Theorycrafting Thoughts On New Classes (Patch 4.0 Beta)

[guildwriter]

If you haven't seen the latest beta patch notes here they are.

 

Here are also some images of the skills so far.

 

Some thoughts I've had:

 

How are Arcane Knights not straight busted with Blood Sacrifice?  Can cheap self heal and have replenishing (random) Wizard resources?  It does come down to the damage numbers, but it even has a recovery cost of zero.  I dunno it just seems too easy to fuel with a variety of abilities.

 

At first glance, Debonair is really disappointing.  The base duration of the charm is immense and the guile cost is cheap making it strong, but it's limited to kith only so that limits the profile of the ability significantly.  Personally I think charm is a OP choice to begin with and doesn't really open up much for the rogue from a build/play perspective that it couldn't already do fine or better with a ciper multi.  HOWEVER, there might be an interesting implication if Rougish Charm though doesn't break stealth as it does come with Quiet/Quiet.  Then it gets kinda busted.  Can overcome the penalty with a ranger subclass easily.

 

I don't know if it's losing worth losing engage for being a charm bot though.  I guess if you just use ranged attacks the point is moot.

Edited November 30, 2018 by guildwriter

[brasilgringo]

Ancient Druid built for Spine of Thicket Greent (+3 Plant/Beast PL) looks like it could stack PL very effectively, more if Godlike.

 

I thought Blood Sacrifice / Hellwalker was being thrown around on the forums already as OP, given you potentially generate wounds from the self-damage, and the heal over time would help hellwalker. 

[AndreaColombo]

The Fighter subclass possibly multis very well with Ranger, in order to gain additional bonuses when attacking the same enemy as the animal companion.

 

The Monk subclass is potentially interesting if built around, and of course Priest of Woedica has the Writ spells which are super good.

 

Steel Garrote regenerates Health with melee attacks? Sign me up!

 

Blood Mage's health regen makes it an ideal candidate for Barbarian multis.

[Boeroer]

=====================================================================

Furyshaper

---------------------------------------------------------------------

• Cons:
  • -15 Will (generally, not conditional)
  • -1 to all PL when ward destroyed (see below)
  • you cannot have more than 1 ward active
  • wards count as summons (meaning you can't have a summon active while yopu have a ward)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

• Pros:
  • +10 ACC against all spirits
  • wards' benefical effects also apply to the Furyshaper
  • Gains Shape Ward: Frenzy
    • PL: 1
    • Cost: 1 Rage
    • Cast Time: 3 sec
    • Recovery Time: 4 sec
    • Range: 4 meters
    • Duration: 60 sec
    • Noise: quite
    • Effects: Summons Frenzy Ward
      • +10% Action Speed to all allies in range of the ward (stacks with Frenzy and other speed bonuses like Alacrity)
      • 5 meters radius (I guesstimated)
      • Defenses: -15 (all defenses - yes, they are negative)
      • AR: 0
      • Health: 50
    • Description: Shape a ward on the battlefield that inspires rage in your allies, granting them action speed while the totem persists
    • Testing: The wards look like the wards enemies can put up (which emit Curse of Death and so on). 
  • Gains Shape Ward: Fear
    • PL: 4
    • Cost: 2 Rage
    • Cast Time: 3 sec
    • Recovery Time: 4 sec
    • Range: 4 meters
    • Duration: 30 sec
    • Noise: quite
    • Effects: Summon Fear Ward
      • Terrify roll against Will to all enemies in range of the ward
      • ACC: 30 (only! it doesn't seem to get affected by anything. However terrified enemies have lower will. You can also buff its ACC with direct ACC buffs like Devotions - NOT inspirations; I filed a bug report)
      • 5 meters radius (I guesstimated)
      • Defenses: -15 (all defenses - yes, they are negative)
      • AR: 0
      • Health: 50
    • Description: Shape a ward on the battlefield that invokes horrific visages, terrifying nearby enemies while the totem persists.
  • Gains Shape Ward: Blood
    • PL: 8 (! single class only)
    • Cost: 3 Rage
    • Cast Time: 3 sec
    • Recovery Time: 4 sec
    • Range: 4 meters
    • Duration: 60 sec
    • Noise: quite
    • Effects: Summon Blood Ward
      • Allies in range get +15% draining (=receive health) with all (!) damage they do
      • 5 meters radius (I guesstimated)
      • Defenses: -15 (all defenses - yes, they are negative)
      • AR: 0
      • Health: 50
    • Description: Shape a ward on the battlefield that inspires bloodlust, granting allies health based on the damage they deal.

=====================================================================

 

Ward of Frenzy and Ward of Blood are pretty nice. Ward of Fear would be great if it hadn't such a low ACC - but you can malke it work with Miasma, clubs with modal or something else that lowers will. Then it's very powerful.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Imbue: Missiles and so on of the Arcane Archer has some issues. Blunderbuss omits the additional pellets to prevent multi-triggering the spell - but hand mortars and rod's Blast trigger stuff like FVireball or Death Ring on everybody in the AoE (very OP). In addition Driving FLight also lets you trigger the spells twice. Combine Driving Flight with a hand mortar and use Imbue: Death or Imbue: Fireball and things totally explode.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

What does Forbidden Fist and how much wounds do you gain from expiring negative effects?

[Manveru123]

Imbue: Missiles and so on of the Arcane Archer has some issues. Blunderbuss omits the additional pellets to prevent multi-triggering the spell - but hand mortars and rod's Blast trigger stuff like FVireball or Death Ring on everybody in the AoE (very OP). In addition Driving FLight also lets you trigger the spells twice. Combine Driving Flight with a hand mortar and use Imbue: Death or Imbue: Fireball and things totally explode.

Uhh other than the multi-hit behaviour, does this character actually shoot Death Rings and Fireballs with each shot? That sounds kinda bonkers.

[Graschwar]

If I am correct, I see a synergy between Arcane archer and essence interrupter, since the penalty should not apply, right?!

[hansvedic]

Tactician Fighter + Troubadour Chanter. That is all.

 

EDIT: Now that I look more closely at the the Tactician, it seems perfect for a wizard multiclass with several blinding spells. If you can blind your enemies, then they are flanked, and if all the enemies are flanked, you get BRILLIANT.

Edited November 30, 2018 by hansvedic

[MaxQuest]

Have installed beta before work), and very briefly checked the new subclasses.

 

Bloodmage is really interesting. But:

> +1 PL bonus is not stackable (which is fine I guess)

> it looks like you lose 10-30% of max hp, and get only 1 spellusage. Not to mention that this self-damage can knock you down.

 

The good thing though is that Blood Sacrifice has no use limit, and has 0.8s/0s cast/recovery.

 

---

Furyshaper:

> wards are nice, and Boeroer has wrote that +Action Speed from Frenzy Ward stacks with other speed bonuses. Which is very important. Otherwise it would be... underwhelming to say the least.

> I am wary of long cast/recovery (3s/4s) time though. Is +10% action speed to whole party really worth 7s of doing nothing?

 

---

Psion:

> Telekinetic Burst is nice. Although it's mostly useful vs kith spellcasters. Afaik non-kith don't have limited spell-usages, and have a cooldown instead.

> And Soul Mind is a passive that regenerates your focus (if you haven't been hit for awhile). Do note: it scalled with level (although tooltip doesn't show it):

lvl 1: +1 focus / second

lvl 5: +2 focus / second

lvl 11: +3 focus / second

lvl 19: +4 focus / second

But you lose Soul Whip.

 

From some point of view, it's an interesting subclass, since it allows to make a cipher independent from dealing damage. Someone ranged with dumped might, exclusively focused on buffing or debuffing.

 

And here come a few caveats:

> It's a suboptimal subclass for single-class characters. Since psion can't sustain the spam of higher-costed powers.

> It's also a suboptimal subclass for characters multi-classed with phys damage dealers, since they would have a way better focus generation via Soul Whip.

> It's also a suboptimal subclass for characters multi-classed with spell damage dealers, unless you are ok with using Soul Shock only.

> It's also a suboptimal subclass for frontliner, because passive focus generation stops when hit. If not for that, a melee psion/illusionist with 1h+shield, focused on crowd-control would make a lot of sense...

 

I would also want to point at focus generation speed itself.

At level 1, psion has 7 starting and 30 max focus. That's 21s to reach max focus and 30s to refill it.

At level 20, psion has 55 starting and 220 max focus. That's 41s to reach max focus and 55s to refill it.

So at max level it takes twice longer to reach max focus with Soul Mind, not to mention the increased power cost of the higher powers (10 -> 90)

And also not to mention that a well built ascendant/streetfighter can get to max focus under 6 seconds for comparison.

 

That said, I like Psion concept, but find it weak. Very weak.

 

What does Forbidden Fist and how much wounds do you gain from expiring negative effects?

Forbidden Fist is an attack with your fist that damages and Enfeebles the target. It doesn't matter what weapons you have currently equipped, as it's not a primary of full attack, but it looks like it uses your fist damage.

 

Initial cost is: 0 wounds. But when you attack, you are affected by a stackable Forbidden Curse which:

- increases the FF cost by 1 wound

- increases next FF damage by adding +25% additive damage bonus

- places a small raw dot on you, which also refreshes duration on previous dot stacks on you

 

And lastly: you get 1 wound when a negative effect expires on you (including Forbidden Curse)

 

Effects: Summons Frenzy Ward

Defenses: -15 (all defenses - yes, they are negative)

Health: 50

They are kinda inconsistent.

In my game, Frenzy Ward has -3 in all defenses and 100hp: screenshot

Edited November 30, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

Hm... I added the abilities to Serafen with the console without altering his subclass and other abilities. Maybe that's why?

[Boeroer]

I can't remember all the Rymrgand gear from BoW that does something when you are afflicted. Wouldn't this be perfect for a Forbidden Fist?

Edited November 30, 2018 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

Hm... I added the abilities to Serafen with the console without altering his subclass and other abilities. Maybe that's why?

Dunno)

 

I can't remember all the Rymrgand gear from BoW that does something when you are afflicted. Wouldn't this be perfect for a Forbidden Fist?

I remember there was something, but don't remember what exactly neither. Might check during weekend

 

Atm, I see 4 directions to explore with Forbidden Fist:

v1. reduce effect duration to zero (if possible), via:

> Strand of Favor (amulet): -15% hostile effect duration.

> Ring of the Solitary Wanderer: When there are no allies nearby, gain Self: -35% Hostile effect duration.

> Clarity of Agony: -5s and -50% hostile effects duration, for 20s.

> Mohora Wraps: -30%

> Svef: -25%

> Resolve

This way monk will be able to spam FF non-stop. Although dps-wise, that's not even that great. But it has a nice synergy with Rooting Pain.

 

v2. reduce raw damage taken, via:

> Voidward (ring): -35% Raw Damage taken

> Copperhead's Helm: -20% Damage taken from spells

> Protective Eothasian Charm: At <25% Health, restores +5 Health per 3 sec over 15 sec and reduces damage taken by -??% for 12 sec

> and is there anything else?

The idea is that monk won't die from the curse dot. But still, unless monk gets affected by some other hostile effects, he'll be able to use only 1 FF every 10-12s.

 

v3. maximize dot damage taken, and use Pain Link. Although:

- the problem might be staying alive (unless you have lots of heals, or perhaps equip the monk with Deltro's plate and let a Fury hit him?)

- and I don't know if Pain Link will be damaging enemies, if monk is under effect of Barring Deaths Door.

 

v4. reduce effect duration to almost zero, and let some team member affect the monk with a periodic affliction. First thing that comes to mind is chillfog or a berserker/wizard with repulsive vissage. But I'm sure there could be even better variants.

 

At first glance, Debonair is really disappointing. The base duration of the charm is immense and the guile cost is cheap making it strong, but it's limited to kith only so that limits the profile of the ability significantly.

I would also add that starting with v1.2.0 Charm is breaking from any damage from the new allies. So it can be quite unreliable. Especially if an AI-controlled companion used an AoE DoT before charming, or non-FoE AoE after charming.

 

And because of charm breaking, that "significant Hit to Crit against Charmed targets." better be... significant.

Edited December 17, 2018 by MaxQuest

[guildwriter]

I can't remember all the Rymrgand gear from BoW that does something when you are afflicted. Wouldn't this be perfect for a Forbidden Fist?

 

Here are screens of the soulbound gear from BoW that give bonuses if you have afflictions.  Some decent bonuses there.  

Edited November 30, 2018 by guildwriter

[Dr <3]

Yo, nice to see you all are good. Really want to try new paladin+ chanter. Maybe my "vampire knight" build will finally becoe functional, after many failing attempts...

Paladin leech+ chanter phrase that gives sicken in aoe+ old siec leeching phrase ( you will need troubadour for that) could do the trick. Anybody knows if there is a leeching weapon in game apart from concelhaut staff?

[Saito Hikari]

If I am correct, I see a synergy between Arcane archer and essence interrupter, since the penalty should not apply, right?!

 

I will test this soon.

 

In fact, I plan on replaying the game as an Ascendant Cipher/Arcane Archer Ranger now.

 

There's a lot of theorycrafting with that combination that relies on specific weapons, though. Notably whether or not Frostseeker is exempt from the accuracy penalty since it has (very minor) frost damage attached to its attacks, whether all of its attacks trigger Arcane Archer's effects, and whether the critical damage AoE applies its effects as well. I would probably assume no, though. (I don't care if Frostseeker isn't optimal, it still has one of the most impressive attack animations I've seen in any cRPG.)

 

I'd imagine that at the very least, Essence Interrupter will be exempt from the penalty.

 

I also do wonder if the bonus damage inflicted by Arcane Archer's skills also contribute towards building the Cipher's resource, and if Soul Whip boosts the damage of Arcane Archer's skills. Since the effects are delivered through full attacks, I would assume they do.

 

EDIT: Okay, I can confirm that currently, Arcane Archer's skills don't contribute towards focus generation, and they also aren't boosted by Soul Whip. (Or at least Imbue: Missiles doesn't.) Mildly disappointing.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Saito Hikari

[brasilgringo]

Imbue: Missiles and so on of the Arcane Archer has some issues. Blunderbuss omits the additional pellets to prevent multi-triggering the spell - but hand mortars and rod's Blast trigger stuff like FVireball or Death Ring on everybody in the AoE (very OP). In addition Driving FLight also lets you trigger the spells twice. Combine Driving Flight with a hand mortar and use Imbue: Death or Imbue: Fireball and things totally explode.

Nerf incoming in 5 .... 4..... 3.....

[Enoch]

Yo, nice to see you all are good. Really want to try new paladin+ chanter. Maybe my "vampire knight" build will finally becoe functional, after many failing attempts...

Paladin leech+ chanter phrase that gives sicken in aoe+ old siec leeching phrase ( you will need troubadour for that) could do the trick. Anybody knows if there is a leeching weapon in game apart from concelhaut staff?

I don't know about a weapon, but there are some options that provide some healing when an enemy is killed.  (E.g., as a pet's party-wide effect.) 

[guildwriter]

 

Yo, nice to see you all are good. Really want to try new paladin+ chanter. Maybe my "vampire knight" build will finally becoe functional, after many failing attempts...

Paladin leech+ chanter phrase that gives sicken in aoe+ old siec leeching phrase ( you will need troubadour for that) could do the trick. Anybody knows if there is a leeching weapon in game apart from concelhaut staff?

I don't know about a weapon, but there are some options that provide some healing when an enemy is killed.  (E.g., as a pet's party-wide effect.) 

 

 

Sanguine Greatsword provides a small amount of healing on crit.  The Twin Eels heals on kill.  The spell Concelhaut's Draining Touch also heals (and apparently phantoms will spawn with it as well if you cast it while the attack is active).

 

Those are what I can think of off the top of my head.  

[DozingDragon]

The fully upgraded Slayer's Claw also provides self-healing after killing an enemy.

Edited November 30, 2018 by DozingDragon

[Takkik]

In my opinion Blood mage & tactician are the big winners. First they address one of my biggest grip in deadfire : limited resources that force you to auto attack / spam the most cost efficiency ability. Second they offer good opportunities for multiclassing/combo.

 

Tactician fit with pretty much all classes. Synergy with abilities that interrupt (and aoe weapons for multiple hits) and the brilliant tactician allow to generate resource for your other class. The class promote crown control instead of dmg.

 

Blood mage is the only wizard subclass that interest me and don't limit your spell casting. Combo with anything that can heal you/reduce the dmg. The only draw back, it's too random. The dmg you take depend of the spell level, but since it's random restoring a level 7-9 spell don't have the same implication than a level 1. Dying because of bad luck isn't really interesting. The class need to promote taking risk, not playing casino.

Dev could implement Blood sacrifice as a spell for each level (with a precise amount of dmg) so you can choose wich level you restore. If randomness is an important point for the dev. create 3 abilities :

Blood Sacrifice I : restore a random spell of level 1-3

Blood Sacrifice II : lvl 4-6

BS III : lvl 7-9

With for each the range of dmg you can take. That give you more control, let you take controled risks and still have a part of luck.

[TheWeaver]

For Blood mage I would have preferred a mechanism more similar to DragonAge -- basically the option to cast using health as your resource pool.  So make it a modal which, when active, costs you some amount of health per spell (more for higher level, can be a range if randomness is important) and then lets you cast any spells you want.  The net effect is the same, but the current implementation feels a bit clunky (maybe its the best they can do given the available mechanics).  Still like the class overall.  Not sure about the whole "have lower defenses against bloodied foes" thing (does the fact that they are bleeding all over distract you or something).

 

In general though , I like most of these, at least in concept.

Edited November 30, 2018 by TheWeaver

[guildwriter]

I think Tactician/Trickster could be quite potent.  Enervating Terror to lock mobs into place around you and then smoke veil and hit with something like Oathbreakers using Clear Out and Mob Stance and watch things explode around you.  Can swap to a different weapon set and then focus on regaining resources as necessary.  Trickster no longer has to worry about running out of defensive resources as much and has decent self heal options if damage goes through.  Use Crippling Strike as a cheap interrupt or Knockdown.  

 

Overall I agree that Tactician paired with any limited resource class is probably a great option.

 

Need to see the numbers on what the negative effects on Tactician are though to see.  The minus Penetration could be an issue on PotD upscaled depending on how much it is.

[Saito Hikari]

If I am correct, I see a synergy between Arcane archer and essence interrupter, since the penalty should not apply, right?!

 

Okay, so I can answer this now.

 

For the time being, I've noticed that Essence Interrupter appears to be completely exempt from Arcane Archer's bonuses and penalties. I imagine this is intentional, as the player has no real way to control whether or not Essence Interrupter decides to use electricity damage or piercing damage. My next order of business is to determine if Frostseeker behaves the same way, as Frostseeker has (minor) frost damage attached to every auto no matter what.

 

I already tested to see if the bonus/penalty doesn't apply to auto attacks, and Arcane Archer's -5 accuracy penalty does apply to auto attacks with a regular bow.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Saito Hikari

[AndreaColombo]

As of this patch, Frostseeker should have the Frost keyword. I would expect it to benefit from Arcane Archer's bonuses and not suffer from the penalties.