Berserkers vs Monks (opinions)

[1TTFFSSE]

So I am gonna start this topic because I'd like to gather more experiences from players what they think since to me there appear to be several factors that favor berserker over any type of monk.

 

Both classes are very similar and very strong in the current game. In terms of single class Zerkers get the better higher level aoe attacks while monks get inner death which is the best single target nuke in the game? Monk also now gets the fixed dual twin summons which adds versatility since Zerkers can't summon anything.

 

 

Both are "fast" martial classes with a bias towards cleaving/ aoe damage dealing, speed and killing efficiency buffs. They are strong in the same things and generally have the same type of role in a party and mirror each other but do things slightly differently.

Zerker/Barb passives are universal and apply to any type of damage or killing strategies- spells scrolls consumables anything,

while on Monk their passives enhance and favor melee weapons mostly - the extra lashes, extra attacks from swift strikes and finally heartbeat drumming. 

 

In terms of survivability, I actually find Berserker sturdier compared to the monk type (Helwalker) that can potentially dish out the most damage, though a case can be made for Nalpazca monks.

 

And here we come to the big difference for me and why I generally find Barbarian particularly Berserker more efficient (if not better)- On Zerker you have the 1 rage cost Frenzy (which upgrades quite nicely) but even as a level 1 ability pretty much is like two of the monks most essential buffs (Swift Strikes+Tenacious blows) in one ability. Sure the two monk abilities can sometimes do more combined thanks to swift flurry procs but Frenzy gets a lot of stuff done for being one ability that activates instantly. Also Frenzy lasts longer/cast than the monk buffs. 

 

I think the damage abilities and passives - ie. barbaric smash vs stunning surge, blood thirst vs heartbeat drumming kind of equal out. But the self buffs slightly favor the barb due to how they are designed. (This was particularly true when lion's sprint accuracy lasts all combat long but even after the patch it is an instant cast +15 accuracy on any attack you choose). 

 

All in all these two classes seem pretty close to each other and on paper actually, it would appear the monk can do some nasty things with the extra lashes, swift flurry stunning surge and heartbeat drumming. But whenever I ran monks and barbarians in a party the barbs seemed to in the end distance themselves from the monks because the barbs never needed "chance" conditions to trigger damage cascades from crits to cause extra damage - it was always a bonus if they did, but their primary damage  from Frenzy (tenacious) + Blood recovery passives and rage refund from Barbaric Smash on bloodied/near death targets was always more reliable - perhaps the bursts where lower but they could start dealing solid damage faster and once they got going they were a sight to see (frenzied lion sprinted barb dashing around the battlefield and chain eliminating each target triggering no recovery after each killing blow.)

 

[Manveru123]

Why choose when you can have both in one character?

[mant2si]

Huh, I will post my Priest/Monk build today or maybe few days letter, after Lion spirit nerf there no point to use Barbarian :D Monk's much more stable with their +15 int bonus and can apply Flank status and reduce bosses armor

After my  Harbinger of Doom build, updated monk build feel like Breath of fresh air, easy early game, a lot of int bonuses, reduced debuff duration's

Edited September 3, 2018 by mant2si

[1TTFFSSE]

Why choose when you can have both in one character?

It is a strong multi but as I said both classes do very similar things just slightly differently so you are basically "doubling" the same type of attacks/buffs in that case a lot. Like you would use Frenzy and Swift strikes and one buff would I think override the other, at least parts of it. 

[Sire Of The Shadow]

Huh, I will post my Priest/Monk build today or maybe few days letter, after Lion spirit nerf there no point to use Barbarian :D Monk's much more stable with their +15 int bonus and can apply Flank status and reduce bosses armor

 

After my  Harbinger of Doom build, update monk build feel like Breath of fresh air ;D

 

Whats Lion's Spirit?

[1TTFFSSE]

 

Huh, I will post my Priest/Monk build today or maybe few days letter, after Lion spirit nerf there no point to use Barbarian :D Monk's much more stable with their +15 int bonus and can apply Flank status and reduce bosses armor

 

After my  Harbinger of Doom build, update monk build feel like Breath of fresh air ;D

 

Whats Lion's Spirit?

 

He meant Lion's Sprint. It was bugged and still is and will be patched in 2.1. Until now it was a must on a barb because you were getting +15 accuracy for the whole encounter once you activated it. 

[Arngrim7]

I like berserker better. It's fast, hits hard and you only need to pop frenzy once or twice per battle. 

But honestly I really like them together.

My Ravager  (Zerker/Nalpazca) run was pretty fun and some of their abilities mesh somewhat well.

[mant2si]

Do you know that Death Godlike and potion of Ascension give you +7 pen and +95% damage bonus to your fist, It allow me kill magma dragon without pistols ;D

Edited September 3, 2018 by mant2si

[Somnium_Meum]

I think they're pretty equal power-wise, however:

 

• Monk can use melee weapons at distance (4m for standard melee weapons, 8m for reach weapons).
• All Monk's subclasses offer unique gameplay while Barbarian has only 1 unique and 2 "generic" subclasses
• Monk can be used as single class very successfully while Barb has a bit of trouble when single classed.
• When multiclassed, Monk has amazing synergy with most classes while Barb has synergy only with few of them.

[baldurs_gate_2]

 

I think they're pretty equal power-wise, however:

 

• Monk can use melee weapons at distance (4m for standard melee weapons, 8m for reach weapons).
• All Monk's subclasses offer unique gameplay while Barbarian has only 1 unique and 2 "generic" subclasses
• Monk can be used as single class very successfully while Barb has a bit of trouble when single classed.
• When multiclassed, Monk has amazing synergy with most classes while Barb has synergy only with few of them.

 

+You definitely need nemnok's cloak, because you can't see your health bar in frenzy status.

[Sire Of The Shadow]

 

 

Huh, I will post my Priest/Monk build today or maybe few days letter, after Lion spirit nerf there no point to use Barbarian :D Monk's much more stable with their +15 int bonus and can apply Flank status and reduce bosses armor

 

After my Harbinger of Doom build, update monk build feel like Breath of fresh air ;D

Whats Lion's Spirit?

He meant Lion's Sprint. It was bugged and still is and will be patched in 2.1. Until now it was a must on a barb because you were getting +15 accuracy for the whole encounter once you activated it.

Ah, that makes more sense. I don’t think that makes Barbarian any more weak, that’s just fixing a broken ability.

[1TTFFSSE]

 

 

I think they're pretty equal power-wise, however:

 

• Monk can use melee weapons at distance (4m for standard melee weapons, 8m for reach weapons).
• All Monk's subclasses offer unique gameplay while Barbarian has only 1 unique and 2 "generic" subclasses
• Monk can be used as single class very successfully while Barb has a bit of trouble when single classed.
• When multiclassed, Monk has amazing synergy with most classes while Barb has synergy only with few of them.

 

+You definitely need nemnok's cloak, because you can't see your health bar in frenzy status.

 

It is usually not a problem because you set something like second wind (when near death) to high priority in ai, as well as any potions. 

[Somnium_Meum]

 

 

 

I think they're pretty equal power-wise, however:

 

• Monk can use melee weapons at distance (4m for standard melee weapons, 8m for reach weapons).
• All Monk's subclasses offer unique gameplay while Barbarian has only 1 unique and 2 "generic" subclasses
• Monk can be used as single class very successfully while Barb has a bit of trouble when single classed.
• When multiclassed, Monk has amazing synergy with most classes while Barb has synergy only with few of them.

 

+You definitely need nemnok's cloak, because you can't see your health bar in frenzy status.

 

It is usually not a problem because you set something like second wind (when near death) to high priority in ai, as well as any potions. 

 

It's not a problem but it's certainly uncomfortable. Plus the fact you're slowly bleeding health

[Clerith]

Yeah, the classes are pretty comparable. Fast melee classes bringing self Might inspiration buff.

 

Both are good single classes, with Monk being slightly better, imo. As for multiclassing... this is all just in my experience:

 

Wizard - Monk has better synergy with melee Wizard (one of the best combos in the game). Barb works for both melee and evoker Wiz, but both seem B tier to me.

 

Rogue - both combos are strong, Monk is better single target at max level, but otherwise I feel like Barb is slightly better.

 

Ranger - I actually like melee Ranger/Monk. Ranger's bonus Accuracy synergises better with Monk's crit repeat attacks. Ranger/Berserker has a fun rp flavor though, and is a solid melee.

 

Priest - haven't played. I imagine I'd personally go for Barb. I've seen some great results from that combo.

 

Paladin - I like combining an offensive melee class (Barb) with a defensive melee class (Pala). There was that 'burn heretic burn' Votary build pre-nerfs that was amazeballs, but now, Fanatic is probably better.

 

Fighter - Brute is very solid and strong. Brawler used to be like the strongest martial combo pre-nerfs, now it's okay but Barbarian goes better (another offensive + defensive mix).

 

Druid - no idea. B tier all around at first glance. Monk/Shifter is fun but not super strong.

 

Cipher - Helwalker goes really well with Ascendant. Barb for Soulblade. The Monk combo is stronger.

 

Chanter - Barb has more obvious synergies. I like it more.

 

All in all, pretty even spread. 

[Dr <3]

In team they are both good.

In solo monk>>barbarian because you have basically unlimited wounds vs limited barb resources. And whispers in the wind if you go single class.

[L4wlight]

Huh, I will post my Priest/Monk build today or maybe few days letter, after Lion spirit nerf there no point to use Barbarian :D Monk's much more stable with their +15 int bonus and can apply Flank status and reduce bosses armor

 

After my  Harbinger of Doom build, updated monk build feel like Breath of fresh air, easy early game, a lot of int bonuses, reduced debuff duration's

It's a +10 INT bonus. Clarity of Mind and Duality of Mortal Presence do not stack.

[baldurs_gate_2]

To say: Stunning Surge ---> Barbaric Smash

 

With a full attack, you have 2 chances to crit and get the cost of 2 mortification back. For barbaric smash you have to kill the enemy.

[mant2si]

 

Huh, I will post my Priest/Monk build today or maybe few days letter, after Lion spirit nerf there no point to use Barbarian :D Monk's much more stable with their +15 int bonus and can apply Flank status and reduce bosses armor

 

After my  Harbinger of Doom build, updated monk build feel like Breath of fresh air, easy early game, a lot of int bonuses, reduced debuff duration's

It's a +10 INT bonus. Clarity of Mind and Duality of Mortal Presence do not stack.

 

Yeah, you right, but sometimes I just forget about confusion, especially on early game stage :D

Edited September 3, 2018 by mant2si

[Haplok]

 

I think they're pretty equal power-wise, however:

 

• Monk can use melee weapons at distance (4m for standard melee weapons, 8m for reach weapons).

 

Well, at level 19 if multiclassed.

[Somnium_Meum]

 

 

I think they're pretty equal power-wise, however:

 

• Monk can use melee weapons at distance (4m for standard melee weapons, 8m for reach weapons).

 

Well, at level 19 if multiclassed.

 

Sure, but it's extremely strong since it still counts as melee attack for purposes of Monk's abilities. Citzal Lance is absolutely ridiculous with it, you attack at 8m, creating explosions that have chance to proc further hits (explosions). The other upgrade changes Monk into ranged character undefinitely

Edited September 3, 2018 by Somnium_Meum

[Haplok]

... or you can use dual mortars and achieve the same from level ~7. Without time needed to summon a weapon, without time limits. It even works with a monk's Stunnig Blows. Although it won't proc Swift Strikes/Heartbeat. But if you have a Ranger, it will proc Driving Flight - and not at random.

[Boeroer]

Actually you attack at 10.8 m range with Citzal's Spirit Lance + Instruments of Pain. It's a reach weapon and thus has a base range of 1.8 meters. 1.8m * 6 = 10.5m.

 

Lance + Heartbeat+Swift Flurry is better than Driving Flicht + Mortars. Every AoE hit has the chance to proc Swift FLurry or Hearbeat Drumming or both. On average this results in many more additional attacks (with the original AoE damage) than with Driving Flight (1 for Hand Mortar, 2 for Fire in the Hole). Also the damage of the mortarts is lower and gets even reduced further by Driving Flight.

 

Nalpasca/Berserker is an awesome combo by the way. Due to self damage of Frenzy (which doesn't cancel Dance of Death), Enduring Dance and drugs the wounds fly in more quickly than I can spend them. I use Savage Defiance right after Frenzy to counter the high self damage at higher levels. 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Boeroer

[Haplok]

Perhaps better. But mortars are accessible much earlier, don't need prep/cast time and are much safer (prior to level 19). Also there's 2 of them.

Oh and they have crazy synergy with a Streetfighter.

 

Also they target Reflex rather then Deflection - which isn't always an advantage, but is fairly unique and sometimes it is pretty great.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Haplok

[Mocker22]

Actually you attack at 10.8 m range with Citzal's Spirit Lance + Instruments of Pain. It's a reach weapon and thus has a base range of 1.8 meters. 1.8m * 6 = 10.5m.

 

Lance + Heartbeat+Swift Flurry is better than Driving Flicht + Mortars. Every AoE hit has the chance to proc Swift FLurry or Hearbeat Drumming or both. On average this results in many more additional attacks (with the original AoE damage) than with Driving Flight (1 for Hand Mortar, 2 for Fire in the Hole). Also the damage of the mortarts is lower and gets even reduced further by Driving Flight.

 

Nalpasca/Berserker is an awesome combo by the way. Due to self damage of Frenzy (which doesn't cancel Dance of Death), Enduring Dance and drugs the wounds fly in more quickly than I can spend them. I use Savage Defiance right after Frenzy to counter the high self damage at higher levels. 

I haven't personally played sage, and this build is known to be like WTF crazy OP......but worth mentioning it's gonna take some time to get to feeling that good wouldn't it?

[Boeroer]

It takes quite some time, yes. I mean the self buffs + monk are still nice of course. If you want to use a reach weapon from the beginning (like Concelhaut's Staff) it's also a cool setup. You won't get hit that much in melee with a reach weapon so you can afford to wear lighter armor. The staff also drains which makes for some good healing support. And Alacrity can give you speed (moving speed and attack speed) and a consistent source for wounds. As a Helwalker you'll get more dmg with every wound and thus more wounds and so on. Watch out! Concelhaut's Corrosive Siphon is your friend! But still cool (especially later with the enormous +INT-induced AoE of the Lance). Now in the beta patch Eldtrich Aim got buffed to fast cast - so my only issue with the Sage (poor ACC at the beginning of the game) might be gone as well. So all in all it's a nice combo to play.

 

But yeah - the real power spike is once you get Spirit Lance and that takes some time.

 

By the way: a wizard can make a cool duplicate of himself which does great single target dmg: cast Concelhaut's Draining Touch (it summons a fist-like weapon for your main hand which will dissolve after you hit something with it). Now summon Essential Phantom. It will have all your gear including Draining Touch. But on the Phantom it will not go away after a hit. It will stay until the phantom leaves and provides great damage and also draining for the phantom. That way you can have a cool "unarmed" monk-like summon rel. early. Hope this wasn't fixed. I made a bug report long ago but got no answer.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Boeroer