Single class should be more statistically superior than multi

[Elizer]

A defense bonus stays potent during the whole game. It can't get weaker unless you substract. Every point of defense has increasing returns. So if it's "incredibly strong" in the early game it stays being incredibly strong until the end of the game.

 

Blood Thirst is not doing -50% recovery on kill but removes recovery completely for the next action.

 

Rangers get Whirling Strikes and Twin Shots at PL 8 which both are pretty good.

I suspect the deflection debuff of Distracting Training stacks. So if you boost your Animal Companion's defenses that could be pretty awesome, but I didn't test it.

Well the problem with whirling strikes is that your only a ranger. This class specializes in ranged attacks, i don't see a reason to run into enemies to use this when you can just tumble away and spam something more useful.

[Amigo345]

Guys from crate entertainment basically invented the system PoE uses. They introduced it in their first game - Titan Quest and then in their second game - Grim Dawn. They never called it multiclassing. They actually call it what it is - dual classing.

http://www.grimdawn.com/guide/character/masteries.php

Edited August 25, 2018 by Amentep
Removed personal comments, direct posts to ideas, not people

[asnjas]

Lol

 

Isn't bg2 multi classing exactly what poe 2 uses? You advance simultaneously in two classes. Isn't poe series closely tied to bg2.

 

Isn't dual classing in bg2 where you actually stop advancing in class altogether and begin advancing in another?

 

So poe is closely tied to bg2. Poe more than likely used bg2 as the model. Bg2 called it mutliclass. Bg2 came well before grim dawn. I think we are accurately calling it multi class.

[Elric Galad]

Please stop feeding the troll.

Regenerating wilders are annoying enough when you don't feed them.

Edited August 25, 2018 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Faith and conviction has diminishing returns. 12 def bonus at level 3 is more of a benefit to you then 15 def at level 15

Faith and Conviction is a passive that scales without the use of further ability points. Therefore there can't be any diminishing returns - returns for what? You don't invest anything so there's no return in the first place. You are not spending one single ability point.

 

Sure, it starts high, giving you a flat defense bonus, and the scaling doesn't continue at that pace - but that would be crazily overpowered. Because every single added point of defense does more for your survival than the one before. +12 at the start of the game is as useful and powerful as +12 at the end of the game. And the higher your defenses are the more useful every additional point of defense is. It's math. Since your defenses, compared to enemies' accuracy, are most likely higher in the end game than in the early game. Thus the +12 has even more impact than before without any scaling. The starting bonus of Faith and Conviction can never diminish (unless you lower the numbers). And now every point of scaling it receives impacts even more - it's kind of a dual increasing impact without spending a single additional point of whatever.

 

Claiming that Faith and Conviction in its current form has "diminishing returns" shows that you didn't fully grasp the mechanics and math of attack resolution.

 

If Sneak Attack would stay at 30% and not scale - that would be an example of diminishing impact because added MIG, other abilities and enchantments will lower the overall contribution of Sneak Attack to damage (percentage-wise).

Edited August 25, 2018 by Boeroer

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

A defense bonus stays potent during the whole game. It can't get weaker unless you substract. Every point of defense has increasing returns. So if it's "incredibly strong" in the early game it stays being incredibly strong until the end of the game.

 

Theoretically at least there's a maximum cap on defensive bonus utility -- if you're just always being missed anyway, additional points of defense don't add much. 

[Boeroer]

Of course. Once you reach 100% miss every added point does nothing. The most impactful point (mathematically) is the one that gets you to 100%.

 

@Teclis23: if I would be ranting your cheeks would turn red.

[Elizer]

Of course. Once you reach 100% miss every added point does nothing. The most impactful point (mathematically) is the one that gets you to 100%.

 

@Teclis23: if I would be ranting your cheeks would turn red.

Really? theres a cap for deflection where you will dodge all attacks? May i get the numbers? I would love to have enemies not hit me in my solo on POTD. Feels like they have a 100% hit chance with 50% chance to crit.

[Boeroer]

It depends on the enemy's accuracy. There is no hard cap.

 

But if you look at the mechanics of attack resolution you can see how high your defense has to be so that an enemy with a certain accuracy can only miss.

 

Attack resolution is ACC - defense + d100 roll = attack quality. Attack qualities are: 0-30 = miss, 31-50 = graze, 51-100 = hit and 101+ = crit.

 

Now if the enemy has 50 ACC and his best dice roll is 100 you need a defense of 120 to make sure he always misses: 50 - 120 + 100 = 30 (miss).

 

If the enemy has 100 accuracy you need a defense of 170. And so on.

 

This why an Arcane Knight with Wizard's Double can be fun: the spell lasts forever as long as you don't get hit. If the +40 lift you over that line (that an enemy can't hit you) the spell will not go away.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Boeroer

[peardox]

Hello thanks for the flame + troll

 

Anyway, to answer this question properly

 

Everything is based on random numbers

 

Obsidian decided to make it fairly impossible to create a REALLY bad character

 

Still everything uses dice rolls

I'd go into this further but Boeroar punked me a few days ago

 

Feel free to down-vote bloke

[Boeroer]

 

 

 

Hello thanks for the flame + troll 

[...]

I'd go into this further but Boeroar punked me a few days ago

Huh? I have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe you misread something that I wrote? I can't remember even answering to you for the last couple of days. What do you mean? I'm serious - I can't remember. 

 

Edit: if you mean this:

 

I like it that my requested mod for a visible queue of commands is queued .

I actually liked it. I know that the request was very complicated and didn't expect it to happen - and if it would, then not so soon. I just liked the coincidential wordplay that my queue got queued. Seemed to be so fitting.

 

Other than that I have really zilch ideas what you could possibly mean.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Amentep
Removed reference to a removed post

[Boeroer]

Well the problem with whirling strikes is that your only a ranger. This class specializes in ranged attacks, i don't see a reason to run into enemies to use this when you can just tumble away and spam something more useful.

Most abilites of the ranger work in melee combat. There's even a subclass (Stalker) that leans more towards melee combat (more armor, more defenses when sticking together with your melee pet). So a single class melee ranger is viable - and for those Whirling Strikes is very good. It not only does a Full Attack on all enemies in range (dual wielding prefered) but also adds a raw DoT effect that is quite potent. Of course it's not that useful for a ranger who specializes in ranged weapons.

[Haplok]

It seems to me that the main problem in multiclass being better than singleclass, is because multi performs better in both the specialized roles which should primarily be the domain of single-classes, and perform especially good in dual roles, which is what multiclasses are usually meant for.

 

Of course, it's good that multi-classing offers to combine class passives/skills in a way that synergizes in unexpected and highly effective ways; the problem is that the higher power level, larger amount of class resources, and lvl 8-9 abilities/passives don't provide a similar boost to most single classes. Wizard and Monk are the only classes I can currently think of that are generally seen as being just as good single-classed as multi-classed; the others either have all their good skills handed out at earlier power levels, or fail to provide PL 8-9 skills that'd be preferable over a multiclass.

 

I think you've missed Barbarian, Ascendant Cipher, Priest, Druid and Chanter from your list of classes that majorly benefit from staying pure.

Like some have wrote before, the major benefit for staying pure is not only access to final ability tiers, but also much earlier access to strong PL VI-VII abilities. Blood Thirst at level 13 rather then 19. Amplified Wave and Disintegration at level 11 rather then 16. And so on...

 

The only 3 classes I would always multiclass are Fighter, Rogue and Paladin.

 

So actually for MOST classes there are solid trade-offs to this decision.

[Amentep]

I have deleted posts again.  If you wish to start a psychoanalysis group, please do so elsewhere.  Otherwise post about what members post about, not about the members. 

 

And if you think you are achieving something on the internet by starting or continuing 'grudges' by making personal attacks here you are sorely mistaken.

[Teclis23]

 

It seems to me that the main problem in multiclass being better than singleclass, is because multi performs better in both the specialized roles which should primarily be the domain of single-classes, and perform especially good in dual roles, which is what multiclasses are usually meant for.

 

Of course, it's good that multi-classing offers to combine class passives/skills in a way that synergizes in unexpected and highly effective ways; the problem is that the higher power level, larger amount of class resources, and lvl 8-9 abilities/passives don't provide a similar boost to most single classes. Wizard and Monk are the only classes I can currently think of that are generally seen as being just as good single-classed as multi-classed; the others either have all their good skills handed out at earlier power levels, or fail to provide PL 8-9 skills that'd be preferable over a multiclass.

 

I think you've missed Barbarian, Ascendant Cipher, Priest, Druid and Chanter from your list of classes that majorly benefit from staying pure.

Like some have wrote before, the major benefit for staying pure is not only access to final ability tiers, but also much earlier access to strong PL VI-VII abilities. Blood Thirst at level 13 rather then 19. Amplified Wave and Disintegration at level 11 rather then 16. And so on...

 

The only 3 classes I would always multiclass are Fighter, Rogue and Paladin.

 

So actually for MOST classes there are solid trade-offs to this decision.

Wizzies are good for multiclass because all there self buffs are really fast cast

 

And yes it is a myth that multiclass is more powerful then single class. I think they both are very close in terms of power.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Teclis23

[SamOftheUels]

Well, single-class Wizard, Priest and Druid are already stronger than their multiclass variations

Monk is also very powerful single-class

 

Hey dude, I haven't played Pillars 2 for awhile now - How exactly is Single Class Druid better than  a multi?

[Prince of Lies]

 

Well, single-class Wizard, Priest and Druid are already stronger than their multiclass variations

Monk is also very powerful single-class

 

Hey dude, I haven't played Pillars 2 for awhile now - How exactly is Single Class Druid better than  a multi?

 

 

That depends entirely on how you multi them and what subclass(es) you choose.

 

For single Druid, regardless of subclass, I personally like PL8 spells like Entropy and Avenging Storm. PL9 Maelstrom is fun as well with different damage types/different targeted defenses.