTriggerCount": "false",
                        "RemoveEffectAtMax": "true",
                        "ChanceToTrigger": 1
                    }
				}
			]
		},
		{
			"$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
            "DebugName": "Greater_Lay_on_Hands_Shieldbearers_SE_PreventDeath",
            "ID": "bd9f0106-5ad1-48bc-b924-809b42fd7ad3",
			"Components": [
				{
					"$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
					"IntervalRateID": "9ad89927-55e1-4385-b5ad-a420beec5d7c",
					"TriggerAdjustment": {
                        "TriggerOnEvent": "OnInterval",
                        "TriggerOffEvent": "None",
                        "ValidateWithAttackFilter": "false",
                        "ParamValue": 0,
                        "ValueAdjustment": 0,
                        "DurationAdjustment": 0,
                        "ResetTriggerOnEffectTimeout": "false",
                        "MaxTriggerCount": 2,
                        "IgnoreMaxTriggerCount": "false",
                        "RemoveEffectAtMax": "true",
                        "ChanceToTrigger": 1
                    }
				}
			]
		},
		{
			"$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
            "DebugName": "Hands_Of_Light_Shieldbearers_SE_PreventDeath",
            "ID": "2dedab4b-e536-4ef3-b7ae-c68c94e72f3a",
			"Components": [
				{
					"$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
					"IntervalRateID": "9ad89927-55e1-4385-b5ad-a420beec5d7c",
					"TriggerAdjustment": {
                        "TriggerOnEvent": "OnInterval",
                        "TriggerOffEvent": "None",
                        "ValidateWithAttackFilter": "false",
                        "ParamValue": 0,
                        "ValueAdjustment": 0,
                        "DurationAdjustment": 0,
                        "ResetTriggerOnEffectTimeout": "false",
                        "MaxTriggerCount": 2,
                        "IgnoreMaxTriggerCount": "false",
                        "RemoveEffectAtMax": "true",
                        "ChanceToTrigger": 1
                    }
				}
			]
		},
		{
			"$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
            "DebugName": "Barring_Deaths_Door_SE_PreventDeath",
            "ID": "bf16d60a-34db-4159-b4ce-82f3513c1200",
			"Components": [
				{
					"$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
					"IntervalRateID": "9ad89927-55e1-4385-b5ad-a420beec5d7c",
					"TriggerAdjustment": {
                        "TriggerOnEvent": "OnInterval",
                        "TriggerOffEvent": "None",
                        "ValidateWithAttackFilter": "false",
                        "ParamValue": 0,
                        "ValueAdjustment": 0,
                        "DurationAdjustment": 0,
                        "ResetTriggerOnEffectTimeout": "false",
                        "MaxTriggerCount": 2,
                        "IgnoreMaxTriggerCount": "false",
                        "RemoveEffectAtMax": "true",
                        "ChanceToTrigger": 1
                    }
				}
			]
		},
		{
			"$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
            "DebugName": "Resurrection_SE_PreventDeath",
            "ID": "3ea0a01d-4c1a-4ce9-bfb8-e10573313c8e",
			"Components": [
				{
					"$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
					"IntervalRateID": "9ad89927-55e1-4385-b5ad-a420beec5d7c",
					"TriggerAdjustment": {
                        "TriggerOnEvent": "OnInterval",
                        "TriggerOffEvent": "None",
                        "ValidateWithAttackFilter": "false",
                        "ParamValue": 0,
                        "ValueAdjustment": 0,
                        "DurationAdjustment": 0,
                        "ResetTriggerOnEffectTimeout": "false",
                        "MaxTriggerCount": 3,
                        "IgnoreMaxTriggerCount": "false",
                        "RemoveEffectAtMax": "true",
                        "ChanceToTrigger": 1
                    }
				}
			]
		},
		{
			"$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
            "DebugName": "Potion_of_the_final_stand_SE_CannotDie",
            "ID": "2bad7806-b5bc-4e90-8d21-795e4add7ab1",
			"Components": [
				{
					"$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
					"IntervalRateID": "9ad89927-55e1-4385-b5ad-a420beec5d7c",
					"TriggerAdjustment": {
                        "TriggerOnEvent": "OnInterval",
                        "TriggerOffEvent": "None",
                        "ValidateWithAttackFilter": "false",
                        "ParamValue": 0,
                        "ValueAdjustment": 0,
                        "DurationAdjustment": 0,
                        "ResetTriggerOnEffectTimeout": "false",
                        "MaxTriggerCount": 2,
                        "IgnoreMaxTriggerCount": "false",
                        "RemoveEffectAtMax": "true",
                        "ChanceToTrigger": 1
                    }
				}
			]
		}
	]
}

 

(Not sure why the indentation is all messed up here, oh well)

I put a fairly generous 30 second cap on all of the effects except Resurrection, to which I gave a 60 second cap. That way, non-abusive SoT, Wall of Draining, and Intelligence still benefit the effects. The only problem is, I'm not sure how to fix the UI display for this; it's probably not relevant unless you're really trying to push it, but it is a bit weird to just have an effect drop off with time still remaining on the buff.

Edited August 10, 2019 by ocelotter

[Elric Galad]

23 hours ago, Powerotti said:

I think brilliant triggering effect simillar to blood sacrifice 1/6sec is the best and the simplest way for casters. You can use it with sot few times if you are lucky, but not abuse it forever. 

One time fixed resources gain can be overpowered with tactican/caster. Flank enemies, then let them flank you, then spam weapon switch for kapana taga/something, to get brilliant->flanked->brilliant->flanked chain. 

I'm not sure if ascended cipher with time parasite can reaply brilliant to refresh resources gain if target is inspired, but that would be bad thing.

This is an excellent point and one of the reason why changing that much brillant sounds weird to me. I fear similar side effects.

Minor stuff : Blood sacrifice works with only 3 categories for spell tiers (1-3, 4-6, 7-9), so there would be 1/3 chance of restoring SoT, which would be consistent enough with 2 priests.

So restoring a completely random spell level with 1/n chance where n is the number of spell level would be the most straightforward way to change Brillant.

 

Upsides :

- encourage using various spell levels which I find interesting,

- prevent SoT abuse,

- change nothing for martial classes, which are fine with Brillant IMHO.

[ocelotter]

Quote

One time fixed resources gain can be overpowered with tactican/caster. Flank enemies, then let them flank you, then spam weapon switch for kapana taga/something, to get brilliant->flanked->brilliant->flanked chain. 

I haven't tested this specific interaction, but since most (all?) status effects tick immediately upon receipt of the effect, this should already work this way. So the aforementioned change would not really alter this interaction.

2 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

This is an excellent point and one of the reason why changing that much brillant sounds weird to me. I fear similar side effects.

Minor stuff : Blood sacrifice works with only 3 categories for spell tiers (1-3, 4-6, 7-9), so there would be 1/3 chance of restoring SoT, which would be consistent enough with 2 priests.

So restoring a completely random spell level with 1/n chance where n is the number of spell level would be the most straightforward way to change Brillant.

 

Upsides :

- encourage using various spell levels which I find interesting,

- prevent SoT abuse,

- change nothing for martial classes, which are fine with Brillant IMHO.

Blood Sacrifice randomly selects to restore a tier 1-3, 1-6, or 1-9 spell each time you use it. If all you have used is a level 6 spell (SoT), then this form of Brilliant would have a 2/3 chance to restore it.

Edit: giving Brilliant a chance to restore a completely random spell level is a good idea, but I'm not sure how feasible it is. The AddResource StatusEffectType that all of these spells use restores a missing resource up to a certain level. Blood Sacrifice circumvents this a bit by having three different status effects, but it still isn't 1-3/4-6/7-9, it's 1-3/1-6/1-9. If you made 9 brackets, SoT would still be restored four out of nine times. So another implementation would need to be found.

Edited August 11, 2019 by ocelotter

[MaxQuest]

On 8/8/2019 at 3:22 PM, ocelotter said:

I thought of another idea for "adjusting" Brilliant to be a bit less abusable, if there's any interest in such a thing. Instead of restoring one of each class resource once every six seconds, make it restore one (or two) of each class resource immediately upon receiving the buff, but none thereafter. Additionally, let the buff give +2-3 PL instead of just +1--as I believe Boeroer suggested before--so extending its duration still feels powerful.

With CP changes to Shroud of the Phantasm and Rakhan Field Boots it's already not that easy to abuse it in solo games. 

And in full-party, what there is besides Ancient Memory and Brilliant Tactician? 

----

Personally I do somewhat like the ongoing regeneration of resources from Brilliant (especially because of some overly-high hp enemies present in game). What looks meh to me is:

1). the possible abuse with Salvation of Time.

2). the gain inequality between different classes.  (+10 focus for cipher being the biggest offender; followed by +1 martial point compared to 1 spell usage).

 

Regarding p1, I would prefer to see the same approach that CDProject did with Superior White Raffard's Decoction and Delayed Recovery. The potion was granting 2s invulnerability, and the talent was making the effect indefinite (while toxicity was high enough). So what they did in Witcher 3 (once they finally noticed that) was make Potion ignore the talent altogether. And in case of Pillars that would be SoT not increasing Brilliant duration.

Unfortunately I don't know how to implement that via a mod... So what about such a limitation?:  "gain 1 resource immediately and additionally regain class resources every 6s while not near death or bloodied". Or another one: after 18s of Brilliant get a 60s debuff that prevents resource generation from Brilliant (like "Recently Bandaged" from WoW)

 

And regarding p2... I would increase focus generation for ciphers from +10 to at least +20. A wizard can get restored anything from rank 1 spell usage to rank 9. On average that would be rank 5. And how much does a cipher's rank 5 power cost?

 

On 8/8/2019 at 10:09 PM, Vonbek said:

@Boeroer / @MaxQuest, quick question.

Is there an guide to creating, or easy way to create, custom subclasses?

 

Am not aware of such a guide. But would take a look at existing mods on nexus and start/replicate from there: https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/categories/18/

 

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by MaxQuest

[Phenomenum]

37 minutes ago, MaxQuest said:

And in case of Pillars that would be SoT not increasing Brilliant duration.

Easy enough. We can add special keyword to Brilliant status effect and then add this KW as exclusion (KeyworLogic: Not) in SoT.

40 minutes ago, MaxQuest said:

And regarding p2... I would increase focus generation for ciphers from +10 to at least +20. A wizard can get restored anything from rank 1 spell usage to rank 9. On average that would be rank 5. And how much does a cipher's rank 5 power cost?

Don't sure if i know how to do this...

[MaxQuest]

21 minutes ago, Phenomenum said:

Easy enough. We can add special keyword to Brilliant status effect and then add this KW as exclusion (KeyworLogic: Not) in SoT.

Oh, it's great if possible)

As for +20 focus... the workaround could be: trigger resource replenish twice if it is a cipher.

[Phenomenum]

Ok. I'll try to do this tomorrow.

[Elric Galad]

Gain for Cipher isn't a big concern since it's unlikely to put Brillant on a Cipher anyway (since Ancestor's isn't self target). Also, too much gain would result in Infinite Brillant casting with 2 ciphers while fuelling their possible multiclass with Infinite ressources. Still not a big concern but worths mentionning IMHO.

 

SoT not applying to Brillant would help, but even without it I still find Brillant OP on casters. With a single cast of Brillant one Can fuel 3+ Greater Maelstrom which feels a bit too much. I don't have a better suggestion than yours though... Except combining your idea with a random effect such as Blood Mage's ?

Edited August 11, 2019 by Elric Galad

[Vonbek]

19 hours ago, MaxQuest said:

Am not aware of such a guide. But would take a look at existing mods on nexus and start/replicate from there: https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/categories/18/

I'll pull a couple to have a look. My main issue is never having modded POE at all, I've noticed that a lot of the hook calls/anchors seem to be Hex Codes which is why I was wondering of there was a class resource guide as most of the hard bit if this is like anything I've done for Torchlight or WoW will be making sure the hooks are correct and not calling something either nulled or able to cause a livelock or misfire.

 

Icon/Anim is easy enough to check and somethign that is QoL pass level, it's calling an empty proc or even worse a class error proc I want to avoid even at the start whenever possible; especially since I think I'll need to call either SP or Cipher checks for the way I'm thinking of doing Wounds on it ( either Damage or Crit ).

 

Is there enough activity in the actual Modding Forum to make it worth forking this into a fresh thread there?

[Phenomenum]

17 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Gain for Cipher isn't a big concern

Cipher isn't a big concern, because he can regenerate resources trough dealing damage. Monk can regenerate resources trough receiving damage. Other classes have a very limited ways of resources regeneration. Exept Blood Mage.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Phenomenum

[Vonbek]

3 hours ago, Phenomenum said:

Monk can regenerate resources trough receiving damage.

Isn't the regen from Brilliant for Monks Mort? Wounds is their renewable, and Mort is handy to have as fights drag... Unless I'm missing something that I should really be using?

[Elric Galad]

I've always found that Single Class Martials lack a bit of ressource pool, especially Rangers and Rogues since don't get Wounds/1 rage wondershouts/zeal on downed summon. Fighters had toughened Fury improved with the Community patch si I think they're ok too. 

What would you think of improving their ressources a bit through something like a PL8 passive giving +2 ressources ?

[Powerotti]

Chance to regain bond when killing enemy with critical hit (not friendly summon or ally)

Chance to regain guile when killing enemy that is hurt or better (with single blow)

[Boeroer]

Regaining resources on kill or crit is always kind of unneccessary because you are already on the winning path and it works best against low defense mobs. Against single tough enemies it's quite useless. Unfortunately those are the encounters that take the longest and where you would need the additional resources. That's why ciphers usually suck at generating focus against such enemies (except Psions).

Monks (except Shattered Pillas) and Chanters (except partly Skalds) have that unusual solution that the resource generation is not connected to their offensive performance in battle.

And that's good. Of course for Rogues it kind of makes sense that they would regain resources via crits or killing since they are good at that. But if we look at the name of their resource (Guile) it would even make more sense for them to regain it if they did something "guileful". Like landing an attack from stealth and invisibility, applying a DoT or affliction and so on. For example a passive that gives a 25% chance to regain Guile when an affliction is successfully applied. But this has the risk that AoE appliances of afflictions would break it. So one has to think about it thoroughly. But you get the idea. Rogues can already regain Guile via Gambit by the way but you can't get back more than you spend.

For Fighters I would have wished for a regain of discipline if they (for example) shrugged off some damage via conversion of hit quality - e.g. when a Fighter gets crit but it gets downscaled to a hit. Maybe also when they upscale their hit quality. THis would also make some of the poor performing abilites (graze to hit) more appealing.

All that +x resources on crit and kill is kind of boring - but it seems to be the only thing the designers could come up with for those classes that don't have a resource replenishment from the start.

Rangers should reain Bond from doing things that strenghen the bond between Ranger and Animal Companion. Like when they work together successfully. This could be that the Ranger profits from a Takedown Combo boost with one of his attacks (regaining that 1 Bond for Takedown Combo) or if the Animal Companion hits with Predtor's Sense which the Ranger set up with one if his DoTs. A passive that gives a chance for regaining Bond If the Ranger heals or revives the Companion. If an enemy gets attacked by both the Ranger and AC while the enemy is Marked for the Hunt... stuff like that.

Just emphasize the sort of resource and "theme" the class has.

Monks have the wounds (and mortification) mechanic because suffering is their whole business.

Chanters collect phrases because they sing chants.

Now Rogues should regain some Guile because they do underhanded stuff.

Rangers should regain Bond by actually bonding with their AC in some way.

Fighters should regain Discipline by pulling themselves together and such.

With Paladins (losing allies) it fits quite well I think. That's a nice touch and also works quite well as soon as you employ summons. With party members only it would be not enough Zeal. I personally would exclude summons but make the Zeal gain a lot higher. But it's ok as it is. 

    

Edited August 17, 2019 by Boeroer

[Powerotti]

Yes, on kill effects are useless against one big enemy, but you have full resources pool to spend on him. As for group od weaker foes it's not unneccessary, becouse it works like kind of revard for playing more agressively. You can be more lavish on spending resources and not "save them for better times". 

I like cooperation with animal companion idea, so maybe adding another condition is a way: chance to regain bond when killing enemy with crit if he is threatened by animal companion

[Powerotti]

As for rogue it's not that easy to take 50%hp with one hit and requires backstab and deathblows in most cases, so attacks from stealth are welcome. Stabbing someone in the back couts as guile deed, i think

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, Powerotti said:

As for rogue it's not that easy to take 50%hp with one hit and requires backstab and deathblows in most cases, so attacks from stealth are welcome. Stabbing someone in the back couts as guile deed, i think

But this mechanic even more favors killing weak mobs for regaining resources. Killing weak mobs is easy. You don't even need resources for that. It's the prolonged fights against a tough foes (dragons, megabosses etc.) where you need to regain resources. And with such mechanics you can't (if there are no weak ads). As I said: the main reason why ciphers stink in boss fights (with high defenses) is their focus mechanic - which is very good against enemies that can be hit easily. I wouldn't want to repeat that with Rogues. Actually it would be cool if Rogues could regain Guile by luring enemies into traps (and seals - amongst other things). Would make those nearly useless traps quite useful.

 

[Powerotti]

Traps idea is nice, but how exactly should it work? Every character can set one trap, but why rogue should benefit from others effort? Just stay invisible in place, do nothing and get guile? If he could regen resources only from his own traps it's one time per fight - not a big adventage. Maybe if he could set more traps before fight and then maneuver enemies on field to get cought? Or set traps during fight when he is invisible and there's no enemies at some distance? 

Strike from stealth and run to lure enemy into trap could be quite a good fun if only traps wouldn't be so paltry. 

[Boeroer]

Well it wouldn't be of any use if they led enemies into traps right at the start of the encounter when they still have full resources, right? So, possibly a weird mechanic...

Anyway just a random idea about a "guileful" thing to do - it would need additional means to get back Guile of course. If you could set a trap during encounter while invisible that would make things a little more interesting I guess. Nothing that I would want to mod into the game though.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Boeroer

[Wotcha]

19 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Well it wouldn't be of any use if they led enemies into traps right at the start of the encounter when they still have full resources, right? So, possibly a weird mechanic...

Anyway just a random idea about a "guileful" thing to do - it would need additional means to get back Guile of course. If you could set a trap during encounter while invisible that would make things a little more interesting I guess. Nothing that I would want to mod into the game though.

It probably cost you some Guile to use whatever ability made you invisible in the first place, so whatever resource recovery would have to overcome that cost as well as be worth more than the opportunity cost of the autoattacks you would have otherwise been getting instead of faffing about “being guileful”. Any mechanic that requires you to take your eye off the ball and do something other than focus firing down each kill target in turn, is a mechanic that somehow has to be better than JUST DOING THAT, by enough margin to make it worth the hassle.

A not entirely terrible idea might be a passive that recovered 1 Guile per X damage inflicted by weapon attacks that received the benefit of Sneak Attack, along the lines of Shattered Pillar.

A similar ability for Ranger would be 1 Bond per X damage from weapon attacks against a target your AC is engaged with.

[Boeroer]

"faffing about"... Why would you say that?

I merely stated my opinion about resource regain via crits and kills and wanted to underline that it would be nice if a mechanic that gives you back your resource named "Guile", "Discipline", "Zeal" or whatever could somehow connect mechanic to the theme of that resource pool and class. Besides that I just threw in some random ideas.

Hence my idea that a fighter might gain discipline from conversions. That would happen automatically and on the fly. And it wouldn't need any killing and crits-only which are already plentiful and which I don't really connect with Discipline.

You could have talked about that example. Or the one where I said that causing an affliction could give the Rogue back Guile (10% chance or whatever - sounds easy to implement). That would be more in line with what you said about "keeping the eye on the ball".

I did merely brainstorm some stuff so naturally not everything is refined. You picked the one example with the traps (which would only be an addition of course - not the only way a Rogue might get back Guile) that doesn't meet your taste. But it was just a quick idea because traps are pretty meh and it would give them some meaning.

Imagine you tactically set up a trap before the encounter, you then lure an enemy who is giving you trouble over that trap (or you placed it between front line and backline to surprise rushers) and get back 5 Guile when it triggers (and hits). That would fit the Rogue class/theme and could be very helpful. It would be like storing away 5 Guile per encounter as backup for later in the fight. It would cost nothing but a trap and maybe an ability point for a passive. I still think it's a nice complementary idea for the Rogue class - but of course I might be the only one. 

I'm totally in favor of a simple and "eyes on the ball" approach - but it would be nice for me if it also meets the spirit of the class. It is at least a Role Playing Game. It would also be nice if the mechanic wasn't too complicated in order to be able to work with a mod. 

I would also like if some random brainstormed ideas were discussed constructively without disparaging them - as long as they are brought forward in a decent manner. If that was not the case I apologize.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Boeroer

[Powerotti]

I like getting discipline back when hit roll is downed by a tier. Fighter already have discipline restore ability, but its fits better a barbarian (instead of blood surge). Getting crit is rather infuriating, and barbarian can also use retaliation when critted. But it may cause every single class build must have this two skills. Maybe reverse reverse mentioned fighter mechanic as rage is kind of opposite for discipline? Get resource when enemy hit roll is upgrade by tier. Unfortunately it doesn't happens often and it's totally independent of character build, you can't increase chance by no means. 

Paladin have two skills that restore zeal, one on kill, and one when ally gets down. Divine retribution is abusable with summons and too costly when you exchange teammate for 2 zeal, and then, if you wants to revive him, you must pay 3 zeal.