The Ultimate discussion thread

[pmchem]

If you begin The Ultimate in 5.0, the following quest is in your journal:

https://imgur.com/a/1oWEc1k

That's 15, yes 15 big bad bosses that you must defeat in combat.  They can be clicked for some more, very brief details.  There are specific warnings on many of them not to take alternate resolutions to their encounter.

So, uh, who has a build that can do them all within the time restrictions required by Magran's Fires?

[Enoch]

Could be worse-- it could include the Gorecci Street looters! 

[Yougottawanna]

My initial thoughts on how to do this are:

Single-class Monk (I'm not sure about subclass/no class. If Nalpazca still gets the debuff on Arcane Dampener/Cleanse then that's out. Helwalker's main advantage is speed in individual fights, so I don't think that's optimal. No sublass Monk may be the best)

High will defense (meaning high INT and at least moderately high RES, you can stack will super high and make yourself unhittable to many of the game's most dangerous threats)

Use monk cheese (meaning Whispers of the Wind/Resonating Touch/dual blunderbuss/avenging storm scrolls/items or some combination of the above)

Arcana is probably the best skill to either level up or respec into (it just gives you so many options, even though the "_____ storm" group of spells may have been nerfed)

Stealth through the first island, then blitz the non-combat quests up to at least level 12, if not more (I haven't looked into the timeline restraints in that much detail, but I think Eothas' challenge can be managed)

Problems with this plan:

The SSS fights that puts you into a construct and takes away your usual abilities (this problem will have to be solved with consumables somehow I expect)

Keeping Vela alive (I haven't even tried that challenge so I don't know what the hard things about it are)

Ondra's challenge (don't want to lose to some random crookspur slaver 20 hours in, this is probably manageable but I don't personally have experience with it, especially now that the ship-to-ship combat mechanics have changed)

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Yougottawanna

[dunehunter]

SC monk or herald  @Marigoldran

[Jayd]

16 minutes ago, Yougottawanna said:

The SSS fights that puts you into a construct and takes away your usual abilities (this problem will have to be solved with consumables somehow I expect)

It doesn't say you have to clear every fight, just the Porokoa. You don't have to do that fight to get to it.

Anyway, if anybody actually does this thing (when? I'm going to say 'if'), that's going to be a Let's Play I watch from beginning to end.

[DozingDragon]

Has anyone beaten Dorudugan solo with Hylea's challenge?  I feel like you would need to rely heavily on scrolls of Withdraw or something like that to even have a shot at keeping Vela alive through that fight.  

[dunehunter]

2 minutes ago, DozingDragon said:

Has anyone beaten Dorudugan solo with Hylea's challenge?  I feel like you would need to rely heavily on scrolls of Withdraw or something like that to even have a shot at keeping Vela alive through that fight.  

As far as I know u cannot use LoH on Vela, so a shieldbearer try failed.

[Boeroer]

If I would use a SC Monk it would be a Forbidden Fist. It synergises very well with high defenses and especially high RES which not only gives you bonus defelction but also shorter afflictions and other harmful effects. Enfeebled for "free" (if your RES is high enough) combined with wound generation that does not rely on getting damaged, combined with Crucible and the usual monk stuff that makes him awesome sounds like the best way to beat the hardest bosses. I mean compared to a vanilla monk.

I wonder if a kiting build with a high deflection SC Forbidden Fist, Graceful Retreat + Tumbling + Imagined Pain  would be any good to generate a lot of wounds while kiting. Not necessarily advantageous in all fights, but still... you'll need WIthdrawal for Vela though. I think she is the most annoying part of this challenge. 

[AeonsLegend]

That list sounds a bit like:

• Collect 139,377 brown rocks
• Defeat Ug-Thak, Lord of Skags
• Pilfer lost staff of Mount Schuler
• Defeat Destroyer of Worlds
• Dance, dance, baby

[Silvaren]

Time restriction with Woedica's challenge force players to pick class with infinite resources and protecting Vela can be really painful problem.

The good part of first ultimate was that players could at least try it with any class. I know it was possible to win as mage, priest, rogue or even druid (there was one succesful druid run?) not only those classes like monk, cipher or chanter.

Josh said that playtesters wrote many pages about why it may be impossible to finish new UC. I know that PoE1 Ultimate was in the "impossible" state for some time. This time it actually may  be impossible.

[Kaylon]

The hardest part will be to keep Vela alive. 

13 minutes ago, Silvaren said:

Time restriction with Woedica's challenge force players to pick class with infinite resources and protecting Vela can be really painful problem.

Priest of skaen/bloodmage with Shroud of the Phantasm is a solid candidate. You just have to figure a way to deal with the cleansing obelisk of the Sigilmaster which can't be resisted (don't know if invisibility helps), but if you manage to destroy it very fast I think it's doable.

Anyway, I think the SC monk is the best candidate for the Ultimate because of the way resonance can be stacked, making hard fights much easier.

[Silvaren]

I'm thinking about troubadour/blood mage with Mith Fyr + Zandethus' Draconic Fury, Alacrity, defense buffs and lots of illusion's fear debuffs along with that flail with additional pen against enemies affected by mental affliction.

I don't know how it will work against any megaboss or lava dragon.

Another build I would like to test is death godlike berserker/bleak walker with focus on additional damage againat near death targets but I don't know if it has any sense at all. 

There is always a herald but dps may be problematic.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Silvaren

[Alhoon]

There's one thing I find a bit questionable:

Quote

Cheating, including save-scumming, use of third-party tools or mods, and/or doing anything in a manner contrary to the spirit of the challenge is prohibited.

Cheating and using mods is clear, of course.

About save-scumming, I really hope they have some sort of system in place to flag save files as "save-scummed" or something, if that's even possible.

But the real question is the last part, what counts as "in a manner contrary to the spirit of the challenge"? I mean, I don't think this challenge is possible without some major cheese strategies, but having your save arbitrarily invalidated because of that would be quite disheartening.

[Silvaren]

7 minutes ago, Alhoon said:

Counts as "in a manner contrary to the spirit of the challenge"?

It's about situations like you ask a friend to beat some boss for you during friendly visit in your house 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Silvaren

[Kaylon]

15 minutes ago, Alhoon said:

But the real question is the last part, what counts as "in a manner contrary to the spirit of the challenge"? I mean, I don't think this challenge is possible without some major cheese strategies, but having your save arbitrarily invalidated because of that would be quite disheartening.

For me those are things not intended or exploits - using Gouging Strike and hiding for 1 hour until the boss is dead without fighting is probably one of them. But I think Obsidian should clarify that.

[Dr <3]

I wold roll too a sc monk or some kind of chanter multiclass. Main problems i forsee in the challange are

- keep vela alive

- use a renovable resource class like monk / chanter/ chyper ( woedica challange is a pain)

- keep up with the timelines.

Moreover, since it is an hardcore run is much better to invest in a robust character instead of a glass cannon build, since a single bad roll in the end of the game could ruin the whole thing

[Constentin Lévine]

1 hour ago, Kaylon said:

For me those are things not intended or exploits - using Gouging Strike and hiding for 1 hour until the boss is dead without fighting is probably one of them. But I think Obsidian should clarify that.

however, you cant : Eothas time limit

[Boeroer]

A fight that takes one hour takes way less time than resting. So... shouldn't be a problem as long as you don't do it in every encounter for every enemy.

[Kaylon]

I don't have much experience with Vela, but if she stays at the same spot during all the fight you should be able to withdraw her at the beginning and then move as far away as possible from her to prevent any monster from aggroing her. 

If you don't rest I don't think the time limit is a problem, but of course you have to optimize your travels.

Anyone knows how fast your equipment is degrading with Abydon's challenge? If it can break during a mega-boss fight it might be a big problem...

[MaxQuest]

4 hours ago, Alhoon said:

There's one thing I find a bit questionable:

Cheating and using mods is clear, of course.

About save-scumming, I really hope they have some sort of system in place to flag save files as "save-scummed" or something, if that's even possible.

But the real question is the last part, what counts as "in a manner contrary to the spirit of the challenge"? I mean, I don't think this challenge is possible without some major cheese strategies, but having your save arbitrarily invalidated because of that would be quite disheartening.

Yeah, afaik there is no protection vs making a copy of ToI save, and swaping that one in, in case of fail.

Also it would make sense if the save included the hashsum of gamedatabundles. Because a player can edit enemy crit chance, AI behaviours, increase their cd times and other stuff like that; which will hardly be noticeable in a video.

And here helps the "in a manner contrary to the spirit of the challenge" which kinda covers the concerns above, plus stuff like:

- 2nd party software (everyone usually mentions only 3rd party one ^^)

- existing in-game bugs, like making more than 20 stacks with Beast's Claw (e.g. what will Belranga do, if you have 200+ extra acc/deflection vs beasts). Or I remember being discussed that it was possible to stack all existing food bonuses.

- existing "exploits", although I don't really know how we gonna figure out what is intended, and what is not, e.g:

• stacking 700+ Resonating Touch instances on Dorudugan in order to insta-kill him and bypass the spells which his AI starts casting at 50% and 25% hp, doesn't really seem intended, no?
• or how about abusing enemy targeting behaviour? like getting out of range before his melee attack hits, or using a summon which the enemy will be chasing in a circle?
• there was a video of stacking Brilliant duration, via using Wall of Draining on barrels.
• also, can players use ApplyOverTime effects? These are currently affected by INT (last tested in v4.1.2). And it can potentially bring stuff like Unbending Trunk to the former glory. Think for example of tactician/rogue with Unbending and Pernicious Cloud (which will be able to clear 99% of content relatively safely; although yeah, dunno what he will do vs Dorudugan's mind immunity and thus lack of flanking).
• also, can players use recursive shenanigans with Mortars/Rods?

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by MaxQuest

[Silvaren]

23 minutes ago, MaxQuest said:

• stacking 700+ Resonating Touch instances on Dorudugan in order to insta-kill him and bypass the spells which his AI starts casting at 50% and 25% hp, doesn't really seem intended, no?

Can Wael challenge hide number of stacks? 

[MaxQuest]

^ It will likely will. But it's mostly a nuisance, since after ~20 minutes the player will probably stack enough of them. And if he survived 20 min, he can stack them for extra 10-15 minutes just to be sure.

Edited May 9, 2019 by MaxQuest

[thelee]

13 hours ago, dunehunter said:

As far as I know u cannot use LoH on Vela, so a shieldbearer try failed.

Dang, there goes my idea. Plan on bringing/craftings lots of scrolls of withdraw then.

1 hour ago, Kaylon said:

I don't have much experience with Vela, but if she stays at the same spot during all the fight you should be able to withdraw her at the beginning and then move as far away as possible from her to prevent any monster from aggroing her. 

If you don't rest I don't think the time limit is a problem, but of course you have to optimize your travels.

Anyone knows how fast your equipment is degrading with Abydon's challenge? If it can break during a mega-boss fight it might be a big problem...

Vela doesn't stand in one spot, she wanders periodically as if she's terrified. It's actually quite annoying, and would make kiting-based strategies extremely hard since once combat starts she's no longer "leashed" to staying near you (unlike a pet, who even in combat will stay nearby your PC).

my eothas run was pretty lush, time-wise, after hasongo - you front load a lot of nekataka quests in act 2 and suddenly act 3 and 4 are pretty spacious. You still should not waste time searching burial sites or shipwrecks, and you should definitely not aimlessly wander around the map (or even try many ship bounties), but if you're basically doing a no-rest, any% run of the DLCs the timing shouldn't be awful.

abydon challenge - i hadn't thought of that. my abydon run, by late game, even modest fights could see weapons and armor breaking down twice in one fight - it was so annoying i ended up blitzing through the crit path at around level 14 or so. Dorudugan, Belrange, and Sigilmaster you could get around it by gouging/branding them to death, but Hauani O Whe you probably need to bring in a lot of backup weapons or else you'll be left without anything. Wael would make this more annoying because you'd have no idea how much money you'd have to do repairs.

however, if you're a chanter, you can just keep summoning allies, and they don't break down. in this respect, being part monk (or picking up monastic unarmed training) or part chanter is probably required or else you just won't be able to last long enough to do decent damage.

21 minutes ago, Silvaren said:

Can Wael challenge hide number of stacks? 

yes. wael challenge is pretty thorough in what it hides.

[thelee]

some more thoughts on interactions:

i don't think enough people are paying attention to ondra's factor here. ondra + wael is probably going to make most early ship combat more lethal - you'll literally have no idea how well your ship is doing (other than seeing a "repair hull" event icon appear at 50%), how well the other ship is doing, how far apart the two of you are, and you won't be able to outrun most ships even early on (on map or in combat). on ironman mode this basically removes an easy XP generator early game (until you buy a better ship) unless you're willing to roll the dice and start from scratch every time you die out of nowhere. (though eothas will prevent you from doing all the ship bounties in the first place).

i think using a trap to get an injury and stocking up on rekvu gear is going to be required, mostly for the interrupt protection. With Galawain's on, all you need is a small pack of low level beasts with Bullish on them to interrupt lock you to death.

the brand/gouging tactic may work less well because with vela around you have to find a way to de-aggro enemies completely, and the big problem I see is that you can't force Vela to run back after combat begins, and if you use a scroll of withdraw on her and then on yourself, she will come out of withdraw first and likely be close enough to re-aggro the enemies before you have a chance to come out of withdraw and protect her. maybe you can quaff a potion of refuge (with diff alchemy skill level it'll be shorter than the Vela withdraw), but it still doesn't solve the re-aggroing problem.

14 hours ago, Yougottawanna said:

Arcana is probably the best skill to either level up or respec into (it just gives you so many options, even though the "_____ storm" group of spells may have been nerfed)

arcana is the only skill that actually gates your ability to use scrolls. you can have alchemy of 0 and explosives of 0 and still use potions and bombs (if crappily). arcana you can't even use a scroll of fan of flames unless you have a point or two. so i think investing in arcana is the way to go.

Edited May 9, 2019 by thelee

[JESUSSSAYSNO]

13 hours ago, dunehunter said:

As far as I know u cannot use LoH on Vela, so a shieldbearer try failed.

I was doing Shieldbarer runs on stream last night and it wasn't happening. You cannot target Vela with LoH. Vela can be healed with AoE, but it's kind of a crapshoot. She will always periodically die and there's nothing you can do but take the L.

Other notes: Infinite resources are mandatory. I was playing BM/Shieldbarer Arcane Knight and my paladin half was dragging me down the entire time. Make sure you have damn good passives or infinite resources. Monk, Tactician, Chanter, and Bloodmage come to mind as the best for this run.