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10 hours ago, Crucis said:

AL, In POE2, you're there because Berath wants you to discover what Eothas is doing, and then later to stop him from destroying The Wheel.   How you get from the start of the story to its end is entirely up to the player.  What would be more boring to me would be a game where the story was nothing more than a straight line from start to end, sort of like the IWD games.

Anyways, I think that a problem that games like this have is that if the designers make the storyline too obvious it gets boring fast.  And OTOH, if they bury it in mystery too deeply, some players may get confused easily and not know what to do next to progress the story.  And I don't think that there's any easy answer here.

I've played the game many times. I know why Berath required a herald. I just don't see the reason for the Watcher being this herald. She could have picked the village idiot with the same results.

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7 hours ago, AeonsLegend said:

Well you're definitely entitled to your opinion. My opinion is that the watcher story was done in POE1 and the watcher had no point in returning for POE2. You're saying Berath revived the watcher because he was the hero of the hollowborn crisis. I call BS.

The watcher has proven him/herself already, can see dead people (which is more relevant than you make it out to be) and is aware of the god's true nature. Also Eothas is willing to listen to this particular watcher at least a little. Look what happens if you destroy his belief in kith at the end.

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9 minutes ago, SchroedsCat said:

The watcher has proven him/herself already, can see dead people (which is more relevant than you make it out to be) and is aware of the god's true nature. Also Eothas is willing to listen to this particular watcher at least a little. Look what happens if you destroy his belief in kith at the end.

Any Watcher or possibly even Cipher could have done the job. I also don't recall the need for being a watcher at all in the key points of the story. It's a gimmick. Like I said the Watcher isn't personally invested in the story and Berath could've picked anyone else.

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Not invested? How about the personal investment of having their castle stepped on, a sizeable chunk of their soul ripped out and, down the road, the destruction of the wheel?

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3 hours ago, SchroedsCat said:

Not invested? How about the personal investment of having their castle stepped on, a sizeable chunk of their soul ripped out and, down the road, the destruction of the wheel?

And how much of that is played out in the story? It doesn't because getting your house destroyed isn't a good drive for an epic story. When you're revived, do you at all feel you're not a person? How much of the soul are we missing? Not enough for us to care about it.

Epic story: someone destroys your house, we're now going to save the world! Woohoo!

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, AeonsLegend said:

Epic story: someone destroys your house, we're now going to save the world! Woohoo!

That is not the story. It's more like: Eothas killed you, Berath revived you and forces you to follow Eothas in order to find out what he wants - or you will die.

You just left out the "do this or you'll die" part. Quite significant part if you ask for motivation I'd say. 

Edér also says that they got you on the Defiant because the farther away Eothas got the worse your condition. 

50 minutes ago, AeonsLegend said:

How much of the soul are we missing? Not enough for us to care about it.

If we measure the power of one's soul in character levels then Eoths took 93,75% of your soul when he crushed Caed Nua. Sounds like enough to care about. 

I guess players would have cared more if the whole Watcher thing would have been like a mini-class with a seperate ability tree on its own. And instead of leveling up that tree by XP you would have leveld that up by talking to Eothas and getting back parts of your soul. So it's not only meanngful for the character but also the player (even the powergamer). 

 

Edited by Boeroer
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1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

That is not the story. It's more like: Eothas killed you, Berath revived you and forces you to follow Eothas in order to find out what he wants - or you will die.

You just left out the "do this or you'll die" part. Quite significant part if you ask for motivation I'd say. 

Yea I get that. but that's only relevant because Berath revived you. It was her choice, not ours. She could have picked anyone else. The fact that Eothas kills you imo doesn't drive the story at all. There's no quest for vengeance, no compelling force. Nothing.

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

If we measure the power of one's soul in character levels then Eoths took 93,75% of your soul when he crushed Caed Nua. Sounds like enough to care about. 

I guess players would have cared more if the whole Watcher thing would have been like a mini-class with a seperate ability tree on its own. And instead of leveling up that tree by XP you would have leveld that up by talking to Eothas and getting back parts of your soul. So it's not only meanngful for the character but also the player (even the powergamer). 

 

2 things wrong with that anlysis.

  1. You gain back this strength tenfold before even going to Hasongo. What part of this soul lacking sounds important?
  2. I don't think the level reset has anything to do with the lack of soul at all. The reason is because everyone's level is reset. Even those that didn't get their soul taken like Aloth and Eder. 

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Posted (edited)

That wasn't an analysis, only a possible in-game explanation.

Of course the real reason for lvl 1 has not much to do with the story. Only that it's more interesting to play from lvl 1 to 20 instead of 16 to 30 (or something similar, fighting Megabosses all day to keep encounters interesting). 

But one could argue that you start as a realtive weakling again because Eothas sucked up the biggest part of your soul. And as Eothas states himself: "I can't give back your soul yet, for I still have use for its great power."

Gaining levels before getting parts of your soul back is a normal process. Souls grow more potent with proper experience as we know from PoE1. So it is to expected that the part of your soul that was left with you can grow again without Eothas.

Nevertheless: it would have been nice to really "feel" (as a player), that you just got back a big chunk of your "old and already powerful" soul. As I suggested above: like to tie this Watcher/lost soul thing to real mechanical advancement like Watcher-levels or so.

Taht might have led to more perceived investment and motivation. Most players like it if they get something cool - like for example a new Watcher level where they could pick a new (good) ability on their own - not some per-rest stuff that's predefined by dialogue options.

You get a bit of that with Gift from the Machine and Effigy's Resentment (when you get them back - if you had them in PoE in the first place) - but in my opinion that's too weak to really get players excited.

Edited by Boeroer

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Posted (edited)
On 5/9/2020 at 6:56 AM, AeonsLegend said:

Yea I get that. but that's only relevant because Berath revived you. It was her choice, not ours. She could have picked anyone else. The fact that Eothas kills you imo doesn't drive the story at all. There's no quest for vengeance, no compelling force. Nothing.

2 things wrong with that anlysis.

  1. You gain back this strength tenfold before even going to Hasongo. What part of this soul lacking sounds important?
  2. I don't think the level reset has anything to do with the lack of soul at all. The reason is because everyone's level is reset. Even those that didn't get their soul taken like Aloth and Eder. 

I'm pretty sure Eothas actually says something like "I still have need of your soul but i can give you this much at least"  not tenfold.

 

Losing your castle, people you lived with, and most of your soul.  Is quite the motivation.  In POE you are tracking Thaos because he awakened your soul.  I'd say those are quite close as far as wanting answers.  I understand what you are trying to say, and i agree with it to a degree.  However, you are acting like if a monster destroyed your house and took most of your soul, you would just go back to sleep.

 

Berath chose the Watcher because he is tied to Eothas, already knows about the true nature of gods, has motivation(whether you think its good motivation, its still more motivation than anyone else), and is probably the only "world saver" that Berath had to choose from. 

 

OH YA.  companions.  I really doubt we will see durance as a companion.  There are endings where he sets himself on fire.  Would be weird to cut out a character from game 3, for not finishing the quest in game 1.  I know you can technically have any of the characters die, but not just from failing their quest.

 

Eder will be back most likely.  He's your canon BFF. 

Maybe we will get another sibling from Maia/Kana.   I get the feeling we will see Rauatai if we get a POE3.  There are lots of opportunities with the Adra storms stopping in Rauatai.  Land that was uninhabitable now ripe for the picking. 

San Palleginna maybe.  Aloth maybe.  Though honestly I could do without both of those two.  So difficult.

Edited by Theonlygarby

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4 hours ago, Theonlygarby said:

I'm pretty sure Eothas actually says something like "I still have need of your soul but i can give you this much at least"  not tenfold.

 

Losing your castle, people you lived with, and most of your soul.  Is quite the motivation.  In POE you are tracking Thaos because he awakened your soul.  I'd say those are quite close as far as wanting answers.  I understand what you are trying to say, and i agree with it to a degree.  However, you are acting like if a monster destroyed your house and took most of your soul, you would just go back to sleep.

Where's the revenge story then? Where's the rush after him to get your soul back? At what part of the story do we feel bad about losing our castle? I think it's mentioned once or twice as an afterthought. And as I mentioned before it doesn't "feel" like part of our soul is missing at all. In fact you are stronger than you were in PoE1 way before you meet Eothas. I'm not talking about myself going to sleep. I'm talking about the watcher. The story and world is set up in such a way that it seems the MC simply does not care about any of it. And if the MC doesn't care, then I don't care either. Simple as that.

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17 minutes ago, AeonsLegend said:

Where's the revenge story then? Where's the rush after him to get your soul back? At what part of the story do we feel bad about losing our castle? I think it's mentioned once or twice as an afterthought. And as I mentioned before it doesn't "feel" like part of our soul is missing at all. In fact you are stronger than you were in PoE1 way before you meet Eothas. I'm not talking about myself going to sleep. I'm talking about the watcher. The story and world is set up in such a way that it seems the MC simply does not care about any of it. And if the MC doesn't care, then I don't care either. Simple as that.

The no revenge is true.  Though it's hard to get revenge on a god that plans to destroy himself.  To be honest the first time I played POE1 I didn't care about the main story until late in the game.  I was more enjoying the world and story.  Deadfire suffers from the open world problem most open games have.  New Vegas made the main plot secondary to the world, so it worked there.... However, I can't think of many open world games that have a strong narrative.  I do think it seems quite silly doing all the side quests given the circumstances.  Though personally I am just as motivated by finding Eothas as i was finding Thanos.  Only difference is that getting to Thanos, felt more natural than getting to Eothas. 

 

I think if they made a reason you couldn't get to Eothas aside from "not high enough level yet so its probably not a good idea" That issue wouldn't be an issue.  I disagree that its the fault of the story though.  It's more the fault of being to go anywhere, at any time.

 

There are lots of dialog options that say "he smashed my castle" or "He must be stopped" or "Berath is forcing me to do this"... The world has a ton of good side stories, so if you dont like the main mission then play into it with the "Berath is making me".  However, the motivation was never an issue for me.  Only that avoiding the main mission seemed unnatural.

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On 5/8/2020 at 4:27 AM, AeonsLegend said:

Any Watcher or possibly even Cipher could have done the job. I also don't recall the need for being a watcher at all in the key points of the story. It's a gimmick. Like I said the Watcher isn't personally invested in the story and Berath could've picked anyone else.

The Watcher is invested because he/she is forced to at the very least.  You can choose to have your soul sent back to the wheel in the first conversation with Berath.  By choosing to live, the watcher is automatically personally invested.  You only know Eothas is going to Ashen Maw because you are a watcher.  You talk to him twice with your watcher powers through the adra.

 

The major flaw in your argument is that you say any watcher could do it, but what makes that new watcher any more invested than the main Watcher?  This new watcher would be less invested as he/she didn't have her/his soul taken. 

Also the timing of the watchers death completely lines up with Eothas needing to be followed.  You are dead so Berath has control over your soul.  They would have to wait for some other watcher to die so they could hold their soul ransom.  Not to mention the other watchers you meet arent exactly impressive.

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The fact that Eothas has part of your soul has nothing to do with the discovery of Ukaizo. I don't think the MC needs to be even a watcher to do the things necessary for the main conclusion. Because all we do is chase after something and then enter Ukaizo. Something that anyone with the correct ship can do. After that the only real impact you have is that you can sway Eothas to be a bit more benevolent. That's it. If the watcher wasn't revived by Berath and Berath would not have revived anyone to do her bidding and just stayed passive the story would have evolved much the same. I said this many times before. The discovery of Ukaizo is only a matter of time. The Watcher only speeds it up ever so slightly. And even its discovery has no real impact because Eothas will still do what he intended to do. For all intent and purposes the watchers presence is superfluous.

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Not having an impact on the ending is something that i can understand being annoyed by.  It still doesn't explain why you think The Watcher has no motivation.

Ukaizo is only able to be traveled to because you stop the storms.  Eothas could still get there and he would still smash the wheel.  However, no faction would be able to reach Ukaizo.  You use your watcher abilities to shut down the storms through the adra.

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3 minutes ago, Theonlygarby said:

Not having an impact on the ending is something that i can understand being annoyed by.  It still doesn't explain why you think The Watcher has no motivation.

Ukaizo is only able to be traveled to because you stop the storms.  Eothas could still get there and he would still smash the wheel.  However, no faction would be able to reach Ukaizo.  You use your watcher abilities to shut down the storms through the adra.

Except that reaching ukaizo was only a matter of having the right ship materials... Shutting down the storm is meaningless in the end. I mean the RDC alone have already crafted a submarine to ignore the storm.

So what is the watchers motivation other than Berath forcing him/her to? The fact that the castle was destroyed and an insiginificant part of the soul was taken? I mean... really? I mean the first part would be "revenge". Never saw any of that as an option in the game. The last part would mean that I needed it. But I don't so... what's my motivation again? I mean other than Berath forcing me?

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12 hours ago, AeonsLegend said:

Except that reaching ukaizo was only a matter of having the right ship materials... Shutting down the storm is meaningless in the end. I mean the RDC alone have already crafted a submarine to ignore the storm.

So what is the watchers motivation other than Berath forcing him/her to? The fact that the castle was destroyed and an insiginificant part of the soul was taken? I mean... really? I mean the first part would be "revenge". Never saw any of that as an option in the game. The last part would mean that I needed it. But I don't so... what's my motivation again? I mean other than Berath forcing me?

I think we are kind of arguing in circles here.  I suppose RDC could have made it to Ukaizo.  Though the travel there even after the storms have stopped is dangerous.

 

As far as the motivation goes I think that's just personal opinion.  In POE1 i wasn't motivated to find Thaos.  I can speak to dead people now? cool!  personally I'd rather be able to speak to dead people than have my house destroyed and people close to me killed.  A big part of the world changing was the storms stopping... because they stopped in Rauatai as well.  Making a land that was plagued with storms now calm.  So the Watchers role is not pointless, whether or not you agreed with the motivation.

 

You saying "aside from Berath making me" is just like saying "aside from finding out why my soul was awakened"  you might not like the motivation... does not mean it isnt there.

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I would be motivated if I could do something about it with regards to PoE2. In this sense I couldn't, but it wasn't just that. It's mostly the extremely poor implementation of the Eothas questline. It's almost like Fallout 4 where you have to find your son, but get sidetracked by this immense open world where you can build cities and do other things that are far more interesting than the main plot. Was I motivated to find my son in FO4? Yes for the first 10 minutes... was I motivated to do something about by castle being destroyed and me losing... wait who died again at my castle? Did the MC mourn any of them? At what point do we do something about this? I lost motivation about 10 mins in again.

With PoE1 I got this soul of another person awakening inside my head. Maybe they could have done more about that, but having a different person in your head does make me want to find out what's up with that. Especially if some weirdo with a crown is turning on ancient devices that caused this to happen to me in the first place.

I agree that non of the stories are particularly well implemented, but I found the Thaos story much more enthralling than Eothas. To each his/her own.

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10 hours ago, AeonsLegend said:

I would be motivated if I could do something about it with regards to PoE2. In this sense I couldn't, but it wasn't just that. It's mostly the extremely poor implementation of the Eothas questline. It's almost like Fallout 4 where you have to find your son, but get sidetracked by this immense open world where you can build cities and do other things that are far more interesting than the main plot. Was I motivated to find my son in FO4? Yes for the first 10 minutes... was I motivated to do something about by castle being destroyed and me losing... wait who died again at my castle? Did the MC mourn any of them? At what point do we do something about this? I lost motivation about 10 mins in again.

With PoE1 I got this soul of another person awakening inside my head. Maybe they could have done more about that, but having a different person in your head does make me want to find out what's up with that. Especially if some weirdo with a crown is turning on ancient devices that caused this to happen to me in the first place.

I agree that non of the stories are particularly well implemented, but I found the Thaos story much more enthralling than Eothas. To each his/her own.

Yeah I agree the main questline takes away from the rest of the story.  I think if the game was more linear they could have made sense of the sidetracking.  I enjoyed the side stories enough that i can look past the ignoring of Eothas.  I still think that its a good "middle" episode.  Episode 1 establishes setting and lore.  Episode 2 causes big changes in the world. and HOPEFULLY!!! episode 3 wraps it all up(this saga at least)

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I think also, in the same way that you can encourage Xoti and Eder to get closer, something similar should happen with Vela and Bearn.

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Have I posted on this thread before? Maybe, maybe not.

Honestly, after Deadfire I don't care much to see any of the companions returning - not in the full capacity. Pop up as an NPC, sure, as full companion? I don't much care for it.

I was looking forward to seeing Eder, Aloth and Pallegian in PoE2, but I felt they did more harm to the characters then good. Eder is just there, those he does have nice moments. Aloth and Pal, I felt got really flattened to serve the needs of the game. 

From PoE2 crew, the only thing I would be excited to see, is being able to fight evil Xoti, if she went crazy in PoE2. Other then that, I can't say I would miss any of them. 

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I'd really miss Konstanten's laugh though...

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never understand this obsession with saving the world and becoming a god thing so many rpg players seems to have

or in the case of fnv it was to become warlord by yesman

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26 minutes ago, uuuhhii said:

never understand this obsession with saving the world and becoming a god thing so many rpg players seems to have

or in the case of fnv it was to become warlord by yesman

Try the 80s-90s JRPG video games. They're all about collecting crystals and divine beings and people wanting to destroy the world. Most often to re-create it. I think having some clearly evil person on the other side that wants to destroy everything makes for an easy way for the protagonist to have a goal. 

People in general want to become more than they are. In video games you can do this in many ways even beyond what is possible. Almost in every RPG video game your character becomes something more than what they started out as. And I do not mean just level 99. I don't think it's the players obsession, but more the fueling from game developers that caused this. and you know, people will always want more. So if you could become a warlord in game 1, you must become a god in game 2. This is not player logic, but sales logic.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I'd really miss Konstanten's laugh though...

Oh, I actually completely forgot about sidekicks. They are probably the ones I would like to see back as full companions the most - definitely Rekke if Yezuha were featured in PoE3. As to other three - I felt they were underdeveloped enough, then writers could find place for them. I would love to see Konstanten and Fassina again, in any way, shape or form. 

Edited by Wormerine

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Posted (edited)
On 5/21/2020 at 6:11 AM, AeonsLegend said:

So what is the watchers motivation other than Berath forcing him/her to? The fact that the castle was destroyed and an insiginificant part of the soul was taken? I mean... really? I mean the first part would be "revenge". Never saw any of that as an option in the game. The last part would mean that I needed it. But I don't so...

Why do you keep asking the same question? Every time someone gives you a reason you just hand wave it. Berath doesn't need the Watcher, they're just the best person for the job. They know the true nature of the gods, they've proven that they're capable of great things, and they have a personal stake in it since Eothas literally killed them (waiting for you to claim that's an "insignificant" reason).

And it's not an insignificant part of the Watcher's soul, the implication is that you've been heavily weakened without it. Also there's multiple dialogue options that demonstrate a "vengeful" Watcher.

Quote

what's my motivation again? I mean other than Berath forcing me?

It's an RPG. That's for you to decide, the game gave you plenty of chances to create one for yourself. Berath forcing you, being a goody two-shoes, finding out what Eothas is doing, revenge etc etc.

I have my own complaints about the god awful critical path in POE2, but proper justification for the Watcher has never been one of them. There would be no reason for the gods to hold you in such high esteem otherwise.

Edited by Nyuu

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