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Beast of Winter Disappointed Me


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#1
Ananisapta

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I invested $10 and a few days of playtime in BoW expansion and found a lot to like, but the final boss defeated me. I researched him and found there were a few skills that might have helped IF ONLY I'd had the foresight to acquire them, but I hadn't needed them up to then and there was no way to get them without restarting the map. To me, it appeared there was a large difficulty gap between this boss and the rest of the expansion... even with the limited help I had from the three heroes I recruited. Under the circumstances, BoW seemed a waste of time and money to me.



#2
Phenomenum

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What stopping you from changing difficulty level?



#3
Verde

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What stopping you from changing difficulty level?


Pride. The downfall of gamers everywhere.

Edited by Verde, 31 March 2019 - 12:32 PM.

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#4
Zelse

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 a few days of playtime in BoW expansion and found a lot to like, but the final boss defeated me. I researched him and found there were a few skills that might have helped IF ONLY I'd had the foresight to acquire them, but I hadn't needed them up to then and there was no way to get them without restarting the map

No he is right. The whole fight is a joke.

The guy is very doable on POTD at around level 10 IF some random guy at Obsidian wouldnt have been like "You know what would make this fight really fun and interactive? Giving him ****ing 17 AR!" The fight actually has interesting mechanics, aoe pull terrify, anti melee, adds that heal, all good stuff but NOPE they HAD TO ****ING GIVE HIM ****ING STUPID AMOUNTS OF THEIR ****ING BRAINDEAD ARMOR MECHANIC.

 

And i know what youre thinking now... But hey you can just arcane dampener his Llengraths bull****, well **** no you cant because both his fort and will are over 9000 as well. So you cant use jack**** to debuff his armor either because its impossible to land anything except chanters armor break.

 

But hey his crush is rather low right so you can just use crush weapons? Ohh yea right IF YOU HAD BOTHERED TO PUT A SINGLE ****ING DECENT WEAPON THAT DOES CRUSHING DAMAGE INTO THE GAME. Theres ****ING ONE! Chromo Staff which is ultra late.

 

Ohh and casters? Well those are just ****ED! Just forget it. At least you can technically get legendary weapons early (and still bounce because legendary still dont have enough pen to deal with this expertly designed boss). With spells - just nope - GREAT AR SYSTEM BTW - FUN AND INTERACTIVE.

 

Yes you can bring a ton of pen food and pots but WHY would you - and WHY SHOULD YOU HAVE TO? Is that what you want the game to be? AR optimizing simulator? Unless you have metagame knowledge youre ****ed. Its just such pisspoor design. I have no idea how they keep ****ing this game up every opportunity they get but gosh darn they do.

 

I think Obsidian just lost their touch. This game is so unbelievably bad its hard to comprehend. Between the atrocious optimization (Sekiro at release runs more stable than this on the same bloody settings and patch 4.X ROFL), the abyssmal balancing (Red Hand LOL, Blind LOL, frigging Rusted Armor LMAO - theres a million of these - literally 0 playtesters with a brain) and the complete lack of story focus. The way the game heavily discourages combat making it so you can play 8 hours (loading screens LUL) of optimal leveling after leaving the starting island with 1 maybe 2 fights max.

 

Idk maybe they knew their whole design was trash. Probably not. This game is like Brexit. Just a never ending barrel of laughs for everyone who gets to watch it from outside.


Edited by Zelse, 31 March 2019 - 01:45 PM.


#5
Wormerine

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It's been a while but I don't remember a difficulty spike between rest of BoW content the boss fights. Oh, don't take me wrong boss fights in BoW are tougher then rest of the content but that's how it should be (base game had an issue with no difficulty spikes). 

 

If those boss fights stop you from finishing the campain, wait till you try the other two :-D. 



#6
Phenomenum

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@Zelze

Spoiler

Edited by Phenomenum, 31 March 2019 - 02:06 PM.


#7
thelee

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I invested $10 and a few days of playtime in BoW expansion and found a lot to like, but the final boss defeated me. I researched him and found there were a few skills that might have helped IF ONLY I'd had the foresight to acquire them, but I hadn't needed them up to then and there was no way to get them without restarting the map. To me, it appeared there was a large difficulty gap between this boss and the rest of the expansion... even with the limited help I had from the three heroes I recruited. Under the circumstances, BoW seemed a waste of time and money to me.

 
are you talking about the actual beast of winter or the dragon? because the dragon i was under the impression that you could just head back to town at any point in most of BoW.
 
for the actual beast of winter, honestly if you were able to take out the dragon i'm surprised that the beast of winter poses any significant challenge.

personally i found the final dragon fight in bow disappointing because it's literally possible to beat it by just running around (the first time i did just that).
 

But hey you can just arcane dampener his Llengraths bull****, well ****


you can interrupt llengrath's. it seems like anyone playing on PotD really should be paying attention to concentration/interrupt mechanics (and AR/PEN). even if you fail to interrupt it, using a single club's weapon modal (even a basic torch) will likely bring the will defense down enough that you can hit with arcane dampener, -25 is a huge drop even against llengrath's buff. failing that you can also use tranq shot or street sweeper.
 

Yes you can bring a ton of pen food and pots but WHY would you - and WHY SHOULD YOU HAVE TO?


i literally just did this fight for the umpteenth time like 30 minutes ago and i didn't have to bring any PEN-specific consumables. at the end i did self-empower my druid to use rusted armor, but it was at the very end so I could've spent just the extra few minutes to manually end the fight without. i just relied on the standard -1 AR for flanking and weapon modals to get most people to do decent damage (maia had underpen, but crit so frequently with arquebus modal that she frequently was doing more than full damage).

also - AR and PEN is a core mechanic, much like interrupt/concentration. On PotD it should be expected that you interact with this, even if it means you ignore everything else (weapon modals, making sure you have equipped multiple damage types) and instead have to make up for it with consumables.

Edited by thelee, 31 March 2019 - 03:24 PM.

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#8
Boeroer

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The Dracolich isn't very difficult to beat IF you know what you are doing.

Complaining about no decent crush weapon besides Chromoprismatic and complaining about Dracolich's high Fortitude while most likely Saru Sichr and Willbreaker rot in the stash... it speaks volumes. But it can't be the player who's the foot, nohoo! If he can't win it has to be the developer's fault. Decorating this nonsense with lots of scatology rounds the picture of an entitled five year old with anger management issues. Wonder if that's the general approach for every challenge life throws at you.

OP's complaint on the other hand is brought forward quite decently. It can of course be frustrating to run into such a wall. But without challenge no deep feeling of satisfaction - if you finally manage.

There are enough people who solo the dragon with a plethora of builds on PotD. If you can't do it with a full party then it just shows that you didn't find the right angle - yet.

For example there are weapon modals that can be very helpful against an enemy with high defenses. Dracolich's deflection isn't very high, so a club + modal is likely grazing sooner or later, lowering Will by 25. Follow up with a Miasma for -40 Will and suddenly all will based spells can hit very easily. Stuff like Shining Beacon for example. It also does Burn damage which the Dracolich is vulnerable to.

Then of course you can get the help of three NPCs via quests.

My preferred approach is a Morning Star + modal, a flail + modal, a club + modal on my frontliners and Miasma + an empowered Combusting Wounds, followed by a Wall of Flames. Dracolich usually goes down in under 60 secs.

I once did him solo with a Geomancer who wielded a Morning Star. Body Blows on the Dragon, Takedown Combo + Killing Bolt with my wolf, Substantial Phantom + Draining Touch + Miasma pummels the Dragon into Oblivion. And that's without help from NPCs.

That's not for bragging: it just shows that this fight is far from impossible - not even particularly hard - if you know what you are doing/know the mechanics of Deadfire.

I saw guys using Shattered Vengeance on the dragon to good effect. Also fists do work well. Of course everything with fire is a good pick. If you only learn to use the tools that are in your belt the dragon will fall. Those modals and debuffs are there for a reason. It's not "LOLol I have a million dps!!11!!" which will win this fight. Find the gap, broaden it and then strike. Do not pummel the armor with sloppy high dmg attacks. That's a waste no matter how brutally brutal your brute force approach is.

You have to make use of interrupts. First remove the layers of Concentration (there's plenty of time) and once he's about to cast something you interrupt with Knockdown, Thrust of Tattered Veil and so on. Don't waste your powder by just attacking him with everything you have right away. Again: Brute-forcing is not working here.
Ignoring interrupt mechanics will give you a big disadvantage.

And then there's the possibility to lower the difficulty. I mean sure it feels like defeat a bit. But it should feel less awkward than going to a forum and write a brat rant (not OP). ;)

If OP posts his/her party setup and abilities/equipment I'm sure we can come up with a strategy to beat Neriscyrlas without too much fuss and without lowering the difficulty.

By the way I found the Beast of Winter to be an easier fight than Neriscyrlas.

Edited by Boeroer, 31 March 2019 - 10:05 PM.

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#9
Phenomenum

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Funny thing: the first fight with Neriscyrlas, at the start of BoW, was more difficult for me, than final fight.


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#10
Zelse

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The guy is very doable on POTD at around level 10 IF some random guy at Obsidian wouldnt have been like "You know what would make this fight really fun and interactive? Giving him ****ing 17 AR!" 

 

 

 

you can interrupt llengrath's. it seems like anyone playing on PotD really should be paying attention to concentration/interrupt mechanics (and AR/PEN). even if you fail to interrupt it, using a single club's weapon modal (even a basic torch) will likely bring the will defense down enough that you can hit with arcane dampener, -25 is a huge drop even against llengrath's buff. failing that you can also use tranq shot or street sweeper.

 

 

 

Interrupting is the only valid criticism of my post. -25 doesnt do **** if you do this guy at level 10. The values are between 120 to 150 for both. Lategame high level accuracy scaling is stupid to the point where it trivializes all content in the game so doing anything at late game is legit just boring (great game btw).

 

And while interrupting is definitely valid you have to burn through his concentration and after that can still miss those crucial interrupts at level 10 against deflect (and literally lose the fight off that) unless you bring certain specific spells and the useless casters who have those. (and why would you unless you specifically know ahead of time those are going to be required)

 

The Dracolich isn't very difficult to beat IF you know what you are doing.

Complaining about no decent crush weapon besides Chromoprismatic and complaining about Dracolich's high Fortitude while most likely Saru Sichr and Willbreaker rot in the stash... it speaks volumes. But it can't be the player who's the foot, nohoo! If he can't win it has to be the developer's fault. Decorating this nonsense with lots of scatology rounds the picture of an entitled five year old with anger management issues. Wonder if that's the general approach for every challenge life throws at you.
 

 

Saru Sichr is vendor trash. Willbreaker is "later game" and still rather mediocre. Unless you have metagame knowledge there is no reason to have either of those. ("know what youre doing" aka "be a metagame ****") You guys overlevel like retards and wonder why you dont get a decent challenge. -25 off club modal doesnt solve jack**** as mentioned. Miasma targets will but you cant hit will at level 10 even with -25.
 
As mentioned the fight is totally doable early on except for his braindead level of AR. Completely arbitraty MMO gear(stat)check. Great game design btw.
 

 

The Dracolich isn't very difficult to beat IF you know what you are doing.

My preferred approach is a Morning Star + modal, a flail + modal, a club + modal on my frontliners and Miasma + an empowered Combusting Wounds, followed by a Wall of Flames. Dracolich usually goes down in under 60 secs.

 

Again you metagame the fight absurdly hard because you know there is going to be exactly a dragon with exactly those weaknesses (fire and crush) and stat points that require that approach (and youre stupid so metagaming is all you have). If you beat things by metagaming youre not actually playing smart you just reproduce data you already learned - a ****ing monkey can do that.

 

None of this would be necessairy if the game was designed decently and the whole difficulty of the fight wouldnt come down to ONLY his ****ing braindead stupid inflated AR stat.

 

Straight up if you somehow convince yourself AR in this game is an interesting mechanic youre worse than some delusional teenage girl who convinces herself her favourite boyband makes quality music.


Edited by Zelse, 01 April 2019 - 05:02 AM.


#11
Boeroer

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No, we don't overlevel. We just realize that -25 Fortitude via Body Blows (which targets Deflection) might be very handy against a foe who's vulnerable to crush damage, has lower Deflection and high Fortitude. Thus we will switch to a Morning Star as soon as we realized that.

I beat Neriscyrlas the first time I played BoW with a party on PotD at lvl 15 (since the recommended lvl was 15+ for BoW) - without any meta knowledge- simply by looking at her stats and choosing a Morning Star, Combusting Wounds and a Wall of Flame. I had the help of all three NPCs (Waidwen, Inquisitor, King of Ukaizo). It was over very quickly. No metagaming involved.

But even if you fail on the first try: you already have meta knowledge after the first reload. So what's the deal with meta knowledge. If you are not playing Trial of Iron there's no problem in failing a few times to build up some more metaknowledge about the dragon.

Nobody said that PEN/AR is an interesting or good mechanic. Most of us don't like it since it has too much impact and everything evolves around stacking PEN and AR, especially on PotD. But that has not much to do with the claim that Neriscyrlas is impossible to beat (she doesn't even have that high AR in the first place - for a boss) and PEN/AR especially has nothing to do with the way complaints are brought forth.

The problem a lot of players have is that she casts Llengrath's Safeguard at some point. And once that's active she will gain +5 AR on top of her highish AR as soon as she drops below 50% endurance. But you can interrupt that spell rel. easily (3 sec cast) IF you are looking out for what Neriscyrlas is doing and NOT spamming abilities on him without looking. Then his AR is totally manageable (especially if you use fire abilites). OR you use raw damage (Death Ray, Disintegrate and so on). Thare are plenty of ways to deal with that.

I can understand if people complain about Megabosses being just a huge pile of AR, defenses and health - but Neriscyrlas? Nah...

Claiming that Saru Sichr is vendor trash is a bold move. It simply shows that you didn't understand what that weapon does. Its DoT "Poison Dipped" plus upgrades that has secondary effects on tick stack with every hit. So this weapon is actually perfect against boss enemies with high Fortitude. A tick every 12 secs - doesn't sound too good. But once you hit the enemy 10 times you have 10 parallel ticks and things start to become interesting (maybe that Neriscyrlas is immune to poison/disiease though so in that case the DoT will not work). Now you could say "How am I suposed to know this?" and you are right. But when I'm not 100% sure about something I would'nt make such strong and absolute statements.

The Willbreaker is not late game equipment. Doing the Crookspur slavers is mid level content. And even IF you don't have both you can still us a normal Morning Star to apply Body Blows - which is the whole point of using a Morning Star in this case. Lower the defenses so that you can land other, more damaging abilites.

Club lowers Will by 25. Which makes landing Misama more likely (especially if empowered) which will lower it 40 points further. If you don't see how this can be of use you didn't understand the game mechanics at all.

And if you want to tell me that you tried BoW's endboss at lvl 10 (although the recommended level is way higher) - then went to a forum to rant how it's too difficult for you because of high AR (while PEN increases with Power Level which kind of relates to char level) then I can just

shaking_head_breaking_bad.gif

Edited by Boeroer, 01 April 2019 - 09:03 AM.

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#12
Manveru123

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Having multiple weapon damage types is common sense, not metagaming. Even PoE 1 had monsters who were immune/resistant to certain damage types, not to mention very old games like BG. This is nothing new.

 

Also, wasn't this DLC supposed to have a recommended level of 15? I went there when I should and beat him with 4 of my party members running auto-scripts.

 

This just sounds like you blame the game design for the fact that you can't handle POTD. Calm down plz.


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#13
Waski

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And Willbreaker have up to -15 Will debuff on hit if I remember correctly and since it is from item it should stack with everything(?).

#14
thelee

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Boeroer said a lot if already better, but I just had to reiterate that
 

Saru Sichr is vendor trash. Willbreaker is "later game" and still rather mediocre.


is such a lolololol series of statements that it betrays your own willful ignorance about the game. i mean, it's one thing to be wrong we all make our mistakes, it's another thing to just be so *confidently* wrong.

edit - btw, morningstar modal debuff of -25 fort is huge. fighter/monks knock down/force of anguish interrupt on graze and target fort. the two combined means that it is actually quite hard to *not* land an interrupt on llengrath's, even at level 10 (willbreaker has the advantage of being default superb for the extra accuracy). this is not the only way to do it, but it's an extremely easy option if one is desparate. (and you don't even need either. a magical morningstar is good enough, the poison or other extra effects from saru sichr or willbreaker is just icing on the cake, the -25 fort debuff is the star. it's so good that i just leave it on all the time because it's well worth the minor -25% damage)

Edited by thelee, 01 April 2019 - 07:02 AM.

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#15
Zelse

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As expected from an online forum of a specific game it is impossible to overcome the amount of circle jerk and fanboys so nothing new here..

 

Ill leave with this:

Your "modal" mechanic for single target defense debuffs, that requires subpar weapons to allow spells that have no use throughout most of the game (especially when compared to just killing things with weapons) to hit targets, leaves the enemies with much higher defense in those stats than what they have for deflect.

 

The only reason your DLC boss cant be easily killed even earlier in the game than level 10 is statbloat of a stat that effectively reduces damage taken to 0 while almost all counterplay for that stat is negated by even more statbloat.

 

The fact that this huge disaster of a crpg came out in the same generation as DOS2 and Pathfinder Kingmaker is a disgrace for Obsidian.

 

Enjoy the circlejerk.


Edited by Zelse, 01 April 2019 - 07:25 AM.


#16
thelee

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Your "modal" mechanic for single target defense debuffs, that requires subpar weapons to allow spells that have no use throughout most of the game (especially when compared to just killing things with weapons) to hit targets, leaves the enemies with much higher defense in those stats than what they have for deflect.


:rolleyes: "subpar weapons"
 
if your broken assessment of stat balance were true, the barbarian passive threatening presence would be a no-op, instead of the amazing passive that it actually is. you don't need the modal just to land spells, the modal is there as a conditional amplifier.




The only reason your DLC boss cant be easily killed even earlier in the game than level 10 is statbloat of a stat that effectively reduces damage taken to 0 while almost all counterplay for that stat is negated by even more statbloat.


"I don't know how to play this game, so I'm going to mask my ignorance with childlike anger."

(as mentioned before, i went in with actually no explicit anti-AR gear. your "counterplay" complaint is really just "this dragon casts a particular spell and i want to beat the fight without using any of the many tools I have to deal with that spell". in earlier runs I even just fought through the spell; you don't do 0 damage, you do 25% damage, which will still get you through in the end. and in the final fight you can literally just run around and let it wear off or let your NPC friends nuke through it, like I said it found it to be rather anticlimactic because of the assist NPCs)
 

Enjoy the circlejerk.


bye, felicia

Edited by thelee, 01 April 2019 - 07:49 AM.

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#17
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"It's impossible to kill that enemy" *rant* <insert blatantly wrong statements> *rant* <include explicit language>

- Forum shows ways of dealing with the enemy and explains why statements are wrong

"You can only do it overleveled and with metagaming" <insert wrong statements>

- Forum shows how you can totally do it without metagaming and overleveling and explains again why statements are wrong.

"Eh whatever I will not react to your valid points. You are fanboys and cirlce jerks!"


I leave it to the objective reader to decide who's the jerk...


Edited by Boeroer, 02 April 2019 - 02:16 AM.

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#18
Phenomenum

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This guy reminded me some old video

 

This is what happening, when you can't defeat Neriscyrlas)

 

I don't know german at all, but i'm imagening, that he screams: "Damn, why his AR is so **** in' high?!"


Edited by Phenomenum, 01 April 2019 - 09:58 AM.


#19
asnjas

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Is he picking up the pieces of his broken keyboard or his shattered childhood?

#20
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Well... disliking the whole DLC and considering it a waste because of one boss fight seems strange. But OP already seems to be out from the thread.

Yet, I remember that I didn't like that fight in my previous playthrough either.
Although that was because I jumped into it having zero metagame knowledge about BoW, and with a party that was created during v1.2 before the release of DLCs. And that party was not ready for such HP bloat (6600hp) at all, and had means to overcome AR only vs vanilla enemies (with +2 extra via potions, and +4 via Rust Armor scrolls if enemy has low Fortitude/Resolve for those to stick) but could hardly deal with Dracolich' armor. I still downed Neryscirlas, but it was only on the 3rd try and the fight lasted a whooping 15 minutes (on normal speed, with pauses), which is very long by my standards and denotes a BIG issue with that party being suboptimal for the task; and indeed it was, because I literally auto-attacked the thing to death, with my cipher and priest spell damage dealers not casting a thing, because it was resulting in less effective dps than swinging battle axes.

Now though, knowing this encounter mechanics and the boss' AR, HP and defenses in advance, I can build a party that will have a much easier time and will likely be able to aim for a sub 3 min fight time. And tbh that's a whole different level of satisfaction.


P.S. Mildly interesting: on my second attempt, I've went for the interrupt route. Stripped Neryscirlas of all concentration levels being ready to interrupt it's Safeguard, but when the dragon gets to 50%hp and starts casting it, BAM it has it's concentration layers restored plus I have 2 characters mid-recovery. And after Aloth missed twice in a row with Arcane Dampener and I've remembered that emergency AD scrolls I carry no longer benefit from Perception... I was like: naah, reload, battle axes it is then.

Edited by MaxQuest, 01 April 2019 - 11:15 PM.





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