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Petition - Do we want to see the game made harder on POTD on the late levels? Please voice your concern here


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So I completed  the Beast of winter at level 14 but I now have a huge problem. The rest of the game is so easy that i have completely lost interest in playing it. I am level 15 playing on POTD level scaling all upwards. No Blessings and no mods.

 

I estimate that I have about 50 to 60 % of the game left to play. 

 

I have completed:

 

- port maje and islands around port maje

- about 70% of the content in neketaka

- Arkeymrs quest

- Fort Deadlight

- Serafens quest

- All Neketaka bounties

- All Fort Deadlight bounties

- Beast of Winter

 

This is all i have done and the game isnt enjoyable any more because it to easy. Unfortunately I am considering shelving the game untill this is fixed.

 

I am seeing alot of other people saying they have the same issues. Can we all please voice our concerns here so the game is properly balanced on POTD for levels 14 and upwards.

 

 

PS on my last playthough i had the same problem even though i didnt complete Beast of winter. Beast of Winter has just made it far worse IMO.

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Right now im playing berath's challenge and tripple crown mode. Damn it's awesome.There is no save/load(as in tabletop game lol) so  I shoude use my brain at 100% every battle(if i cant escape them) or *You Died*.

Lost Eder and Alot in ship battle and very miss them. ;(

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Couldn't care less about it.

 

I sincerely hope it's on the bottom of their priority list.

 

Rather than trying to balance already existing content for some minority, Please spend resources developing new areas, monsters, story etc and balancing it for us normal players.

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Top priorities as far as I'm concerned:

 

1)fix the damn bugs(did you know right now you can't fight the final boss?!)

 

2)new content

 

3)difficulty

 

I would like Veteran to be more challenging at high levels, but that's stuff that's fairly easy to mod now, and there are already mods out that do it, so if you can't wait for more challenge modes try out the challenge mods!

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I sympathize, but I don't think tweaking POTD is going to help. You can only shove so many monsters into each encounter. The truth is that Deadfire is never going to be difficult with the per-battle abilities and infinite resting. Like Diablo 3, they've made it so convenient that it's sapped the difficulty.

Edited by Heijoushin
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Veteran could use some upscaling as well: normal battles become laughable from level 14, and "hard battles" like

Concelhaut, Jadaferlas

are mildly challenging at best with an unoptimized level 15-16 party. Between a fighter with Charge/Knock down and a Ranger with concussive tranq, most bosses can be made incapable of resistance way too easy. Gorecci street remains the hardest fight in-game, in my opinion.

 

Beast of Winter did better in this regard, though I fear the mechanical changes hinder making the game as difficult as PoE1. But it's definitely a step in the right direction. As S3 is supposedly a combat-centric DLC, I hope they'll revamp the difficulty alongside its release.

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I sympathize, but I don't think tweaking POTD is going to help. You can only shove so many monsters into each encounter. The truth is that Deadfire is never going to be difficult with the per-battle abilities and infinite resting. Like Diablo 3, they've made it so convenient that it's sapped the difficulty.

 

Yep. I also sympathize with the OP, and I'm in an almost identical situation, shelving the game after level ~14. Without a strategic layer of spell loss, ability loss and hitpoint loss, and not having a replacement for those, the game was never capable of producing the layered difficulty of its predecessors. And once you're hitting levels where you have a dozen or more core abilities to burn every battle for every character -- not to mention all the stuff you can acquire from gear -- it's only possible to generate difficulty in the "boss fights". And even then, it isn't easy.

 

Let it be a lesson for future developers. Sometimes the things that players complain about as "tedious" in the game are the parts that allow true challenge to emerge.

 

It also hurts that Obsidian had already abandoned other forms of challenge even in the predecessor. Quests can't be failed. Puzzles are rare and not taxing. Companion management is too easy. Heck, even riddles don't exist. It's fine to make a game where the only hard puzzle is combat, as PoE1 was, since that puzzle was complex and could be difficult. But once you simplify that puzzle, on top of the previous design choices, you have a game without challenge, which makes it hardly a game.

Edited by cokane
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Generating difficulty is easier on fights with set ability usage. You can better plan difficulty knowing what abilities the player has access to each fight. This has been said to death.

 

True challenge can emerge through carefully planned battles. You guys seems to want artificial challenge in the form of supply management mini games.

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Considering you can't fight the final boss and modals are now messed up, I'd prefer to focus on fixing bugs.

 

Plus there is still dialogue wonkiness. If you do quests in different order then intenteded the dialogue is facepalm worthy.

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It also hurts that Obsidian had already abandoned other forms of challenge even in the predecessor. Quests can't be failed. Puzzles are rare and not taxing. Companion management is too easy. Heck, even riddles don't exist. It's fine to make a game where the only hard puzzle is combat, as PoE1 was, since that puzzle was complex and could be difficult. But once you simplify that puzzle, on top of the previous design choices, you have a game without challenge, which makes it hardly a game.

 

 

It's a game for modern players. Modern players don't pay for playing the game, they pay for winning it.

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Vancian =/= per rest.

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I sympathize, but I don't think tweaking POTD is going to help. You can only shove so many monsters into each encounter. The truth is that Deadfire is never going to be difficult with the per-battle abilities and infinite resting. Like Diablo 3, they've made it so convenient that it's sapped the difficulty.

Yep. I also sympathize with the OP, and I'm in an almost identical situation, shelving the game after level ~14. Without a strategic layer of spell loss, ability loss and hitpoint loss, and not having a replacement for those, the game was never capable of producing the layered difficulty of its predecessors. And once you're hitting levels where you have a dozen or more core abilities to burn every battle for every character -- not to mention all the stuff you can acquire from gear -- it's only possible to generate difficulty in the "boss fights". And even then, it isn't easy.

 

Let it be a lesson for future developers. Sometimes the things that players complain about as "tedious" in the game are the parts that allow true challenge to emerge.

I disagree that the problem lies in abilities being per-encounter. Tyranny had a similar system and was generally more difficult than PoE2 and PoE1 IMO.

 

Its entirely possible to create more in-depth and difficult fights with what Obsidian has to work with, without just adding more enemies and increasing health pools.

 

What gives me hope is Fampyrs. I think Dominating Gaze is a bit overdone but it has workarounds and makes fights intricate and challenging. Clearly obsidian is capable of making fights difficult through the creative use of abilities, they just need to do it more.

 

I've never seen an enemy priest use supress affliction on his own allies, or a paladin use aegis of loyalty, or half the other debuff-removers available in the game.

 

Hell Ogre groups were deadly in PoE1 because of insect-swarm, whens the last time an Eoten cast a spell on you?

 

The problem with PoE2 stems not from our increased access to abilities in each encounter, but from the combination of that with a general decrease to enemy use of abilities. Enemies pretty much use offensive abilities, the occasional buff, and on rare occasion a debuff.

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They wouldn't even need to be that advanced, just have them cycle randomly through debuff player/buff allies/cast spells etc.

 

Making everything per-encounter is fine if the encounters themselves are harder. In the game as released that really isn't the case. There's no reason not to have enemies that are able to kill you quickly, especially when you get access to resurrection spells

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Generating difficulty is easier on fights with set ability usage. You can better plan difficulty knowing what abilities the player has access to each fight. This has been said to death.

 

True challenge can emerge through carefully planned battles. You guys seems to want artificial challenge in the form of supply management mini games.

 

Just because it's been said several times, doesn't make it true. Deadfire actually creates a narrower window of fun difficulty for its designers. This makes it harder to have a challenging game, not easier. As the real world evidence shows.

Edited by cokane
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I disagree that the problem lies in abilities being per-encounter. Tyranny had a similar system and was generally more difficult than PoE2 and PoE1 IMO.

 

Its entirely possible to create more in-depth and difficult fights with what Obsidian has to work with, without just adding more enemies and increasing health pools.

 

What gives me hope is Fampyrs. I think Dominating Gaze is a bit overdone but it has workarounds and makes fights intricate and challenging. Clearly obsidian is capable of making fights difficult through the creative use of abilities, they just need to do it more.

 

I've never seen an enemy priest use supress affliction on his own allies, or a paladin use aegis of loyalty, or half the other debuff-removers available in the game.

 

Hell Ogre groups were deadly in PoE1 because of insect-swarm, whens the last time an Eoten cast a spell on you?

 

The problem with PoE2 stems not from our increased access to abilities in each encounter, but from the combination of that with a general decrease to enemy use of abilities. Enemies pretty much use offensive abilities, the occasional buff, and on rare occasion a debuff.

 

 

I can understand this optimistic viewpoint. I think a key line from my original post was "...and not having a replacement for those." They added tools for the party (spells/abilities/full healing every battle) but added no new consequences to balance. Thus stripping out a whole layer of gameplay concern. I do think a more challenging Deadfire can emerge, and I'm likely to revisit the game after all the DLC's come out and give it a go.

 

However, we should not underestimate the problem created by having access to all your spells for every battle. I've said this before several times, but it bears repeating. You cannot have consistently challenging combat *and* diversity of combat under this system. You cannot make the dungeon boss tough without making his preceding minions weak under this system. That kind of variety worked in the BG types and PoE, because the player still had a "reward" for playing those weaker battles as efficiently as possible.

 

This, IMO, is the main reason combat feels easy in Deadfire. The player is only rewarded for being effective up to a certain point in the majority of battles. You don't have to worry about hitpoint loss, spell/ability conservation, so you only have to be just good enough to win every fight. Whereas in Pillars and the BG games, every single bit of efficiency was rewarded by being able to clear out hostile areas on fewer rests, i.e. more rapidly. Ironically, Deadfire's combat system would really only work if every fight was an all-out brawl to the death. But players of these kinds of RPG's are not going to enjoy that monotony, meaning lots of easy fights where you can half-ass your way thru it, at no penalty.

Edited by cokane
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How much is malleable is something I think that needs to be discussed. I mean it's a bit of a crap-shoot when you set out to balance things because what will hinder one person won't do the same for another. Perhaps I'm lobbing air balls here but I was under the impression that most devs don't actually balance games at higher difficulties? They usually tweak things like how much damage an enemy does and so forth and that's about it. Is it truly reasonable to think that a game like this is easier to balance than a first person shooter?

 

Lastly are we all sure that rose tinted glasses aren't making games harder than they actually were in hindsight?

Yes! We have no bananas.

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Yes, upping the later level/game balance is a great idea!!!  Fixing the Xaurip bug would be amazing too, and if they aren't they should be working on POE3 already!!!!

 

On another note, not sure I ever had to fight a boss in POE1 without having all my spells and all my food/potion/etc buffs from resting, but that being said definitely impossible to argue that in theory the game could be easier with having per encounter spell abilities, especially since the game actually is easier.  Interesting though in early game I find myself relying heavily on my Power Level boost to re-up my spells, especially in tough fights so I often get the same feel as POE1- but in late game I can see how this disappears.  Just not sure per level is a huge factor in the game difficulty as they should be able to balance the game regardless - at least in theory.

“How do you 'accidentally' kill a nobleman in his own mansion?"

"With a knife in the chest. Or, rather, a pair of knives in the chest...”

The Final Empire, Mistborn Trilogy

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I concur.  It's better than release, but still trivial somewhere around 14-15.  The challenges don't really help because while Magram's does make it harder, it does so at the expense of the whole tactical element of the game.  Beraths only makes it harder in the first 12 levels or so, when the game is already well tuned.  After that, my guys never die anyway.  (And I don't even "flee" at level 1--I didn't even know you could flee.)

 

I'd like to see something that makes it harder so that I have to pause and work things out more, not less. 

 

But TLDR, yes it's still too easy.

  

 

So I completed  the Beast of winter at level 14 but I now have a huge problem. The rest of the game is so easy that i have completely lost interest in playing it. I am level 15 playing on POTD level scaling all upwards. No Blessings and no mods.

 

I estimate that I have about 50 to 60 % of the game left to play. 

 

I have completed:

 

- port maje and islands around port maje

- about 70% of the content in neketaka

- Arkeymrs quest

- Fort Deadlight

- Serafens quest

- All Neketaka bounties

- All Fort Deadlight bounties

- Beast of Winter

 

This is all i have done and the game isnt enjoyable any more because it to easy. Unfortunately I am considering shelving the game untill this is fixed.

 

I am seeing alot of other people saying they have the same issues. Can we all please voice our concerns here so the game is properly balanced on POTD for levels 14 and upwards.

 

 

PS on my last playthough i had the same problem even though i didnt complete Beast of winter. Beast of Winter has just made it far worse IMO.

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No, because the tweaks always seem to involve bloating hp and armor to add tedium instead of making the combat more tactically challenging. Watching my party graze **** to death isn't very hard, it's just boring. I would instead prefer something like Hardcore Mode in New Vegas that introduces new mechanics to make the game harder, like penalties for not eating or sleeping for the party or something. Or a SCS tier uprgrade to AI.

 

I would also like the game easier in one respect: traps. A trap field can easily kill party members and to my knowledge traps are only detectable by high per characters, so my Eder who specializes in mechanics is useless for spotting a tripwire right in front of him. I suggest giving a chance to avoid injury with defenses and allowing the mechanics skill as well as perception to check for traps.

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"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlshot

"I'm fine with humanity being wiped out" - majestic

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Alot of the balancing problems seem to be focused on Pen vs AR. For example:

 

- As soon as you get Legendary plate for your 2 tanks the game becomes far easier. They need to make legendary armour more rare, you shouldnt be able to just wonder of somewhere and pick it up multiple times. This is one of the big problems i think in why the late game becomes so easy.

 

- The only time i ever have hard fights is when i notice my enemies have high AR. Like literally the only time. This is sad because the game has so many variables and such a wide array of mechanics to utilize but this one mechanic is so strong and plays such an importance that if it overrides all else. 

 

- High PEN weapons are simply better then all other weapons. War hammers and maces fit into this category. The counter argument for this point is that lower PEN weapons will be better on fights where the targets have lower AR and the higher PEN weapons will be worse off. This is the huge problem with this mechanic because those fights where the enemies have low AR are so easy that you just dont need to switch over to other weapons anyway. Your already guaranteed of winning no matter what weapons you use.

 

This is the current problem with the Start of the game / End of game balancing issues where the difficulty drops off

Edited by Teclis23
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No, leave it as it is... I prefer making theme based builds on PoTD like my current Pacifist and Archon playthroughs... and frankly, I'm tired of games reworking the difficulty curve over and over again, for what, a minority of the players base. Anyway Pathfinder is out soon, as is the reworked DOS 2 :D I'll play them for a while and come back when POE 2 has freshened up in my mind.

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- The only time i ever have hard fights is when i notice my enemies have high AR. Like literally the only time. This is sad because the game has so many variables and such a wide array of mechanics to utilize but this one mechanic is so strong and plays such an importance that if it overrides all else. 

 

- High PEN weapons are simply better then all other weapons. War hammers and maces fit into this category. The counter argument for this point is that lower PEN weapons will be better on fights where the targets have lower AR and the higher PEN weapons will be worse off. This is the huge problem with this mechanic because those fights where the enemies have low AR are so easy that you just dont need to switch over to other weapons anyway. Your already guaranteed of winning no matter what weapons you use.

 

Obsidian needs to design enemies better - add difficult enemies with low AR.

 

Besides, players will switch weapons even if it's unnecessary because they love DPS.

Vancian =/= per rest.

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All they need to do is improve the scaling range. The reason the game gets easy after about level 14+ is that the game only "upscales" any encounter a max of six levels and most of the game is level 8-10 or so base because it's open world and you could hit pretty much anything as early as 8th level. Improving the scaling range should solve a lot of these issues.

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