Politics and Statesmenship: A Forum Special Report

[BruceVC]

11 minutes ago, smjjames said:

Dammit, the captioning is terrible on that and flips from either acting like some kind of heavy accent (which Slavoj probably does have, but I don't think Jordan would have as it's doing that for both men) to transcribing normally.

Anyways, the main problem with a penultimate communist utopia is that it runs smack into human psychology (particularily when dealing with groups larger than your typical hunter-gatherer tribe of over 10,000 years ago) and you'd have to fundamentally change human psychology in order to make it work. That's not to say that some socialist ideas like Social Security can work.

Yes Slavoj always sounds like that and you have to also accept his annoying habit of constantly touching his nose 

I agree that certain socialist ideas do work and are necessary, like social grants. But this can become a nightmare and drain on a countries revenue stream if not properly managed. In SA out of 56 million people only 13 % contribute towards PAYE which contributes  the most towards overall tax which is 38 %

13-16 % of the total tax collected goes towards social grants, its not sustainable in the long term considering all our numerous debts and public expenses 

https://businesstech.co.za/news/finance/207631/this-is-who-is-paying-south-africas-tax/

 

 

 

[Gromnir]

6 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Sooooo.... Trump is going to go to the Supreme Court to stop the House of Representatives from trying to impeach him? Which they have already said they are not trying to do (right now)? 

You know, it's like he has no experience at all in how the US Government is set up. Oh wait... he does have no experience.  Part of me wishes he would go to the SCOTUS to stop one of the branches of government from executing one of it's enumerated powers. Their reply to such a petition might be very comedic. 

have observed more than once how trump appears to have no notion as to what the President is able to do 'ccording to the Constitution. has no better idea regarding Congress or the Court, one might assume such ignorance would be an insurmountable handicap for one who intends to hold the office o' President. unfortunately, the vast number o' trump supporters don't know more than trump, and republican office holders and pundits, with a few exceptions, ain't pointing out or criticizing trump misconceptions. when trump overreach is rebuffed by the co equal branches o' government, he blames his failures on the deep state and fake media and democrats, but the vast majority o' folks supporting trump genuine don't know any better than to believe such nonsense.

the problem for the Court is it only has power as long as people believe it should have power. the Justices may pretend to be above the washington political maelstrom, but history suggests otherwise--switch in time and J. Robert's obamacare decision is examples o' Court pragmatism, yes?

am hopeful the Court would deliver an appropriate chastisement to trump. am believing Roberts would rebuke trump efforts to interfere with the Constitutional prerogative o' Congress. am not certain, and we should be certain, but we ain't.

[injurai]

9 hours ago, BruceVC said:

 

Guys here is an excellent debate between Jordan Peterson and Slavoj Žižek about the benefits and or flaws of Capitalism vs the Communism Manifesto

As usual I find Peterson erudite, reasonable, logical  and compelling. I dont expect anyone to watch all 2 + hours but just the first 40 minutes where Peterson intellectually raises numerous flaws and fabrications with the idea of Communism

I cant imagine people defending the "  Utopian "  ideals of Communism after his points raised 

Yeah, watched it a few days ago. Far more interesting than some of the other debates Peterson has been in, the Harris one's are generally pulling teeth and devolve into very esoteric hair splits over epistemology and language gate-keeping (semantics).

A few things I found salient beyond the points that they clearly outright agreed on. Peterson's criticism of Zizek's adherence to Marxism as opposed to standing under his own (and better) brand of Zizekism. Yes Zizek has many times in the past said he is more of a Hegelian, but he always gets back to try to recover Marxism. I don't think he properly lays out it's follies. I think Zizek is right to criticize Peterson for continuing with the cultural-marxism label, which mostly obfuscates the particulars that Peterson is trying to argue against. Zizek says he knows what Peterson means by it, and he himself criticizes those same things rightly. Zizek and Peterson both agree that people operate on behalf of ideas they aren't even fully aware of, and I think because Peterson's terminology names some of the history that influenced that era's thought, it conflicts with getting at the content of those thoughts.

I think Peterson narrows in on a far better modus operandi than Zizek, where Zizek mostly sits in a position of deep pessimist analysis as to why things are fraught. He comes off a lot like a left version of Peter Hitchens in some regards. While Peterson's position starts to feel a bit Kantian in the whole maximize well-being analog, but now it's about maximizing the meta-game that generates well-being. Zizek does counter with saying that it is at the precise point that Peterson arrives at where things can become corrupted. However I find that everything which can be articulate can and will be corrupted or co-opted. I see no reason to throw one's hands up, really we have no choice but to be sincere and run the red-queen's race. Living is ultimately about maintenance, not achieve a sustained nirvana.

I guess with Zizek's philosophy, there is always a argument as to why you are a victim of your environment. Where as Jordan's philosophy, there is always something you could be doing better or different and there is no end to have far you could push your utility given the constrains of a single life-time. Which means under Jordan, there are clear winners and losers based on one's actions, where with Zizek it gives people an out. Even if Zizek wouldn't enjoy people taking advantage of that escape hatch, I think it's a reason he is generally more popular with media channels that try to sell their audience on being right and fine they way they are. Peterson has a ton of fans, but no media channel wants to admonish those that suckle narrative.

At the end of the day I think these two a better for exploring thought together, I don't see a clear winner of the debate. Simply a conversation and understanding as been publicly advanced.

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, injurai said:

Yeah, watched it a few days ago. Far more interesting than some of the other debates Peterson has been in, the Harris one's are generally pulling teeth and devolve into very esoteric hair splits over epistemology and language gate-keeping (semantics).

A few things I found salient beyond the points that they clearly outright agreed on. Peterson's criticism of Zizek's adherence to Marxism as opposed to standing under his own (and better) brand of Zizekism. Yes Zizek has many times in the past said he is more of a Hegelian, but he always gets back to try to recover Marxism. I don't think he properly lays out it's follies. I think Zizek is right to criticize Peterson for continuing with the cultural-marxism label, which mostly obfuscates the particulars that Peterson is trying to argue against. Zizek says he knows what Peterson means by it, and he himself criticizes those same things rightly. Zizek and Peterson both agree that people operate on behalf of ideas they aren't even fully aware of, and I think because Peterson's terminology names some of the history that influenced that era's thought, it conflicts with getting at the content of those thoughts.

I think Peterson narrows in on a far better modus operandi than Zizek, where Zizek mostly sits in a position of deep pessimist analysis as to why things are fraught. He comes off a lot like a left version of Peter Hitchens in some regards. While Peterson's position starts to feel a bit Kantian in the whole maximize well-being analog, but now it's about maximizing the meta-game that generates well-being. Zizek does counter with saying that it is at the precise point that Peterson arrives at where things can become corrupted. However I find that everything which can be articulate can and will be corrupted or co-opted. I see no reason to throw one's hands up, really we have no choice but to be sincere and run the red-queen's race. Living is ultimately about maintenance, not achieve a sustained nirvana.

I guess with Zizek's philosophy, there is always a argument as to why you are a victim of your environment. Where as Jordan's philosophy, there is always something you could be doing better or different and there is no end to have far you could push your utility given the constrains of a single life-time. Which means under Jordan, there are clear winners and losers based on one's actions, where with Zizek it gives people an out. Even if Zizek wouldn't enjoy people taking advantage of that escape hatch, I think it's a reason he is generally more popular with media channels that try to sell their audience on being right and fine they way they are. Peterson has a ton of fans, but no media channel wants to admonish those that suckle narrative.

At the end of the day I think these two a better for exploring thought together, I don't see a clear winner of the debate. Simply a conversation and understanding as been publicly advanced." 

I also enjoyed how much they really seemed to agree on generally, I was expecting another " Capitalism is evil and must be destroyed "  from Zivek but the debate wasn't like that 

Peterson  prepared around the intellectual argument  and analysed  the factual points of Capitalism vs Communism, he really knew the flaws with many of the Communist Manifesto's doctrine and what Marx and Engel seem to overlook  but Zivek used a more high level view and seemed to focus on the happiness question of the 2 systems. Im not sure how to characterize Ziveks debating style, perhaps more philosophical ?

But Zivek makes me laugh with the way he sometimes makes his argument, do you remember his classic " when people say to me to be positive and the light is at the end of the tunnel I respond by saying....yes and that light is another train coming straight towards us " 

 

[Lexx]

On 4/27/2019 at 7:21 AM, BruceVC said:

or they are more concerned with bashing Trump than explaining what they can do for the USA

Isn't that exactly what happens since years for both sides? It's never about who's doing best for the country, but "the other side is doing so much bad!" Especially the last one was so god damn toxic, just impossible to watch. No surprise the common folk is fed up and hostile, because it's exactly what you see in the media every day.

[Maedhros]

Beto released a pretty comprehensive climate change plan:

https://betoorourke.com/climate-change/

Or wasting money to fight a threat that doesn't exist, depending on you you ask

[Gfted1]

Only 5T? What a steal. We should probably just bundle it together with free health care and college. It should be financed "by the rich" or we can always "just pay it". 

[pmp10]

30 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

Beto released a pretty comprehensive climate change plan:

https://betoorourke.com/climate-change/

Or wasting money to fight a threat that doesn't exist, depending on you you ask

Is there anything more than the 3 pages of bullet points?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, pmp10 said:

Is there anything more than the 3 pages of bullet points?

Sub-bullets

[Gromnir]

Judge Andrew Napolitano: Did President Trump obstruct justice?

SPOILER... or not. answer were, "yes."

HA! Good Fun!

ps what were with the camera work?

 

[BruceVC]

https://news.yahoo.com/venezuela-says-attempted-coup-under-way-114752788.html;_ylt=AwrE189jV8hcA7wAhGxXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEyZzZzdjBhBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjcyMzBfMQRzZWMDc2M-

Attempted coup in Venezuela and its supported by elements of the army which is new. Its uncertain what the outcome will be but hopefully it will lead to the end of the appalling and destructive dictatorship of Maduro who has destroyed the Venezuelan economy with his continued myopic  and flawed socialist policies of Chavez

[smjjames]

Sec. of State even coined a name for it, 'Operacion Libertad'

The Guardian liveblog link if anybody wants it: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2019/apr/30/venezuela-opposition-leader-juan-guaido-claims-coup-underway-live-news

[BruceVC]

53 minutes ago, smjjames said:

 

The Guardian liveblog link if anybody wants it: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2019/apr/30/venezuela-opposition-leader-juan-guaido-claims-coup-underway-live-news

Nice updated link to follow this event 

[Guard Dog]

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/441237-sanders-suggests-disney-should-use-avengers-profits-to-pay-all-of-its-workers

 

Dear Bernie,

 

Look we love you but that s--t ain't happening! We became a multi billion dollar company by charging top dollar for stuff made on the cheap. for You need to go after the "evil" corporations that don't donate millions to Democrats.  

Yours Truly,

Bob Iger

 

LOL, you have to hand it to Bernie. The guy has no clue about economics but at least he is buying his own screed.

[BruceVC]

50 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

LOL, you have to hand it to Bernie. The guy has no clue about economics but at least he is buying his own screed.

But thats a real and serious indictment of Bernie, he doesn't understand how the economy works or rather he makes these sweeping, populist  statements about " breaking up banks  " with no consideration around the economic consequences and outcomes. 

 

[Gfted1]

Ive only voted once in my life but this time I think Im going hardcore left. Im beginning to enter my twilight years and Ima need all the free stuff I can get. Ill even open a paypal account if some of you want to give "anonymously".

[213374U]

Seems today's coup attempt also failed.

Lol, Guaidó is every bit as ineffectual as his master, and worse, he's nowhere near as entertaining. SAD!

[BruceVC]

7 minutes ago, 213374U said:

Seems today's coup attempt also failed.

Lol, Guaidó is every bit as ineffectual as his master, and worse, he's nowhere near as entertaining. SAD!

Which master is this? Oh wait its the "evil, Imperialist, Capitalist " USA right ?

What we should be asking is not what we personally think of Maduro but what do the countries of South America think of him since they have the most to lose or gain by  getting him to step down or supporting him. The Lima Group was founded in 2017 to help end the Venezuelan crisis, it members represent 80 % of the South American countries and many Central American countries

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lima_Group

They should be the authoritative voice in this debate and guess what they think? The 2018 election in Venezuela was a farce 

https://globalnews.ca/news/4221992/canada-lima-group-venezuela-elections/

And Maduro needs to step down or have another fair  election to affirm his legitimacy 

https://en.mercopress.com/2019/02/04/lima-group-meets-in-canada-to-plan-pressure-campaign-against-venezuela-s-maduro

We must try not to let our personal bias towards the USA blind us to the reality on the ground in Venezuela, Maduro is not a legitimate leader and needs to step down immediately 

 

 

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

25 minutes ago, 213374U said:

Seems today's coup attempt also failed.

Lol, Guaidó is every bit as ineffectual as his master, and worse, he's nowhere near as entertaining. SAD!

It succeeded where it matters, in the hearts of social media pundits.

[213374U]

Just now, KaineParker said:

It succeeded where it matters, in the hearts of social media pundits.

Also in Bolton's. No matter what comes, Guaidó will always be the president of his heart.

Brucie, gdiaf.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

3 minutes ago, 213374U said:

Also in Bolton's. No matter what comes, Guaidó will always be the president of his heart.

Brucie, gdiaf.

That's where it matters.  I wager that in 20 years he will be one of the most popular leaders in the Trumpreich mod for HoI6.

[Volourn]

Sanders is cute. I bet his party and his business don't pay all their empoloyees top dollar either.  Then again, this is a guy who bashes millionaires while being one himself. The guy is  anazi plain and simple. The sad part is Nazi sjws loathe him because he is an old white man.  I'm also guessing that the majority of Disney employees aren't exactly  paid 'living on the street wages' either.

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Volourn

[smjjames]

42 minutes ago, 213374U said:

Seems today's coup attempt also failed.

Lol, Guaidó is every bit as ineffectual as his master, and worse, he's nowhere near as entertaining. SAD!

It does appear to have failed in it's immediate goal, but just because it failed doesn't mean the crisis is over yet.

[HoonDing]

Maduro's Spetsnaz rekt Guaido's NAVY Shills.

[Zoraptor]

40 minutes ago, 213374U said:

Seems today's coup attempt also failed.

Lol, Guaidó is every bit as ineffectual as his master, and worse, he's nowhere near as entertaining. SAD!

But he's Young and Dynamic, therefore he must be effective! Just like Macron, Turdeau and Jacinda Ardern.

The most striking thing to me about Guaido is how he physically resembles Barack Obama. Which is kind of ironic, given that Trump regards Obama as basically the antichrist.

6 minutes ago, smjjames said:

It does appear to have failed in it's immediate goal, but just because it failed doesn't mean the crisis is over yet.

Realistically the crisis won't be over until Trump can declare victory. Much like Syria and Iran, if there isn't a politically acceptable military victory on the table economic throttling and asymmetric measures will be tried.