Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Neat Party Trick: Eternal Ascension mode

Cipher Priest Party

  • Please log in to reply
94 replies to this topic

#21
thelee

thelee

    (9) Sorcerer

  • Members
  • 1379 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

It's a good idea, to make SoT a duration multiplier (x2?) rather then a static additive.

 

I would veto this if I could. Most buff durations are long enough as-is that making SoT a simple multiplier would rarely ever influence anything of meaning. The fact that it's a flat +20s/+10s means that it actually has worth as a PL6 spell in lengthening short-duration-but-powerful effects. (Though I wish it benefited from some sort of PL-scaling.)

 

That being said, the absolute fundamental problem is not mystic, ascendant, BDD, or SoT, it's that Brilliance is a busted inspiration and has been ever since 1.0. Instead of just removing it as a party-wide chanter invocation buff and adding it as single-target special buff the cipher gets access to at PL7, Obsidian should fix Brilliant and bring it in line with the other tier 3 inspirations.

 

edited to add: when the patch notes about Brilliant being added back in dropped in the beta patch notes thread, there were already giddy people like me talking about how ciphers just became brain-dead automatic inclusions into any serious party. It's not like Obsidian couldn't have seen this coming.

 

(Frankly, you don't even need to combine with ascendant to bust ancestor's memory. E.G. just put brilliant on a wizard and selectively keep re-casting level 4 Minoletta's crushing missiles. Unless they removed its interrupt since I last tried this, it basically means you can stunlock any boss in the game (even if they have a lot of concentration shields) while dealing crap tons of damage. brilliant is just fundamentally broken as-is, as this example illustrates you don't even need to metagame it that much to really wreck house.)


Edited by thelee, 17 September 2018 - 09:18 AM.


#22
Dorftek

Dorftek

    (7) Enchanter

  • Members
  • 828 posts
Now now settle down folks. Brilliance is a very OP buff considering that the only other way to regen resources is to spend empower points. Nerfing brilliance because of BDD, salvation and Ascended is wrong tho, also nerfing BDD because of brilliance is equally wrong. Make brilliance regen only PL1 and PL2 abilities? Not that I really care but I'd honestly be suprised if devs don't nerf an immortality combo while they do things like nerfing every proc in the game down into lottery RNG lvls. It's just a question of how severe it will be and what they will target.

#23
AndreaColombo

AndreaColombo

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 5384 posts
  • Location:Budapest (HUN)
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

I'll contribute my .02 safe in the knowledge it'll make no difference. I mostly do it as an exercise in style.

 

Barring Death's Door is essentially a timed God Mode cheat, which in itself is a wonky concept. I don't think there should be any ability that makes you completely unkillable for any length of time in the game, because it obviously lends itself to being abused. That said, if the ability must be there (which by now BDD does, as it's been there since the first game and it would be odd to remove it entirely from the game at this point), the most logical thing to do would be to make its duration not extendable by any means. Obviously this also means it's something that will never happen. I'm calling it now: BDD will remain untouched on the back of this thread.

 

Salvation of Time is good as is. Any change to Salvation of Time on the basis of something else being broken would be an awkward attempt at fixing an issue without actually fixing. It would be like, say, "fixing" Swift Flurry's recursive proc by lowering its proc chance instead of preventing crits generated by it from proccing other crits. Oh, wait... So yeah, I fully expect this spell to be over-nerfed into complete uselessness based on Deadfire's patch track record.

 

Let's consider the combo in question:

 

  • It requires you to have Cipher in your party. The Cipher must take "Ancestor's Memory."
  • It requires you to also have a Priest in your party. The Priest must take "Salvation of Time."
  • If your Cipher is a multi-classed character, "Ancestor's Memory" only becomes available at 19th level, which is pretty late.
  • So either you use a single party slot for a custom Cipher/Priest and get the combo late, or you use two party slots for specific classes with specific picks to executed it earlier ("Ancestor's Memory" becomes available at level 13th for a single-classed Cipher.)

This is not something you can casually, unwittingly run into and it completely trivializes your game. It is something you must know about and willfully seek. If you're willfully seeking it, you know what you're getting into. Complaining about it afterward is hypocritical.

 

If an ability is OP by itself and players can unwittingly pick it and suddenly find their every encounter's been trivialized by their choice, by all means that needs addressing. This was the case with Mob's Stance and Swift Flurry, for example (and even in those cases, the fixes implemented were very awkward workarounds.)

 

If a carefully constructed combination of abilities you couldn't possibly run into unless you were willfully seeking it is powerful, that's clever use of the game's mechanics; the resulting power is your reward. BDD is an exception, because as I mentioned it's practically a glorified God Mode cheat. There's a reason why God Mode is a cheat and not something games normally allow as part of the rules.

 

But really, this isn't even a must pick or a must execute. It's just a fun a little minigame. If you enjoy permanent buffs, you'll go for them and have fun. If you don't, you'll try this once for the kicks, then get bored and stop doing it.


Edited by AndreaColombo, 17 September 2018 - 10:18 AM.

  • Haplok, Prince of Lies, mosspit and 1 other like this

#24
thelee

thelee

    (9) Sorcerer

  • Members
  • 1379 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

Barring Death's Door is essentially a timed God Mode cheat, which in itself is a wonky concept. I don't think there should be any ability that makes you completely unkillable for any length of time in the game, because it obviously lends itself to being abused. That said, if the ability must be there (which by now BDD does, as it's been there since the first game and it would be odd to remove it entirely from the game at this point), the most logical thing to do would be to make its duration not extendable by any means. Obviously this also means it's something that will never happen. I'm calling it now: BDD will remain untouched on the back of this thread.

 

I disagree with this analysis: BDD is just another form of healing. Literally any healing makes you completely unkillable for a length of time in the game, the only difference is that with most heals the length of time is directly connected to how much damage you are taking, whereas with BDD the healing is variable and the length of time is fixed. (To put another way, a Restore for 30 health against someone hitting you for 1 damage every 3 seconds has given you 90 seconds of unkillable immortality, but a fraction of second against a huge enemy army. BDD against an entire army will give you like thousands of effective healing, but against that same guy hitting you for 1 damage every 3 seconds will barely give you double-digits worth of health even with huge intellect or salvation of time.)

 

The problem with this specific combo, again, is Brilliant, not BDD. Brilliant is what lets you take BDD's variable healing effect and turn it into perma-immortality. If you don't have Brilliant inspiration, BDD + Salvation of Time gets you huge amounts of effective healing against dumb AI (a smart human player would just move onto someone else or use Arcane Dampener), but it's not eternal.

 

If this were Magic: The Gathering, this would be like if we were in the depths of Mirrodin's affinity nonsense and people thought that the problem was Ornithopter.


Edited by thelee, 17 September 2018 - 10:23 AM.

  • Dr <3 likes this

#25
AndreaColombo

AndreaColombo

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 5384 posts
  • Location:Budapest (HUN)
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

My point is, being able to execute a combo with which your buffs can be extended indefinitely is fun. Remove Brilliant, and the fun is gone. All this to balance an ability that prevents you from dying.

 

Let's agree to disagree on BDD. Preventing me from being dead regardless of how much damage I'm taking when I only have 1 HP left doesn't count as healing for me.


  • Haplok likes this

#26
thelee

thelee

    (9) Sorcerer

  • Members
  • 1379 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

My point is, being able to execute a combo with which your buffs can be extended indefinitely is fun. Remove Brilliant, and the fun is gone. All this to balance an ability that prevents you from dying.

 

Let's agree to disagree on BDD. Preventing me from being dead regardless of how much damage I'm taking when I only have 1 HP left doesn't count as healing for me.

 

We can agree to disagree on BDD (but mathematically I'm right :)), but my point is that BDD isn't even the only issue. Brilliant breaks anything, because getting back a class resource every tick in a way that you can perfectly metagame is basically a combo winter (like a nuclear winter, except with combos).

 

If one cares about balance, Brilliant needs to be hit, not BDD. If you want to be able to have "fun" by keeping Brilliant as-is, then you have to accept degenerate combos existing.


Edited by thelee, 17 September 2018 - 10:29 AM.


#27
AndreaColombo

AndreaColombo

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 5384 posts
  • Location:Budapest (HUN)
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

If you want to be able to have "fun" by keeping Brilliant as-is, then you have to accept degenerate combos existing.

 

I personally wouldn't mind. I never even pick BDD because the B stands for Boring. :p

 

None of this matters anyway; in a patch or two, all of this will be nerfed so far into the ground it will come back up from the sky.


Edited by AndreaColombo, 17 September 2018 - 10:35 AM.

  • dunehunter and Dr <3 like this

#28
Haplok

Haplok

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 759 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

I don't think Brilliant is the issue. IMO it's linear Salvation of Time. It leads to other broken combos, like 30 second Blade Turning.


Edited by Haplok, 17 September 2018 - 10:40 AM.


#29
1TTFFSSE

1TTFFSSE

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 527 posts

Probably only thing that would be worth considering is making brilliant inspiration work on an adjusted timescale ie higher level resources like spells beyond level 4 regenerate increasingly slower otherwise as we know previously it was very easy to abuse powerful spells at high levels by getting them back beyond using an empower point. 

 

I would hate to see it penalize martial classes who get brilliant and don't regen for example rogue resources even more. 

 

As for this particular combo I agree with AndreaColombo that this is too niche of a use of those three abilities in synergy. Yes you can "duo" any encounter with this setup once you have it but who cares, it is not even a solo run.

 

As for a full party run, it is not really needed even in the most challenging encounters as things generally die faster than the need to use such tactics really.

 

As for ciphers, I do think time parasite needs a slight duration buff now as it was over-nerfed a few patches ago. 



#30
AndreaColombo

AndreaColombo

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 5384 posts
  • Location:Budapest (HUN)
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

I don't think Brilliant is the issue. IMO it's linear Salvation of Time. It leads to other broken combos, like 30 second Blade Turning.

 

In my book, 30s Blade Turning is filed under "Fun."

 

Appreciate that YMMV.

 

(For record, Blade Turning is another ability I never take. I just like the idea of being able to extend my buffs indefinitely.)



#31
thelee

thelee

    (9) Sorcerer

  • Members
  • 1379 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

I don't think Brilliant is the issue. IMO it's linear Salvation of Time. It leads to other broken combos, like 30 second Blade Turning.

 

To me, using up two abilities, one of them a PL6 spell (which arrives at level 15 for multi-class characters, which is basically end-game), should be powerful. It's close to the main reason why Salvation of Time has any worth as it is.

 

Brilliant is what lets you take a powerful effect (BDD or Ascension + Salvation of Time) and turn it into a degenerate combo (perma-immortality+ascension).

 

Having Brilliant scale with the PL of the spell being added is a decent idea, but I suspect it's just fundamentally broken as it is (i'd be perfectly happy with getting PL1 spells back every 3 seconds in certain situations; not to mention I can get a lot of mileage out of the 1 point every 3 seconds you get currently for martial classes). I've followed Magic: The Gathering enough to know that free resources are just incredibly hard to balance meaningfully, to the point that at least in an M:TG setting they basically all get hit with ban hammers or restrictions (or are nerfed to the point they're not even worth using). Even just from a symmetry perspective, do people seriously think that Brilliant is on the same power level as other tier 3 inspirations? Like Swift or Energized? (Maybe it would be closer to other inspirations' power levels if it took more time to regenerate higher-PL spells.)


Edited by thelee, 17 September 2018 - 10:56 AM.


#32
thelee

thelee

    (9) Sorcerer

  • Members
  • 1379 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

 

If you want to be able to have "fun" by keeping Brilliant as-is, then you have to accept degenerate combos existing.

 

I personally wouldn't mind. I never even pick BDD because the B stands for Boring. :p

 

None of this matters anyway; in a patch or two, all of this will be nerfed so far into the ground it will come back up from the sky.

 

 

Normally I think I would agree with you on this... part of the fun of tinkering with complex game systems (and deadfire is way more complicated than poe1) is to find these "opportunities" to exploit some interesting interaction, and there's a lot of metagaming for this particular combo.

 

I think the reason why I come out really hard against Brilliant in particular is for the reason I alluded in previous post: it's just not symmetric. No other tier 3 inspiration is this remotely good. And that really bothers me from a systems perspective ("balance" from a symmetry perspective).


Edited by thelee, 17 September 2018 - 10:55 AM.

  • AndreaColombo likes this

#33
AndreaColombo

AndreaColombo

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 5384 posts
  • Location:Budapest (HUN)
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

I think the reason why I come out really hard against Brilliant in particular is for the reason I alluded in previous post: it's just not symmetric. No other tier 3 inspiration is this remotely good. And that really bothers me from a systems perspective ("balance" from a symmetry perspective).

 

Understood.

 

Personally I think only the DEX and MIG tier-3 inspirations are underwhelming. Buffing them to be a closer match to Brilliant wouldn't be that drastic, IMO, as tier 3 inspirations are generally hard to come by (MIG tier 3 is only for Chanters; DEX tier 3 is only for Wizards and Rogues; RES tier 3 is only given by Paladins for a short duration if they choose a specific talent upgrade; PER tier 3 is only for Fighters.) FWIW I would consider it a better solution than the removal or over-nerfing of Brilliant.

 

Since we're in full disclosure mode, I guess the reason why I'm so adamant in defending this combo is that when I found out about it, I thought I'd finally found a way to enjoy the game again after the over-nerfs salvo of patch 1.1.



#34
mant2si

mant2si

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 680 posts

I agree with @thelee the problem is infinity resources, Obsidian if you read this topic please don't nerf BDD or Salvation of Time  ;) At the end Troubadour can cast His Heart Did Fill With the Light of the Dawn fast enough to make Doom Hammer st-unlock and smash bosses without big problems


Edited by mant2si, 17 September 2018 - 11:53 AM.


#35
AndreaColombo

AndreaColombo

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 5384 posts
  • Location:Budapest (HUN)
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

the problem fun is infinity resources

 

FIFY :p


Edited by AndreaColombo, 17 September 2018 - 11:54 AM.

  • Haplok and mant2si like this

#36
mant2si

mant2si

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 680 posts

 

the problem fun is infinity resources

 

FIFY :p

 

You right, but ins't Chanter + Wizard (Grimoire of Vaporous Wizardry) + Empower not enough ? I assume that with Sasha sabre you will be able to cast 5 - 6 times L9 abilities per fight in row


Edited by mant2si, 17 September 2018 - 12:01 PM.


#37
Metaturtle

Metaturtle

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 211 posts
The combo is a love and hate relationship for me. It's so damn strong, but in the back of my mind I can't stop to think how hard the nerf hammer would hit it considering how it trivializes so many things. Yet here I am with a party that has developed a dependancy on the combo as the backbone to its shenanigans.

Edited by Metaturtle, 17 September 2018 - 12:05 PM.


#38
AndreaColombo

AndreaColombo

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 5384 posts
  • Location:Budapest (HUN)
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

You right, but ins't Chanter + Wizard (Grimoire of Vaporous Wizardry) + Empower not enough ? I assume that with Sasha sabre you will be able to cast 5 - 6 times L9 abilities per fight in row

 

It's not that it isn't enough so much that it isn't my play style. I rarely play Chanters, and never use that particular Grimoire.

 

Admittedly, I could do so much more with this combo than I actually do. All I use it for is to ensure buffs on my main never run out for the duration of a fight. Stuff like Swift Flurry, Champion's Boon, and the like. As I mentioned in another thread, big numbers in my character record are what makes me feel powerful (no matter how many more powerful builds and combinations I could be using) and having all my buffs on all the time reinforces that. Yes, I could be running more powerful characters if I just let go of my obsession for number-crunching—but that's what puts a smile on me when I play. To each their own :)


Edited by AndreaColombo, 17 September 2018 - 12:09 PM.


#39
mosspit

mosspit

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 728 posts
  • Deadfire Backer

I disagree with this analysis: BDD is just another form of healing. Literally any healing makes you completely unkillable for a length of time in the game, the only difference is that with most heals the length of time is directly connected to how much damage you are taking, whereas with BDD the healing is variable and the length of time is fixed. (To put another way, a Restore for 30 health against someone hitting you for 1 damage every 3 seconds has given you 90 seconds of unkillable immortality, but a fraction of second against a huge enemy army. BDD against an entire army will give you like thousands of effective healing, but against that same guy hitting you for 1 damage every 3 seconds will barely give you double-digits worth of health even with huge intellect or salvation of time.)


BDD isn't just another form healing. It imposes a state in which a character cannot fall unconscious regardless of incoming damage. Which mean incoming damage per instance can be infinite and rate of incoming dmg can be infinite per unit time. And it also does not depend on the target's Health Pool.

Honestly, I think healing and BDD are quite different. And I can't really realistically draw a comparison.


the problem fun is infinity resources

 
FIFY :p

You right, but ins't Chanter + Wizard (Grimoire of Vaporous Wizardry) + Empower not enough ? I assume that with Sasha sabre you will be able to cast 5 - 6 times L9 abilities per fight in row


I guess everyone has a preference to which ability should be nerfed based on one's agenda. For me, I prefer Brilliance to BDD as Brilliance gives me an option to do something rather than auto-attacking in long drawn battles. But I don't think the game is balanced for either tbh.
  • AndreaColombo likes this

#40
1TTFFSSE

1TTFFSSE

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 527 posts

brilliant on martial classes is not a problem and quite "balanced" brilliant on stuff like wizard and priest is just asking for trouble in its current implementation. 


  • Dr <3 likes this





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Cipher, Priest, Party

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users