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It's a well known fact that Tim Cain invented the atomic bomb.

FOOL! Tim Cain IS the Atomic Bomb!!!

 

 

 

Bioshock inspired certainly, but it's an original IP.

I wouldn't call it even Bioshock inspired. It's Fallout and Arcanum inspired new IP as they've previously.

Agreed. They may possibly share some similar art styles but BioShock didn't invent them
Agreed, just as Fallout wasn't the first retro-post apocalyptic video game either.

 

I think people just want it to be a "real" Fallout 3 as in isometric and crpg with that rockabilly vibe but I'm hoping it's a bit more sci-fi and more action oriented. It's been a while since Obsidian has given us a more modern rpg. Let's hope it's that instead of anything like the original Fallouts.

 

 

 

 

In less than a week, we shall see... Though it would be funny if it was just a 5 second teaser with the game's name and no gamelay or details to talk about. We would then just discuss if the title sounded "Fallout enough" or not :p

Edited by SonicMage117

Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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Alex Scokel said on Twitter that Obsidian would be stupid to try to compete with Prey (when people asked if the game is inspired by/related to Bioshock). Maybe that was a joke - but in my opinion a better hint than that vague and rather baseless internet article that some incorrigible factclaimer called "evidence"... ;)


Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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Indeed, considering the same person would also deny that the art atyle of the pictures is clearly Bioshock-ish but let's not mention that is evidence since someone else said it, it's okay :lol:

 

But I don't think Prey was very Bioshock, played it and see more System Shock than Bioshock. Bioshock is pretty much it's own thing and Bioshock: Infinite is so unique that there's nothing like it in the industry.

 

So we see here, that there are many things to complain about but all has been rationalized under sacred oath of being, therefore when such an amalogy is presented by the some public relations or community/commrcial management, one can assume that was just that. Also, I didn't think either of the Prey games were anything to compete against, since the mechanics in Prey are too unique to clone in their own right, surely the publisher wouldn't be shallow enough to view two First Person sci-fi rpg's as cannibalizing, that would make sense - especially because Prey 2 hasn't even been announced.


Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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Indeed, considering the same person would also deny that the art atyle of the pictures is clearly Bioshock-ish but let's not mention that is evidence since someone else said it, it's okay :lol:

 

But I don't think Prey was very Bioshock, played it and see more System Shock than Bioshock. Bioshock is pretty much it's own thing and Bioshock: Infinite is so unique that there's nothing like it in the industry.

 

So we see here, that there are many things to complain about but all has been rationalized under sacred oath of being, therefore when such an amalogy is presented by the some public relations or community/commrcial management, one can assume that was just that. Also, I didn't think either of the Prey games were anything to compete against, since the mechanics in Prey are too unique to clone in their own right, surely the publisher wouldn't be shallow enough to view two First Person sci-fi rpg's as cannibalizing, that would make sense - especially because Prey 2 hasn't even been announced.

 

In case it's me you're talking about - I never said the art didn't look Bioshock-ish, only that I thought it very unlikely that the game is related to, or even a spiritual successor of, Bioshock.  But that doesn't mean they can't be aesthetically similar.

 

I also don't think it will be like Bioshock, gameplay wise.  Or like Prey.  Both Prey and Bioshock are spiritual successors of System Shock, and are generally considered to be immersive sims (or 451 games), rather than RPGs.

 

Nor am I positing that the game will be like Fallout, aesthetically.  It may well have a look that is very similar to Bioshock Infinite...who knows?  At the moment I'm expecting something inspired by HG Wells' "The First Men on the Moon" and CS Lewis' "Out of the Silent Planet".  But what I'm expecting from the gameplay is something similar to what Cain and Boyarsky have done when they've worked together before.

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Immersive sims range quite a bit though. I don't consider Bioshock one, thought it's inspired, it's really a proper FPS in the vein of Half-life. But If you had to, it and Prey would be on the FPS side. Deus Ex, the game the term was coined for by Warren Spectre in the game's post-mordem, is much heavier on rpg-elements. As is Vampire:TMB. Dishonored and Thief are much more oriented on stealth.

 

The trend in the genre is to have a pre-designed character and the theme of being locked in somewhere that is hostile, or infiltrating some place you aren't supposed to be. Based on what little I know of Project Indiana, it using Unreal 4, being the passion project of Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky, Tim saying it would appeal to Fallout fans, Obsidian already having done numerous 3rd-person infinity-like RTwP iso-rpgs. My thought was that Indiana was probably going to have a gameplay loop much like an immersive sim, but buck a lot of the trends most of those games have. To essentially be a modern successor to the mechanics of VTMB. Something to push the rpg elements further, a world with plenty of friendly and neutral npcs. Of course if this game will have guns, that means free-aim tactical shooting. I know Cyberpunk 2077 is basically a bit of everything from heavy pnp-rpg systems to full action FPS wall running and close melee. I don't imagine Indiana being as ambitious in combat, nor as fast actioned as that. But I could see it being rather environmentally tactical with an emphasis on dialogue interactions.

 

For some reason I just don't think this will be a party based game, but I could be totally wrong. I'm expect an AI companion being more likely. If it is a party based game, I would hope it was 3rd Person over the shoulder with some sort of RTwP system. I really don't want a 3rd person turn-based game like The Bureau XCom. I would actually be disappointed if it was. Otherwise I'm open minded, even if pulling for something specific in mind. And yeah, I've said it before but I feel a golden age of science fiction mixed with a space race era science fiction as the thematic roots. The Bioshock & Fallout comparison really is just coming from the reality of what advertising was for many years in the early days of Madison Ave. New IP, likely sci-fi, probably called The Outer Worlds, guns, obviously retro. I guess we'll find out Thurday who is most correct.

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It wasn't you. It was the person who posted the pics on the thread :)

 

It would be interesting if Cthulhu mythology is involved, I remember how cleverly Layers Of Fear implementated Cthulhu and that made The Shining expereince even more tangible to the sense.

 

Not long now. It's all happenin!

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Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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Do you have the link to this?  I am interested in listening to this interview.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/92420-tim-cain-at-reboot-develop-2017-building-a-better-rpg-seven-mistakes-to-avoid/?hl=%2Btim+%2Bcain

 

 

Thanks!

 

Followed with... I am suddenly much LESS excited for this game.  Pretty much every single thing he said... I disagree with.  I will wait to see what is said in the announcement... but... damn, now I am not sure at all if I will like this.  I had literally got my hopes up that it would be Arcanum in space... and now that seems VERY unlikely...

 

 

I think people misinterpret a lot of what Tim says in this talk, thinking that what's he's talking about is Bethesda-esque streamlining (ie: removing features from a game to simplify it for novice players).  But I don't think he's talking about streamlining.  He's talking about making the game more intuitive for novice players, which is something I can totally get behind.

 

(Then again, maybe I'm the one misinterpreting him.)

 

EDIT: Just saw that Tim himself commented in that original thread saying pretty much what I just said.

 

am thinking there weren't all that much misunderstanding.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/92420-tim-cain-at-reboot-develop-2017-building-a-better-rpg-seven-mistakes-to-avoid/?p=1908891

 

personal, we agree with cain 'bout flattening the learning curve and making initial character development choices more intuitive.  sure, some o' the "hardcore" folks overreacted to what were misrepresented as a generalized effort by cain to be dumbing-down crpgs.  such slippery slope nonsense shows up frequent on message boards and is not least 'bit surprising to witness.  triangles and adjectives as the first two o' the seven seals o' a crpg apocalypse?

 

*snort*

 

converse, there is a tendency 'mongst the cult o' cain to reimagine any cain statement as mana from on high.  listen to disciples o' cain defend some o' the more unbalanced aspects o' special, or fallout outdoorsman skill. comical.

 

personal, we didn't feel confused by cain.  didn't agree with some o' cain, as you might recognize from our linked response, but am not gonna claim ignorance.

 

cain speakings left us ambivalent.  conflicted.  we liked fallout much. didn't like the troika games we played, and cain were largely responsible for poe skills mechanic, which we thought were a particular meh portion o' that title. nevertheless, we like obsidian games in general.  ambivalent. conflicted.

 

gonna wait for game release and reviews from a few people we trust 'fore we purchase a cain-obsidian-microsoft title... regardless o' anything we learn 'bout the development.

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Was looking back to the previous art, and for some reason it reminded me of A Trip to the Moon

 

 

 

 

I just wanted to say that video's been up for 12 years

Edited by Cpl Halsbart

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Immersive sims range quite a bit though. I don't consider Bioshock one, thought it's inspired, it's really a proper FPS in the vein of Half-life. But If you had to, it and Prey would be on the FPS side. Deus Ex, the game the term was coined for by Warren Spectre in the game's post-mordem, is much heavier on rpg-elements. As is Vampire:TMB. Dishonored and Thief are much more oriented on stealth.

 

Having never played System Shock or the original Deus Ex, I can't claim to be an expert on defining immersive sims, but my general idea was that they were essentially FPS games merged with RPG elements, but that the RPG elements were usually streamlined.  The original Bioshock leaned much more towards being a straightforward shooter, but it still had a lot of RPG elements like the stealth, the inventory management, the various skills, the hacking minigames (and lockingpicking too?), while Bioshock: Infinite shed most of that and probably doesn't qualify as an immersive sim.  Prey, on the other hand, is pretty much impossible to play if you approach it as a shooter, and you need to engage much more with its RPG-like systems.  But neither of those games are full-on RPGs.  They don't feature character creation, or heavy emphasis on character choice (you can make some significant choices in Prey, but nothing on the level of reactivity you get in most of Obsidian's output), nor are there character stats that influence your success or failure at various tasks.

 

I might be splitting hairs.  But I'm guessing that the new game will be what I consider to be a full-on RPG, rather than an immersive sim, just based on what Tim Cain has said in the past.

 

That's not to say I'll be disappointed if the game is nothing like what I'm expecting when it's announced.  I'm just enjoying speculating and making (poorly) educated guesses.

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Yeah, so many games these days manage to build in hybrid systems so I'm never quite sure what all rpg or action or fps is meant to imply unless you see the thing it's being applied to. So it's fun to sort of read between the lines of the little tid bits and clues that we get. Of course Fallout 3, 4 & NV are essentially shooters but also rpgs, they have stealth and lock picking. So is that game not an immersive sim? It would be less fun if those games had no action combat and was purely vats (imo.)

 

I find it hard to believe Project Indiana will be isometric if they aren't using their Pillars engine. I suppose it could be more of a Kotor/NWN/DA:O party style 3D RTwP over-the shoulder / free cam sort of rpg. Honestly those sorts of rpgs seem heavily out of style and I'm not exactly convinced even Obsidian would try to drag those back without some hefty modernization. Solely based on markey risk. And DA:I is kind of a lame "offline mmo" in how it plays, I don't think anyone is trying to emulate that anymore. I'm left with feeling it will be action-oriented but with much deeper rpg systems then we typically see from other immersive sims, or perhaps just a full 3D isomorphic game with strategic controls.

 

Yeah, I just like seeing how much mileage I can get out of speculation before all my questions are put to rest.

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Not fussed about the setting and not fussed about where the camera is. I don't care if it drives like 2D Fallout, 3D Fallout, The Witcher, or Deus Ex. But one thing I feel I'm done with is parties. I want a game based around a solo or near-solo experience, at most with optional companions who would be mostly autonomous, just like in the aforementioned games (and I suspect I'd only keep them around as far as necessary for their quests, and abandon them immediately thereafter).

Edited by Humanoid

L I E S T R O N G
L I V E W R O N G

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Doesn't the Witcher 3 also do the over-the-shoulder thing?  And Assassin's Creed?  It's probably not that far out of style.

 

Personally, I think it'll be first-person with the ability to zoom out to over-the-shoulder.  I'm basing that on absolutely nothing though, just a wild guess.

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Not fussed about the setting and not fussed about where the camera is. I don't care if it drives like 2D Fallout, 3D Fallout, The Witcher, or Deus Ex. But one thing I feel I'm done with is parties. I want a game based around a solo or near-solo experience, at most with optional companions who would be mostly autonomous, just like in the aforementioned games (and I suspect I'd only keep them around as far as necessary for their quests, and abandon them immediately thereafter).

 

I quite like having interesting companions around to talk to, each of whom is a puzzlebox of secrets to solve.  I don't think anybody has ever done it better than Planescape did, though.

 

However, I'm pretty much with you on the parties thing.  If there were some way to do companions without dragging them around everywhere with you, that'd be cool.

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The original Bioshock leaned much more towards being a straightforward shooter, but it still had a lot of RPG elements like the stealth, the inventory management, the various skills, the hacking minigames (and lockingpicking too?), while Bioshock: Infinite shed most of that and probably doesn't qualify as an immersive sim. 

 

 

Immersive sims require the two things in the name- immersiveness and simulation. RPG elements aren't really needed at all, though by their nature RPGs tend to have a lot of the same elements that immersive sims have as well.

 

While it mostly has the immediate elements of immersiveness Bioshock's attempts at simulation are basic. There's no real emergent gameplay, enemies and the environment don't behave with much realism, stealth doesn't work well (largely due to the engine used, to be fair) and, critically, it's pretty much impossible to suspend disbelief of Rapture being a Real Place existing outside of the narrow confines of being a game. That's not because it's set at the bottom of the ocean, it's because it fails in terms of verisimilitude- internal consistency/ realism such that even if you start out accepting that Rapture, plasmids, Big Daddies/ Little Sisters exist they do not make consistent internal sense except as part of a game system.

 

In terms of any Obsidian game being an immersive sim, who knows. FONV was probably closest of their current lot, and from Troika both Arcanum and VtMB had elements of immersive sims. I'd suspect not, immersive sims take a lot of effort for not much reward.

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As an avid immersive sim player, I must clarify myself: I only hope this game resembles those settings as far as art and style go - plus, of course all the clever alternative history/future bits.

I don't want this new IP to be an immersive sim. I assume it will be a deep party-based isometric CRPG, ripe with choices and consequences, which make the replayability sprout through the roof. I don't want an isometric immersive sim, that's all.

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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Hmmmm... Interesting. I've actually never heard of immersive sim as a genre, I know that the devs classify Bioshock as an action/adventure fps sprinkled with rpg elements. It's really no different from Borderlands in that regard.

 

 

 

The question is, what classifies a game genre as "immersive". I like atmospheric walking simulators, Soma had an almost like Bioshock feel. It's one of the most atmospheric games I've ever played, yet not immersive at all and somehow it felt like I was in the game world.

 

I think it all comes down to artists' intentional values and how well their finished vision comes to fruition. By today's standard, some might say that Zelda's older games are "immersive" though, to whatever end may justify it.

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Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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@SonicMage117 A very good point! Yeah, these categories are often blunt and rather off the mark - in the worst cases, even misleading. I was just using an accepted categorization, 

warts and all.

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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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I'm ok with the game not being isometric if it is also not first-person. Open world and AAA are also ok with me. But that it should be an RPG and be party-based are the key elements for me. As much as I agree with the claims of The Witcher 3 being an awesome game, I have yet to play it precisely because it is not party-based. Solo play really bores me; I need companions.

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Sci-fi RPG with powers, please!

 

I don't want to be a normal person with a gun. 

 

Powers will be the spells of this game.

 

We love magic.

We love power.

 

:sorcerer:

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The question is, what classifies a game genre as "immersive". I like atmospheric walking simulators, Soma had an almost like Bioshock feel. It's one of the most atmospheric games I've ever played, yet not immersive at all and somehow it felt like I was in the game world.

 

If you think about it, "RPG" isn't particularly specific either.  We all know what an RPG is, but if you didn't, and you took the label at face value, you'd be forgiven for thinking it could be applied to almost any game.  Surely you're playing a role in Sim City...that of the city planner.  Or playing the role of Doomguy in Doom.  How are those not also role playing games?

 

"Immersive sim" is a bit like that, in that it's applied to a loose-ish collection of games that were inspired by System Shock and Deus Ex, but they're far from being the only games that are immersive or present simulated environments to the player.  Mentally, I tend to define them as being "halfway between FPSs and RPGs", but I'm no arbiter of what is or isn't an immersive sim.  Like a lot of these things, the definition is a bit blurry.

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Exactly, we are in the age of gaming where hybrid-ism is a thing so labels and genres given by community are not a thing - they mean nothing. I suppose this is exactly why the community tags games on Steam and GoG with psychological horror or dating sim on a game which has nothing to do with.

 

As for games like Sonic or Mario being a role playing game, well, as said before anyone can try to justify the means as for today's standard but what makes a role playing game os the ability to make choices abd develop the main character. That's also why Red Dead Redemption 2 is being hailed a third-world open person game with more depth than even the most detailed rpg (which is a great example). Character driven games like Sonic and Mario more or less force the player to go in a certain way and that's not sayong the games are linear, it's just a story design choice which marks the difference.


Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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jesus, tumblr xD


I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

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