Optimizing skills

[Yosharian]

So, I'm building a 5-man custom party and I'm wondering what the best arrangement of skills would be.  I'm asking partially because I know some of the skills were nerfed/changed since I last played the game, but also because I never quite figured out the most optimal way of distributing skills/skill points.

 

1) With respect to consumable-based skills such as Alchemy and Arcana, should each character dabble a little in them, or should one character specialise?

 

2) Again with respect to those consumable-based skills, what is the advantage from maxing those skills?  (as opposed to putting just enough points into them to be able to use the relevant items)

 

3) How useful/important is Sleight Of Hand, really?

 

4) Passive skills: are all of these able to be used effectively by non-Watcher characters?  If I give one of my non-Watcher characters Insight, for example, will that be useful?  Or, are certain Passive skills significantly worse than others, for non-Watcher characters?

 

If you have any other information, suggestions, advice, tips regarding skills, I'd be grateful.

Edited December 28, 2018 by Yosharian

[guildwriter]

1&2) There are some high skill checks in the DLC which require more or less maxed Arcana or Alchemy.  Not required but it makes things easier.  Otherwise I'd say there's little benefit to splitting unless you're doing something like Stealth (which can be at 12 or so, after that you can just dump in something else).  The PLs do help the consumable skills a lot since they generally don't get benefits from many other sources.  

 

3) It's pretty bad unfortunately.  It's nice for flavor dialogue options but actual gameplay is meh.  Pickpocketing explosives onto a target only works on passive or friendly people.  Even the BB that expands the loot tables doesn't do much.  It is necessary in one instance to get Ring of the Marksman, but you only need 7 for that.  Can also pickpocket Deltro's Cage Helm.

 

4) Here's an explanation of how skill assist works in Deadfire.  There are quite a few Watcher only checks in the game but those are usually in specific cutscene sequences.  Normal dialogue benefits from assist most of the time.

 

My Tips:

 

1) Bring someone with high athletics.  It helps avoid gaining extra wounds and in the case of one area, prevents the death of MC causing a game loss.  Whenura Cleft isn't mandatory but it gives access to two nice items.  I hate resting so that's why I value this.

2) Arcana is busted and you can do degenerate things with it.

3) You need to detect the trap on the ground to disarm it usually.  Make sure someone with high Per is with the mechanics person.  Or just memorize where every trap is and carry lots of Luminous Adra potions.

4) Notable skills and item combos (scales with skills) 

• Casità Samelia's Legacy - Intimidate (Gain bonus Deflection)
• Giftbearer's Cloak - History (All Defenses Except Defection)
• Stalker's Patience - Sneak (+Damage against Flanked)
• Chromoprismatic Quarterstaff - Metaphysics (+Damage and Action Speed)
• I Got Lazy Go Google
• Claduh Scalith - Athletics and Metaphysics
• Ruata's Walking Cloak - Survival
• Spearcaster - Arcana
• Ngati's Tusk - Survival
• Mohorā Tanga - Survival

Not exhaustive but a good start.

Edited December 28, 2018 by guildwriter

[Yosharian]

 

1&2) There are some high skill checks in the DLC which require more or less maxed Arcana or Alchemy.  Not required but it makes things easier.  Otherwise I'd say there's little benefit to splitting unless you're doing something like Stealth (which can be at 12 or so, after that you can just dump in something else).  The PLs do help the consumable skills a lot since they generally don't get benefits from many other sources.  

 

3) It's pretty bad unfortunately.  It's nice for flavor dialogue options but actual gameplay is meh.  Pickpocketing explosives onto a target only works on passive or friendly people.  Even the BB that expands the loot tables doesn't do much.  It is necessary in one instance to get Ring of the Marksman, but you only need 7 for that.  Can also pickpocket Deltro's Cage Helm.

 

4) Here's an explanation of how skill assist works in Deadfire.  There are quite a few Watcher only checks in the game but those are usually in specific cutscene sequences.  Normal dialogue benefits from assist most of the time.

 

My Tips:

 

1) Bring someone with high athletics.  It helps avoid gaining extra wounds and in the case of one area, prevents the death of MC causing a game loss.  Whenura Cleft isn't mandatory but it gives access to two nice items.  I hate resting so that's why I value this.

2) Arcana is busted and you can do degenerate things with it.

3) You need to detect the trap on the ground to disarm it usually.  Make sure someone with high Per is with the mechanics person.  Or just memorize where every trap is and carry lots of Luminous Adra potions.

 

 

Thanks.

 

According to the Wiki, you can obtain Ring of the Marksman without Sleight of Hand: 

 

"Queen's Berth: Dropped by Royal Deadfire Company sailors on top of The Wild Mare during A Bigger Fish"

 

This is the skill setup I'm considering:

 

Watcher (melee gish):

- Arcana (to use Avenging Storm)

- Metaphysics (using Chromoprismatic Staff)

 

Trickster tank:

- Athletics (using that belt that grants +1 Second Wind use)

- Diplomacy

 

Ascetic glass cannon:

- Alchemy

- Survival

 

Evoker:

- Explosives

- Insight

 

Templar melee DPS/healer/buffer

- Mechanics

- History (using giftbearer's cloth)

 

So, I'd have the following covered:

 

Active:

Alchemy, Arcana, Athletics, Mechanics, Explosives

Passive:

Diplomacy, History, Insight, Metaphysics, Survival

 

And, I wouldn't have these:

 

Active:

Sleight of Hand, Stealth

Passive:

Bluff, Intimidate, Religion, Streetwise

 

I'm wondering if Explosives is really worth it.  Considering swapping it for Stealth on my Evoker.  Or maybe another Arcana user?

 

Also, I figure that if I desperately need to pass a Bluff check, or something like that, I can always just switch out one of my team for one of Deadfire's Companions, and just use them as a temporary skill check-passer.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Yosharian

[omgFIREBALLS]

I'm wondering if Explosives is really worth it.  Considering swapping it for Stealth on my Evoker.  Or maybe another Arcana user?

 

Do you fancy the idea of throwing bombs? Because as far as skill checks go, I can think of... one Explosives check in total. And it wasn't important.

[Yosharian]

 

I'm wondering if Explosives is really worth it. Considering swapping it for Stealth on my Evoker. Or maybe another Arcana user?

Do you fancy the idea of throwing bombs? Because as far as skill checks go, I can think of... one Explosives check in total. And it wasn't important.

Are bombs useful enough to warrant their use over something like Arcana, which is known to be excellent?

 

I.E. do they do decent damage?

[guildwriter]

Haven't tested using them recently but the numbers at 20 are pretty underwhelming compared to Arcana IIRC.  Again, consumables in general don't benefit from much aside from the PLs gained through the skill.  There are global bonuses like Devotions or Assassin that will interact with them but things like stats will have none.

 

If the rubric is PoTD upscaled I don't reccomend them.

Edited December 29, 2018 by guildwriter

[Yosharian]

Fair enough. Switched to Arcana, then. Also swapped Diplomacy to Intimidate, and Survival to Streetwise. Streetwise is checked more often.

[Yosharian]

Oops double post.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Yosharian

[Kaylon]

Arcana can be strong if you plan to use high level scrolls for some tough fights. However scrolls are expensive and the best ones require rare ingredients - thus you can't expect to use them every fight. Personally I would respec for arcana only if I feel I really need it and put my points in a skill I'm using very often (or if my items benefit from it).

 

Mechanics/athletics/alchemy would be my first picks.

 

PS. High alchemy also allows to use drugs with almost no side effects (alchemy reduces the effects of drugs crash).

[Yosharian]

PS. High alchemy also allows to use drugs with almost no side effects (alchemy reduces the effects of drugs crash).

Can you elaborate?

[Kaylon]

 

PS. High alchemy also allows to use drugs with almost no side effects (alchemy reduces the effects of drugs crash).

Can you elaborate?

 

Example: Whitleaf's drug crash reduces all defenses (except deflection)  by 8 with 1 in alchemy and this penalty will decrease with every point you have in alchemy (I think it will be -2 instead of -8 at 20 alchemy). A nalpazka monk can even have a positive effect for drug crash (+1-2 bonus instead of penalty).

[Frak]

I like explosives. They're useful as debuffs on lower levels (Especially digsite where cinder bombs blind and do fair damage).

Dunno about higher levels, but Eder will use explosives. He's the tank so he's got nothing better to do. 

 

That said, specialize on each char.

[brasilgringo]

I had some fun a while ago with a devoted trickster who used dual spears including the stalkers patience (stacks with stealth) and the survival stacking one, and other +flanked damage items

[Boeroer]

 

 

PS. High alchemy also allows to use drugs with almost no side effects (alchemy reduces the effects of drugs crash).

Can you elaborate?

Example: Whitleaf's drug crash reduces all defenses (except deflection) by 8 with 1 in alchemy and this penalty will decrease with every point you have in alchemy (I think it will be -2 instead of -8 at 20 alchemy). A nalpazka monk can even have a positive effect for drug crash (+1-2 bonus instead of penalty).

It's funny. The "problem" with Nalpasca though is that he has other, more severe disadvantages form a drug crash - so it's not really abusable.

[Pus-in-Boots]

It's funny. The "problem" with Nalpasca though is that he has other, more severe disadvantages form a drug crash - so it's not really abusable.

 

 

Which are?

[Yosharian]

I'm not really interested in drugs, though. I'll probably get something else. Athletics maybe.

[Boeroer]

 

It's funny. The "problem" with Nalpasca though is that he has other, more severe disadvantages form a drug crash - so it's not really abusable.

 

Which are?

On crash Nalpasca can't heal (-100% healing - basically like Enfeebled) and they lose 1 wound every 3 secs.

[brasilgringo]

 

 

It's funny. The "problem" with Nalpasca though is that he has other, more severe disadvantages form a drug crash - so it's not really abusable.

Which are?

On crash Nalpasca can't heal (-100% healing - basically like Enfeebled) and they lose 1 wound every 3 secs.

 

Can't you get out of the crash right away by taking more drugs?

[brasilgringo]

I had some fun a while ago with a devoted trickster who used dual spears including the stalkers patience (stacks with stealth) and the survival stacking one, and other +flanked damage items

Actually I remember this being so much fun that I might do it again, but only in a party.  Not sure how much the stacking of stealth and survival affects the spears' damage at lvl 20+ in the skills, but I remember it being pretty potent.  I ran a variant of the Iron Hammer build that also stacked engagement, which spear helps with.

[Boeroer]

Can't you get out of the crash right away by taking more drugs?

You can. Edited December 30, 2018 by Boeroer

[uuuhhii]

everyone need a few athletics and alchemy

one arcana 15 use the scroll

the companion passive total 16 in each one will be enough

[Yosharian]

everyone need a few athletics and alchemy

one arcana 15 use the scroll

the companion passive total 16 in each one will be enough

There are checks that go over 16, but I get the idea

[uuuhhii]

 

everyone need a few athletics and alchemy

one arcana 15 use the scroll

the companion passive total 16 in each one will be enough

There are checks that go over 16, but I get the idea

 

not for skill check

but total 16 for +6 party support

main character need 18 or 20 with party support for some check

[MaxQuest]

1) With respect to consumable-based skills such as Alchemy and Arcana, should each character dabble a little in them, or should one character specialise?

 

2) Again with respect to those consumable-based skills, what is the advantage from maxing those skills?  (as opposed to putting just enough points into them to be able to use the relevant items)

 

3) How useful/important is Sleight Of Hand, really?

 

4) Passive skills: are all of these able to be used effectively by non-Watcher characters?  If I give one of my non-Watcher characters Insight, for example, will that be useful?  Or, are certain Passive skills significantly worse than others, for non-Watcher characters?

From combat point of view:

 

1). Regarding investing "a little":

 

Some scrolls aren't like the others. In the sense that they don't benefit that much from higher Arcana score. E.g: Withdraw, Circle of Protection, Revive the Fallen. So having just 7 Arcana on 1-2 of your characters is quite enough.

 

As for alchemy - after all the nerfs there is little point to invest into it half-way. I.e. either max it, or don't put any points at all.

 

2). Maxing arcana has the following benefits:

- higher accuracy for Spearcaster

- synergy with Arcane Archer

- higher PL with scrolls. This is especially great for stuff like Scroll of Moonwell, Meteor Shower, Maelstrom and so on. Stuff that gets increased both magnitude and duration.

 

As for Alchemy:

- higher restoration from health potions

- longer potions and drug durations

- lesser drug penalties (as Kaylon already mentioned)

~ more potent poisons. Although their accuracy is still quite low. Plus many of relevant enemies have either high fortitude or immunity vs poison...

 

There is more info on consumable scaling in thelee thread: here.

 

3). Sleight of Hand had no in-combat use for me. As for non-combat: it allows to steal Ring of Marksman without killing those sailors (which although is not hard, but might be undesirable RP wise); Aside from that... there was maybe only one check were I would take SoH dialogue option over alternatives.

 

4). Edit: Passive skills for your party members are useful for:

- skill-assisting for MC during dialogue

- some scripted interactions when you can select 1 party member for the task (but iirc I've seen only Survival and Religion checks)

- also a passive skill is useful for a party member if he has some item that has a property that scale with that skill. Like Giftbearer's Cloak and History.

 

If you have any other information, suggestions, advice, tips regarding skills, I'd be grateful.

Aside from combat use, there are also non-combat skill checks.

Here is the list of such checks for the base game (made by fireundubh).

 

So in order to pass the majority of such checks, Watcher might want to have:

- Alchemy: 0? + 15 (assist)

- Arcana: 10 + 8 (assist)

- Athletics: 7 + 4 (assist)

- Explosives: 0? + 9 (assist)

- Mechanics: 5? + 4 (assist) (note: this doesn't include trap checks)

- Sleight of Hand: 10 + 5 (assist)

- Stealth: 4 + 6 (assist)

 

- Bluff: 13 + 7 (assist)

- Diplomacy: 10 + 7 (assist)

- History: 7 + 10 (assist)

- Insight: 8 + 9 (assist)

- Intimidate: 10 + 8 (assist)

- Metaphysics: 6 + 9 (assist)

- Religion: 12 + 0 (assist)

- Streetwise: 12 + 8 (assist)

- Survival: 6 + 8 (assist)

 

Also it's fitting to remind that skill assists are subject to diminishing returns:

companions total skill -> assist

1 -> 1

2 -> 2

4 -> 3

7 -> 4

11 -> 5

16 -> 6

22 -> 7

29 -> 8

37 -> 9

46 -> 10

Here's the original post by nstgc.

 

If party members have 46 combined history it will assist you with +10.

On the other hand if they have 22 combined history, 16 arcana and 8 religion, it will assist you with +7 history, +6 arcana and +4 religion. That's 17 assist points instead of 10. Meaning that for such checks it's often better to spread companion skill points relatively even, and also take into account the thresholds. In the end it doesn't matter much if companions have 22 or 28 streetwise, since you will get the same +7 assist.

 

----------

 

Additionally, a note can be made about checks in jungle when you can send one character forward for investigation.

It's usually a good idea if he has high survival, high perception and somewhat decent stealth; because the game can check two of these at once.

 

And ofc it's a nice idea to rise mechanics on a frontliner with high PER and decent stealth. Sometimes this party-mechanic can be combined with the scout above.

 

Edit: continuation can be found here.

Edited January 2, 2019 by MaxQuest

[Yosharian]

 

1) With respect to consumable-based skills such as Alchemy and Arcana, should each character dabble a little in them, or should one character specialise?

 

2) Again with respect to those consumable-based skills, what is the advantage from maxing those skills? (as opposed to putting just enough points into them to be able to use the relevant items)

 

3) How useful/important is Sleight Of Hand, really?

 

4) Passive skills: are all of these able to be used effectively by non-Watcher characters? If I give one of my non-Watcher characters Insight, for example, will that be useful? Or, are certain Passive skills significantly worse than others, for non-Watcher characters?

From combat point of view:

 

1). Regarding investing "a little":

 

Some scrolls aren't like the others. In the sense that they don't benefit that much from higher Arcana score. E.g: Withdraw, Circle of Protection, Revive the Fallen. So having just 7 Arcana on 1-2 of your characters is quite enough.

 

As for alchemy - after all the nerfs there is little point to invest into it half-way. I.e. either max it, or don't put any points at all.

 

2). Maxing arcana has the following benefits:

- higher accuracy for Spearcaster

- synergy with Arcane Archer

- higher PL with scrolls. This is especially great for stuff like Scroll of Moonwell, Meteor Shower, Maelstrom and so on. Stuff that gets increased both magnitude and duration.

 

As for Alchemy:

- higher restoration from health potions

- longer potions and drug durations

- lesser drug penalties (as Kaylon already mentioned)

~ more potent poisons. Although their accuracy is still quite low. Plus many of relevant enemies have either high fortitude or immunity vs poison...

 

3). Sleight of Hand had no in-combat use for me. As for non-combat: it allows to steal Ring of Marksman without killing those sailors (which although is not hard, but might be undesirable RP wise); Aside from that... there was maybe only one check were I would take SoH dialogue option over alternatives.

 

4). Passive skills for your party members are only useful in the sense of skill-assist for MC, or if they use some item that has some properties that scale with this skill. Like Giftbearer's Cloak and History.

 

If you have any other information, suggestions, advice, tips regarding skills, I'd be grateful.

Aside from combat use, there are also non-combat skill checks.

Here is the list of such checks for the base game.

 

So in order to pass the majority of such checks, Watcher might want to have:

- Alchemy: 0? + 15 (assist)

- Arcana: 10 + 8 (assist)

- Athletics: 7 + 4 (assist)

- Bluff: 13 + 7 (assist)

- Diplomacy: 10 + 7 (assist)

- History: 7 + 10 (assist)

- Insight: 8 + 9 (assist)

- Intimidate: 10 + 8 (assist)

- Mechanics: 5? + 4 (assist) (note: this doesn't include trap checks)

- Metaphysics: 6 + 9 (assist)

- Religion: 12 + 0 (assist)

- Sleight of Hand: 10 + 5 (assist)

- Stealth: 4 + 6 (assist)

- Streetwise: 12 + 8 (assist)

- Survival: 6 + 8 (assist)

 

Also it's fitting to remind that skill assist is subject to diminishing returns:

companions total skill -> assist

1 -> 1

2 -> 2

4 -> 3

7 -> 4

11 -> 5

16 -> 6

22 -> 7

29 -> 8

37 -> 9

46 -> 10

Here's the original post by nstgc.

 

If party members have 46 combined history it will assist you with +10.

On the other hand if they have 22 combined history, 16 arcana and 8 religion, it will assist you with +7 history, +6 arcana and +4 religion. That's 17 assist points instead of 10. Meaning that for such checks it's often better to spread companion skill points relative even, and additionally take into account the thresholds. In the end it doesn't matter if companions have 22 or 28 streetwise, since you will get the same +7 assist.

 

----------

 

Additionally, a note can be made about checks in jungle when you can send one character forward for investigation.

It's usually a good idea if he has high survival, high perception and somewhat decent stealth; because the game can check two of these at once.

Wait so Companion passive skills cannot be checked at all? They can ONLY assist?

 

That seems odd because i distinctly remember the game allowing me to use other party members to do skill checks...