Politics and Statesmenship: A Forum Special Report

[Malcador]

50 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

25 years for something that happened in a war zone seems pretty serious. I believe in accountability, but that is a pretty complicated situation.

What's complicated about this ? Some grunt thinks he's suddenly intelligence material and then executes a guy with a defense not even the LAPD would use.

I guess this pardon is just jerk-off material for Trump fans, who think RoE's handcuff our boys and probably think they woulda won 'Nam if not for the politicians

[HoonDing]

If you kill your enemies, they win.

[ShadySands]

 

[Gromnir]

if the dominion had stayed aligned with the klingons, things woulda' ended much different. 

klingon perspective... by way o' conan:

HA! Good Fun!

Edited May 7, 2019 by Gromnir

[injurai]

Ever since the Adam Ruins Christopher Columbus, I've stopped giving him any attention. Yeah, Columbus isn't the first to "discover" the "new world," but it goes beyond that. The whole thing is so political drenched with misinformation, lies, totally inaccurate framing, and is heavily concocted as a guide to thinking "woke."

It's like it's trying to out liberal the best liberal, but appearing more liberal but actually being less liberal. It's this awful liberal facade that is so in vogue now, and if Adam had any spine he wouldn't be attaching his name to such spurious posturing. Yet he does and continues to do so, so why try to sort through the good and the bad of his content. I'd rather drink from more consistent liberal streams that don't deviate from historical truths. You still derive the same values from history, you just have an accurate portrayal of history to point back upon.

[Gfted1]

Raithe's post in another thread made me think...how about free houses for everyone! It can easily be argued that a roof over your head is a "fundamental right" (yadda yadda), even moreso than an "education". Now this is an idea that I can get behind because I too would get to partake in the spoils (god knows I wouldn't go to school at my age if it suddenly became "free"). As always, we can "just pay for it" or "tax the rich" and *BOOM* I just solved homelessness and my mortgage in one fell swoop.

[Hurlshort]

1 hour ago, injurai said:

Ever since the Adam Ruins Christopher Columbus, I've stopped giving him any attention. Yeah, Columbus isn't the first to "discover" the "new world," but it goes beyond that. The whole thing is so political drenched with misinformation, lies, totally inaccurate framing, and is heavily concocted as a guide to thinking "woke."

I just watched it, but it seems more like a comedy bit than any hard hitting history. Of course, all that modern lens looking at history is rubbish. 

[ShadySands]

ARE is just light edutainment. There's a clear bias in most of the episodes but I treat it like Wikipedia as he also cites his sources, usually displayed on screen, and it makes it easier to find more info on a given subject.

Of course his gimmick is to ruin whatever the topic is so you know how he's going to come at whatever the subject is.

Edited May 7, 2019 by ShadySands
Levon Tostig

[injurai]

8 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

I just watched it, but it seems more like a comedy bit than any hard hitting history. Of course, all that modern lens looking at history is rubbish. 

Is Adam ruins everything simply comedy bits that all center around being shockingly and foolishly flippant? And the audience is in on the bit? It's whole premise is being politically educational, it's about "coming up to speed" with what might have been wrong in your text books when you were growing up If you take Adam at all serious as a person off camera, you'll find he's more than a cynical entertainer, he's seriously committed to the mission that the show pushes as it's premise. There is not "in on the joke" if you will.

Being politically strident works if you are right, and even then it's questionable whether it's actually prudent or virtuous to do so. It also works when you're wrong. The attitude is very much illiberal, as it sells ideas in the format of a "liberal confidence man." But people lap it up because "sticking it to conservatives/inherited ignorance" is a far more tantalizing piece of entertainment then, "let's all learn how to be actually liberals every night after a long days work." People don't care, or if they do they trust the show is honest and is deliver nuggets of truth in an engaging and contemporary format. The show could continue to attack poor ideas or even be openly bias against conservativism, but it's almost as if it doesn't want to take on the real giants, and it runs out of material if it only ever picks low hanging fruit. So I guess they just make **** up? Or they are sloppy and aren't rally dedicated to making a show about liberal truths.

It's unsurprising how influential these programs are on politics. They sell shibboleths that people are ready to respond to. The soon as a true liberal comes around and steps out of the orthodox, they are nixed. How convenient for the owners of these broadcasting companies. And what's easier for them is they bring up the next generation of producers, hosts, and writers that will happily work on the programs totally unironically because they believe they are "in the trenches for liberalism."

Shibboleths are like magic. They can be anything, they can be mundane. You sow a whole bunch, little factoids that people latch onto. When someone serious and real comes around, they now have to walk through a bunch of landmines that the populace isn't even all that aware that they hold. But they react on it, because they "can't afford some lunatic running the show."

 

 

[Gromnir]

statement by former federal prosecutors

update:

current number o' signatories is 728.

last update 'til it exceeds 1000.

HA! Good Fun!

[Zoraptor]

11 hours ago, Gromnir said:

another zor moment. proof of trump's boosted approval were us lies 'bout the results? is that your logical conclusion?

Well, I gave you a way out, can't say I didn't. I'll come to your latest reading comprehension fail later, but for now:

16 hours ago, Gromnir said:

that is part o' the difference 'tween the object lesson which were the cruise missiles to syria and the present situation with iran.  

syria were a b!tch slap... nothing more.

were limited and calculated to humiliate both syria and russia, and it were highly effective. no real chance o' escalation. us tells syria and russia that the slap is coming and they have more than an hour to sit and prepare to be slapped. humiliation. no casualties. more important to media and voters, no us casualties. coulda' sent cruise missiles anywhere in syria, and not just the air base. wouldn't necessarily be warning next time when a missile ended up catching general ________ on the toilet, eh?

You've forgotten one rather important thing. It was US strikes, not strike. Shayrat was only the first.

So yes, bombing Shayrat was so effective an object lesson that a year later the US had to bomb Syria again... Does its effectiveness as a 'slap' really need any more refutation than that? Rhetorical question, I don't want another random youtube link. Syria was so scared and humbled that they did the same thing again. Of course, no nerve agent found in Douma and the first Khan Sheikhoun attack had 40% of its victims in hospital before the supposed bomb (and it's still rocket rather than bomb debris they showed) was dropped even according to the OPCW-JIM report. That the JIM decided to ignore causality when assigning blame was also why it got its mandate rescinded, not that you'd know that from media either.

As for your reading comprehension fail, US lies were proof of the ineffectiveness of the strikes as if they were effective they wouldn't have needed to lie but could have just told the truth. That the average US citizen loves Michael Bay style news of explosions and Old Glory being waved while Brian Williams climaxes live on screen to tomahawk launches needs no supporting evidence beyond having eyes and ears and being alive over the last 20 odd years. Lies being: 20% of Syria's air force destroyed at Shayrat (20% wasn't even present), all missiles bar one arrived (Airbus satellite shots- not publicly available unfortunately- indicate only one set of thirty arrived) and of course the airbase was back in action the next day. 2nd attack: Barzeh research centre was CW related (cleared of such by the OPCW and pretty recently before the strikes too, indeed iirc the opcw was based there at one point), every missile launched hit its target (at least one was trucked off to Russia) and using 76 missiles at 120 million USD to not even fully destroy a 5 storey building is at very best suspicious. Still, better than the French who it seems only had one missile successfully hit in the end which is why we never got satellite images or proper identification of their target. That's brief and there were smaller lies too, but I cbf listing all of them.

[Hurlshort]

I'd say it was obviously flippant. He's in a Magic School Bus parody where the teacher turns bad kids into lizards. Again, I haven't watched enough of his stuff to comment more than that on it.

[injurai]

I meant flippant as facetious. He's not just making a brief momentary remark that puts on a false pretense for dramatic affect. It's a hounding of a correct perspective that drags on for minutes, all seeped with a righteous indignation against those who have propagated the "misconceptions." In reality the show ends up doubling down on the exact thing it purports to be liberating you from.

I don't think the show is cynical or conniving. I think it's a bunch of people up their own ass and aren't familiar with rigor. The might be working vigorously to make the show, but not rigorously. Which is why I've entirely written the show off at this point.

And sorry for all the text plus the 20 minute video, it's just there if you're interested in how bad Adam Ruins Everything is at it's content.

[ShadySands]

1 minute ago, Hurlshot said:

I'd say it was obviously flippant. He's in a Magic School Bus parody where the teacher turns bad kids into lizards. Again, I haven't watched enough of his stuff to comment more than that on it.

The episodes are really hit and miss

[Gromnir]

1 minute ago, Zoraptor said:

stuff

the list o' zor triggers is getting too big for us to follow... and here we thought we were giving you a pass rather than rubbing your nose in it. though bring up reading comprehension is particular amusing

"The only thing either strike on Syria accomplished was boosting Trump's approval, that the US lied blatantly about the results was more than proof enough of that."

as such your reply is completely unresponsive given your original proposition. you in no way tied your "lies" to trump approval, hyperbolic silliness 'bout michael bey and brian williams aside. we pointed out how, once again, you failed to be logical and you respond by making same mistakes. build your syllogism, then get back to us... or don't. regardless, your reading comprehension fail has you once again achieving an epic miss. 

but as to the syria missile stuff specific, this is indeed spam. you wanna revisit, be our guest. honest cannot imagine why you wanna get the same treatment as the guy in the rock n' rolla clip... again.   say something new... or at least get your reading comprehension issues fixed.

HA! Good Fun!

[Zoraptor]

"The only thing either strike on Syria accomplished was boosting Trump's approval, that the US lied blatantly about the results was more than proof enough of that."

Try reading it again, slowly, and maybe get someone nearby to help explain it. The lies obviously aren't tied to Trump's approval, blowing up random brown people by itself is more than enough for that. They lied about accomplishing anything significant apart from that. If they'd accomplished anything significant they wouldn't have had to lie about things like destroying more planes than were even present. I was even kind enough to drop a hint by mentioning 'either strike'.

The great irony being that- as often happens- your rush to get in a zinger combined with your ignorance to make my point for me since you forgot there were two sets of strikes, didn't take the hint and talked about the first like it was some glorious deterrent that taught those evildoers the error their ways. The Shayrat strike accomplished nothing except for a boost in Trump's ratings. Didn't stop airstrikes, didn't stop the base being used the next day, it destroyed a handful of aircraft that were mostly derelict enough to be present on satellite photos from a year earlier and blew up some sheds and aircraft shelters (which everyone knew wouldn't stop modern bombs anyway). And it didn't even work as a deterrent to stop Syria using CW again, according to the US itself. Completely ineffective slap that humiliated no one; all it did was give flag wavers and Trump himself a chubby.

[Gromnir]

30 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

"The only thing either strike on Syria accomplished was boosting Trump's approval, that the US lied blatantly about the results was more than proof enough of that."

Try reading it again, slowly, and maybe get someone nearby to help explain it.The lies obviously aren't tied to Trump's approval, blowing up random brown people by itself is more than enough for that 

we read it and no, assuming the connection 'tween "blowing up random brown people," lies and trump approval is not enough.  the problem is you so utter do not understand logic it is comical.  you made inferences and  assumed certain info as self evident.  that ain't logical. gotta develop your syllogism.  we can't keep leading you by the nose to get to conclusions.

https://smile.amazon.com/Introduction-Logic-Irving-M-Copi/dp/1292024828/ref=smi_www_rco2_go_smi_g3905707922?_encoding=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0&ie=UTF8

is gonna be a worthwhile investment, or simple give up anytime logic is at issue. say, "i am not arguing logic" and be done with it... or keep offering these fat curveballs for us to take yard.

HA! Good Fun!

[Gorth]

10 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

I read it all.

Really...

 

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

Really...

 

It did seem rather detailed and long 

[ktchong]

Edited May 8, 2019 by ktchong

[Guard Dog]

1 hour ago, ktchong said:

How about this then. Let's take away all the governments power so it's small enough to drown in a pail of water. Then we won't have to worry about who has control over it! See how easy that is?

[Gfted1]

Checking over my numbers, were going to need to import a crapton more "rich" to finance our free houses. 

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

How about this then. Let's take away all the governments power so it's small enough to drown in a pail of water. Then we won't have to worry about who has control over it! See how easy that is?

**** yeah, but actually kill the state instead of keeping cops around to protect the interests of said corporate takeover-ers through monopolized violence.

[smjjames]

No honor among thieves; https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/07/trump-campaign-david-bossie-1309709 Not strictly new news, but it does show the type of characters Trump surrounds himself with, which isn’t exactly new news either. 

 

Also, whoever wrote that twitter post above forgot to include Trump just to round it out. He may not be a big shot type exec, but he’s still an exec in the usual sense

Edited May 8, 2019 by smjjames

[ktchong]

Trump drained the swamp, and then quickly refilled it with worse people.

Edited May 8, 2019 by ktchong