Politics: The Final Frontier

[Gfted1]

@Hurlshot: Oh you rascal! Im on the side of zero borders. But just in case you aren't aware, theres an entire federal level organization designed and tasked with allowing in a set number of immigrants per year. I know, crazy right? Theres absolutely not a single reason for this policy to exist and yet these brave souls partake the journey, knowing deep in there hearts that only pain and suffering awaits, but its still better that the ****hole they are coming from. Its inspiring and somebody should make a movie. Im also annoyed by traffic laws but that's a whole nother discussion and I don't want things to get confusing.

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Hurlshot said:

Eh, not worth it.

no, it ain't. the position gifted takes is nonsensical but appealing to the fringe. after all, no matter how poor detainees is treated, if they keep making hundred and thousand mile treks to get to the US, then obviously their treatment must be better than where they came from, yes? is silly and ridiculous, but has appeal to the extreme nativist 'cause embracing such a wacky viewpoint means there is no minimum legal standard or notion o' decency to which the US must adhere. in fact, the goal is to find the breaking point for immigrants-- find conditions and circumstances so appalling that immigrants stop coming. after all, as we now know, the goal o' child separations were an attempt to find such a breaking point.

even the government lawyers is embarrassed when they gotta make these arguments.

syllogism: bad enough conditions means immigrants stop coming and then nobody suffers, but if people keep coming, then conditions ain't genuine bad. is circular-stoopid, but has become oft repeated by the fringe... and this administration.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Gromnir

[Gfted1]

Its a damn shame that coyotes face fines and imprisonment for doing gods work. smh.

[Chilloutman]

Some people obviously never been in 'harsh conditions'. Its not the same as when your hotel room does not have mini bar you know?

Edited August 15, 2019 by Chilloutman

[Gromnir]

would be entertaining to watch chill chastise judge atsushi wallace tashima 'bout harsh conditions in internment camps.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Skarpen]

12 hours ago, Pidesco said:

https://oversight.house.gov/sites/democrats.oversight.house.gov/files/2019-07-2019. Immigrant Child Separations- Staff Report.pdf

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/07/the-inhumane-conditions-at-migrant-detention-camps.html

https://www.vox.com/2018/6/11/17443198/children-immigrant-families-separated-parents

http://srcd.org/sites/default/files/documents/the_science_is_clear.pdf

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/08/children-immigration-court/567490/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/what-separation-from-parents-does-to-children-the-effect-is-catastrophic/2018/06/18/c00c30ec-732c-11e8-805c-4b67019fcfe4_story.html

Seems legit. And of course the separation only affects the immigrants children. When citizen goes to jail and his child is separated from him it's all ok. 

But ok lets say no separation. What is the solution, we have two options:

a) Kids are arested with the parents.

b) Immigrants with kids are not detaines at all ever.

[Skarpen]

 

6 hours ago, Gromnir said:

would be entertaining to watch chill chastise judge atsushi wallace tashima 'bout harsh conditions in internment camps.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Because somehow the conditions in todays facilities corelates with conditions of WW2 internment camps?

[Hurlshort]

8 hours ago, Skarpen said:

 

Because somehow the conditions in todays facilities corelates with conditions of WW2 internment camps?

Bingo. I suppose you can argue the Japanese internment camps were better because they didn't separate families, but I'd say they are both tragic and terrible parts of US History. 

[Gfted1]

GOOD MORNING VIETNAM!

So lets see whats up today. Trumps wants to buy Greenland (probably to protect the reptoids) and the selfish Danes wont let it go.

Id also like to circle back and see if our crack resident legal scholars have any wisdom into why coyotes suffer a disproportionate punishment to the crime. Weve already established that: "illegal" doesn't really mean illegal and "illegal" immigration is no different from crossing the street outside of a crosswalk or perhaps speeding +1 to +9 mph, so why do they hammer the coyotes? I picture it going down like this:

Coyote: "ay carumba, border patrol is behind us!"

BP: *pulls over car*

coyote: *sweating profusely*

bp: "Alright, everyone from the passenger seat on back...welcome to America"

coyote: "whaaa?"

bp: "Not you, youre going to the stoney lonesome."

coyote: "nooooo, I will become permanently brain damaged by any incarceration"

bp: "sucker"

That just seems plain unfair.

[Gorth]

Looks like the UK got fed up with keeping Iranian oil tankers hostage and let it depart Gibraltar. Mostly of interest because Trump has recently tried bullying the Australia government into joining the war against  Iran that he (and the Saudis) wants so badly. I wonder if he wont try to mimic the Prussians who got fed up with the Austrians (not to be confused with Australians, thank you very much) as they kept outmaneuvering Prussia in the game of diplomacy and just went screw it, lets cut to the chase and declare war against Austria anyway, casus belli be damned.

 

[Gromnir]

5 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

 

Id also like to circle back and see if our crack resident legal scholars have any wisdom into why coyotes suffer a disproportionate punishment to the crime.

smuggling people across the border is a crime and violates the immigration and nationality act. Congress passed a law, and the President signed and the Court has upheld the Constitutionality.

you genuine need a review o' how this works?

fines for violation is considerable and prison terms is up to 20 years if multiple undocumented persons is knowing being transported across the border at locations other than designated checkpoints. is two relevant  code sections with only major difference being if smuggling took place at designated checkpoints. oh, and if an undocumented person dies as a result o' transport, prison for the smuggler may become life.

so, gifted now knows enough so he can go out and pressure his Congressman to change laws? maybe he gets enough citizens to pressure their Congressmen regarding the manifest unfairness faced by human smugglers to get laws changed? 

am not gonna hold breath waiting.

but perhaps you wanna do reverse and make the immigrants actions criminal? that would be more fair and equitable considering the poor treatment the coyotes is receiving? criminal trial for current and backlogged immigration cases? all +850,000? yeah, that is the change we should be demanding.

however, you are right 'bout one thing, we should get more use o' the following:

duh.

which brings us to skarp's typical blunt comprehension fail... a fail that admitted started earlier with chill comprehension fail. the detainees is not being arrested pursuant to a suspected criminal infraction. duh. in the US we do not separate parents and children when a person is served a parking ticket. doing so would be ludicrous and am not thinking needs be further discussed. that being said, the Courts is aware o' the reality o' the situation at the border and the difficulties o' detaining large numbers o' persons w/o even certainty o' their identities and countries o' origin. is a logistical nightmare to process and adequate detain people in the current situation, which is why child separations has been ok'd when is necessary, but such separations need be for no longer than absolute required. again, these ain't suspected criminals who is being detained.

child separations did happen under previous administrations, but such were limited and not part o' a general policy. we previous mentioned at least one child separation event which happened during obama's administration, and the government defense o' the separation were cringe-worthy indeed, so is plenty o' blame for everybody. nevertheless, discover the wh purposeful made child separation a policy to discourage immigration? well, that is what caused the brouhaha regarding child separations.

and to be blunt, am thinking you would look like a world class idiot if you went before judge atsushi wallace tashima and told him, based on his exhortation regarding soap, toothbrushes and blankets for minors, he had "obviously" never had to endure "harsh conditions." yeah, his ww2 experience provided the judge with experience regarding detainment camp conditions. is the kinda first-hand experience very few o' us could claim. nevertheless, chill calls out one o' the few judges with such experience? and you agree with him?  

HA!

but again, this is a blunt comprehension fail and strawman to boot. judge tashima were addressing "safe and sanitary" requirements o' the flores settlement. harsh conditions experience were complete irrelevant in the present situation. 

...

already explained this previous, and given blunt instrument am dealing with, am as optimistic now as hurl were earlier when he edited his post in recognition o' a presumptive fail. nevertheless, we endure.

the flores settlement, whether you like or not, is controlling law regarding what is standard for government insofar as the care o' minor detainees. flores, as is often the case with such directives, is light on specific guidance. "safe and sanitary." in a recent case a fed judge determined that, at a minimum, "safe and sanitary" required the government to provide minors with soap, a toothbrush, a blanket and conditions conducive to sleep. judge ordered that facilities be inspected to make certain these bare minimums were being provided. 

government wanted to appeal the judge's actions, but they couldn't. weren't possible to appeal clarification o' the already existing settlement. so government tries a different approach-- claim specific enumeration o' soap, toothbrushes and blankets by the judge fundamental changed the meaning o' the flores settlement.  chill's "obviously" statement were kinda pointless in the present context, but judges found what were obvious were that in the case o' minor detainees, many o' who were being held for significant periods o' time, access to soap, a toothbrush, a blanket and conditions conducive for sleep were part o' the "safe and sanitary" requirement from the flores settlement.

sisyphus at work, eh?

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Gfted1]

K

Its a damn shame illegal immigration isn't really illegal, but driving them across the border is. That must really harsh a lot of future patriots. So sad. We should probably just make it legal too so we don't have to bother to prosecute them. 

[HoonDing]

[ShadySands]

Human smuggling isn't the same thing as unlawful border crossings and in my experience coyotes, with rare exceptions, aren't in it out of the goodness of their hearts. I'll concede that I'm no expert on it but I did grow up and live near the border for about 20 years.

Mind you, I'm also not for throwing open the gates but I think GD's idea a little while back was a pretty good one. Issue work permits and have them pay taxes and heavily fine anyone who is caught trying to pay them under the table. I think that's a decent start for an incredibly complicated issue.

[Guard Dog]

MAGA: MAke Greenland American

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Guard Dog

[Gfted1]

Such beautiful outfits!

Imo, coyotes are similar to bus drivers. They aren't forcing anyone to immigrate, they just collect a fee and drive a few miles over the border. Otherwise these poor troubled souls could get lost in the hot hot desert or drown in the Rio Grande. They are truly doing gods work for those that cannot. "Gas, grass or ass, but nobody rides free."  

[HoonDing]

Greenland belongs to white Americans. Send the natives back to Antarctica.

[Gromnir]

52 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

K

Its a damn shame illegal immigration isn't really illegal, but driving them across the border is. 

unauthorized border crossing is illegal. ain't criminal. if gifted builds an extension on his house w/o such improvements being to code, his actions is violations o' law. illegal. however, such actions by gifted ain't criminal. 

government decides a good way to deter folks from doing home improvements w/o proper inspections and/or in violation o' code is to separate families who engage in such behavior. show up to a younger gifted's wrong-built home and take his wife and child away... temporarily.

"so sad"?

such silliness is ok though, 'cause folks is convenient forgetting how building code violations is illegal.

multiple administrations has faced border crossing problems, though rare has they been so self-inflicted. nevertheless, previous administrations managed to muddle through w/o a general policy o' child separation. 

regardless, regarding gifted's poor coyotes, if you can somehow convince enough like-minded folks to pressure their Congressmen into changing law, then perhaps you may get your wish regarding the end o' manifest unfairness being delivered unto coyotes. am suspecting a long wait. 

'course most o' us realize how similar actions may provide different levels o' criminal punishment. take identical male twins as an example. twin 1 is releasing measurable amounts o' carcinogens and toxins into the air daily. twin 2 is doing same. twin 1 is a 2-pack-a-day smoker. twin 2 runs a large chemical refinery and he is knowing polluting in violation o' law. pretend there is no difference 'cause they is fundamental doing same thing is absurd, but here we is somehow.

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Gromnir

[Gfted1]

I dunno g, if the crime isn't criminal, neither should the transportation. You don't want floaters, do you?

[Zoraptor]

3 hours ago, Gorth said:

Looks like the UK got fed up with keeping Iranian oil tankers hostage and let it depart Gibraltar. Mostly of interest because Trump has recently tried bullying the Australia government into joining the war against  Iran that he (and the Saudis) wants so badly. I wonder if he wont try to mimic the Prussians who got fed up with the Austrians (not to be confused with Australians, thank you very much) as they kept outmaneuvering Prussia in the game of diplomacy and just went screw it, lets cut to the chase and declare war against Austria anyway, casus belli be damned.

 

Bismark took advantage of a pop up event so he didn't need a CB.

The tanker getting released was near inevitable in the circumstances because, having induced the seizure in the first place when Britain wanted help protecting their tankers the US told then to FOAD and that they wouldn't get reciprocal help (without most likely refuting the JCPOA and formally joining the anti Iran coalition). Perhaps the funniest part is that the 'agreement' for the Grace I not to go to Syria will get end run by simple expedient of... changing ownership and renaming the ship to something other than Grace I. Geopolitically the most interesting part was the Brits mentioning but otherwise ignoring the US request to hand it over to them (probably as 'reparations' for Iran's- non existent- role in 9/11), which suggests more than a little resentment over how the situation played out and the lack of US support.

[ShadySands]

Warren overtakes Biden in UK betting

#AnyoneOtherThanBidenOrHarris

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by ShadySands

[Bartimaeus]

2 hours ago, ShadySands said:

Warren overtakes Biden in UK betting

#AnyoneOtherThanBidenOrHarris

 

Should probably stick an "OrTrump" at the end there, .

[Skarpen]

11 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

I dunno g, if the crime isn't criminal, neither should the transportation. You don't want floaters, do you?

I see you want to check how many times one can miss the point

5 hours ago, ShadySands said:

Warren overtakes Biden in UK betting

#AnyoneOtherThanBidenOrHarris

 

Watching Dems trying to pick a candidate in this tiptoeing around everything and victimhood olympics environment they created is so much fun. Maybe they will find actual candidate to go against Trump in 2036 or 2040.

[Guard Dog]

Democrats vs Republicans. It really is contest of villains isn't it? Sauron vs Sauruman. Palpatine vs Vader. Alien vs Predator. A battle between two would be tyrants whose supporters fight among themselves to determine whose belly they all end up in. But you know what? All of those examples are competently evil. It's really a contest between the Joker and the Penguin (from the Adam West TV show) for political supremacy. Not that they are incapable of causing great harm in a mean and petty way.

Case in point: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/warning-or-threat-democrats-ignite-controversy-with-supreme-court-brief-in-gun-case/2019/08/16/2ec96ef0-c039-11e9-9b73-fd3c65ef8f9c_story.html 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Guard Dog

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Lol, Sauron couldn't stop a couple of shortys from destroying his ring despite having an evil of army of doom, Sauruman had his schemes foiled at every turn, Palpatine got thrown down a shaft by a guy he thought was loyal and had his empire destroyed by some rebels and carebears, Vader managed to miss that he had a kid for 2 decades and then turncoated, Aliens are dumb and only know how to kill and reproduce, and the Preadators routinely get beat by less impressive physical specimens with primitive technology. The point of all this isn't to flex basic scifi/fantasy knowledge, but to point out how competency is usually an illusion based more upon aesthetic and demeanor than proficiency.