Pathfinder Kingmaker is bigger then Deadfire

[Mamoulian War]

Well, from the reading, the Bosses are exactly the same as in PnP. In PnP they are most of the time designed as EPIC encounter level in rules. Which means, if the module designer expects you to be level 4 during the encounter, the designed CR (Challenge Rating) is +4. That means, the bossfight would be "normal difficulty" if your party would be level 8.

 

As an example, last module we played in PnP, our party of 5 was level 8. Against us was invisible Boss (Alchemist/Rouge Level 12), who just sneaked to the party in invisibility, and due to his initiative, he killed 2 party members and KOed another 2 before we were able to act. He had in his full round action 3 attacks, and all of them with Sneak Attack. Thankfully our healer survived, so the KOed members were back on feet during next three rounds. The only person able to fight, was my Monk tank, which had such big Flatfooted AC, that even if I got attacked with all three attacks, Boss missed most of the time, and I was able to tank him, while the other two, were standing up and tried to deal him some damage. I ended up with 15/56 HP, and his head tied to my belt in the end, but we had to find Cleric in the city, to cast Raise Dead on the other two party members, which cost us one adamantine dagger and some gems, to be able to afford his services. Thankfully he had some nice equipment on himself, to make up for it, and the feeling of our party after defeating this boss was indeed EPIC

 

Pathfinder boss encounters are designed to be ****ing hard, and the game just makes good job of transferring that feeling into itself.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Mamoulian War

[Vitalis]

Well, from the reading, the Bosses are exactly the same as in PnP. In PnP they are most of the time designed as EPIC encounter level in rules. Which means, if the module designer expects you to be level 4 during the encounter, the designed CR (Challenge Rating) is +4. That means, the bossfight would be "normal difficulty" if your party would be level 8.

 

As an example, last module we played in PnP, our party of 5 was level 8. Against us was invisible Boss (Alchemist/Rouge Level 12), who just sneaked to the party in invisibility, and due to his initiative, he killed 2 party members and KOed another 2 before we were able to act. He had in his full round action 3 attacks, and all of them with Sneak Attack. Thankfully our healer survived, so the KOed members were back on feet during next three rounds. The only person able to fight, was my Monk tank, which had such big Flatfooted AC, that even if I got attacked with all three attacks, Boss missed most of the time, and I was able to tank him, while the other two, were standing up and tried to deal him some damage. I ended up with 15/56 HP, and his head tied to my belt in the end, but we had to find Cleric in the city, to cast Raise Dead on the other two party members, which cost us one adamantine dagger and some gems, to be able to afford his services. Thankfully he had some nice equipment on himself, to make up for it, and the feeling of our party after defeating this boss was indeed EPIC

 

Pathfinder boss encounters are designed to be ****ing hard, and the game just makes good job of transferring that feeling into itself.

Of course it's designed to be hard, but recent games in the genre have conditioned us to think that it's "easy".

[Manveru123]

And it turns out the boss fights are complete nonse. There goes my enjoyment of the game.

 

Had to cheese the stag lord fight. There was one guy in it who did 1d10+17. And enough attack bonus to hit my Half-Plate + 1, tower shield specialist on a 10. Did I say 1 guy? Make that two. Two other similarly strong guys (the only one of which I checked could hit the tank at an 11 and the last is titular Stag Lord). Then about 3 or 4 regular enemies. Make sure you don't aggro any of the other bandits in the camp, if you pull in one group, you could bring 9 bandits on your head. They can mow you down themselves.

 

I did beat the fight. Using MMO tactics of pulling individual guys and testing their group aggro ranges. And also savescumming to get an Owlbear to tank for me, which it did with no problem.

 

On Normal, this battle did not leave me with the satisfaction of a battle hard won. A bunch of the groups around the boss battle area (which I ended up leaving alive) have enemies in it who are just as tough as those boss guys. I savescummed several times because they mowed my Valerie down before I could kill them. I was making camps in the middle of the enemy camp while a bunch of enemies still lived in it. Just to get the healing I needed to get back in the fight.

 

It felt like I was a good 2 levels or more short of being supposed to fight that. But I'd done every single quest available.

 

I've seen talk about how it's justified that they're giving +17! bonuses to the enemies because we're a 6 member party instead of a 4 and players are smarter than the computer. But they're also doubling and tripling the numbers of enemies.

That's because you went there with brute strength, when this game offers so much more.. Let's use Stag Lord as an example.

 

If your Alingment is Good, you can convince a bandit chick and her goons to help you in the fight. You can convince Stag Lord's right hand to betray him and help you out (Diplomacy, or one of the Knowledge checks, possibly something else too?). You can use Nature Lore to calm down the Owlbear and have it fight with you too. I mean come on I'm sure you can do at least one of these right? 2 and 3 are easy to do on any plathrough, and if you do all 3, it results in a very epic boss fight!

 

One other thing. I saw some guy on Reddit attempting to re-create Core rules with difficulty sliders, and it turns out that even if you play with "normal" enemies, you're actually playing hard mode!

Edited October 4, 2018 by Manveru123

[Gorth]

Guys for the love of Almighty.

R-O-G-U-E!

Rouge is a color!

 

 

As an old Warhammer 40k and Rogue Trader player, there was no end to the make-up peddlers in space. A rouge trader in every star system...

[Manveru123]

And then there's "duel wield" and "wizzard". This used to annoy me but at this point I just think that people will never learn.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Manveru123

[Chilloutman]

not everyone is native english you know?

[Manveru123]

And yet somehow you don't really see people mistaking "beach" with.. you know what :D

[Slotharingia]

Sounds like I should disable autoupdates as soon as I got home on log in to steam xD

Not sure that solves anything, since even if the hotfixes create new bugs, they fix existing ones meaning you are as likely to get a gameover bug whether it updates or not xD

 

Also, I did find a way to completely stop the autoupdates on Skyrim, but it was a pain in the ass  xD

Edited October 4, 2018 by Slotharingia

[Raithe]

Hm.

 

Well Amiri is back. Sort of. Not fully functioning as a party member, but at least it recognises her as one for the most part.

I've managed to be crowned King, so that's something.

You do get a decent amount of time to start focusing on the kingdom side of the issues, but now I've had the slight glitch of upgrading both Divine and Arcane to the next rank, getting the message that the respective advisors want to see me in the throne room... but those events aren't triggering. So now I can't upgrade either until that gets resolved.

 

Also, I have to say, choosing any non-evil, non-chaotic response to any event relating to Nok-Nok makes you feel like you're kicking a puppy.  Goblin doing sad-eyes and the whimpering "I just wanted to be a Big Hero." - His version of being a Big Hero involving putting up shrines to Lamashtu around your capital city, encouraging goblins to come live in the capital, or pointing drunk hill giants looking for mates in your direction...

[Tale]

If your Alingment is Good, you can convince a bandit chick and her goons to help you in the fight.

Not good, evil. I got an option to threaten to kill everyone or bluff my way in. I chose to bluff and the second I walked in, one guy screamed bloody murder and the whole place turned hostile. I tried savescumming for other paths to sneak in, but they operated the same. The second I cross the fort wall, get spotted, entire place goes hostile.

 

You can convince Stag Lord's right hand to betray him and help you out (Diplomacy, or one of the Knowledge checks, possibly something else too?).

Nope. Never saw anything even slightly like this. Nobody talked to me other than the gate guard. Who only opened the door. I scouted the entire surrounding area beforehand. Just didn't kill all of the Bandit Brawler/Alchemist groups. I avoided them. So much for brute forcing!

 

You can use Nature Lore to calm down the Owlbear and have it fight with you too. I mean come on I'm sure you can do at least one of these right?

Only 1 of these 3 I could get and it required savescumming. Only party member with Nature is Amiri. She failed half the time I tried to make the check. And the Owlbear didn't actually bother doing much to help. He stayed in his cage, I only finally got some help because enemies wandered too close to him. Not because the Owlbear actually went out and tried to help.

 

The only way I beat this fight is because I savescummed a nature check that got an NPC to fight for me. Last time a DM was throwing boss fights at my group that had to be won by NPC, I was rather nonplussed. But at least that NPC was actually there to help and wasn't basically an environmental trap I only got if a single character won the roll.

 

 

So did I try to brute force? No, I tried to talk through it. And my party got killed. Then I tried sneaking. Killed. I tried cutting the alarm, not an option. I tried setting a trap, except the Stag Lord ignores initiative and in the middle of someone else's turn he shows up, calls in like 5 other guys, buffs himself, and teleports.

 

So I had to resort to MMO pulling. And got lucky when the Stag Lord wandered too close to the Owlbear while out of sight.

[Gromnir]

 

the stag lord fort is difficult at level 3-4 unless you deal with each group o' defenders before initiating the stag lord entrance.  is four groups o' baddies, and it is possible (advisable) to fight each cluster w/o drawing a response from the stag lord or other defenders.  however, if you confront a cluster o' bandit alchemist, archers and brawlers, the last surviving defender in a group will run away and announce your presence, resulting in a classic charlie fox scenario. do not let a survivor escape. kill. kill. kill. is not subtle. no style points. kill. furthermore, the stag lord always teleports to same place at the start o' the fight, so have a couple melee folks standing on the platform just outta range to charge him as combat begins; puts a serious cramp in his style if every time he uses his bow or casts a spell he gets amiri and a smilodon hitting him with attacks o' opportunity. stag lord encounter is not particular difficult even w/o help o' owl bear, the stag lord's top lieutenant, or the bandits outside the palisade.  however, is only "not particular difficult" if you successful clear the fort o' defenders before the stag lord spawns.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tale]

The other bandits in the fort don't come to his aid, which is nice. But they are a risk if you accidentally aggro them while pulling. And the path up to where the Stag Lord teleports is kind of obscured and hard to find. It's the long way around, past the guys who call for him without anything you can do about it, and kind of rubbing up against the back area. I only saw it after I finished the battle. And even then didn't think it was meant to be traversable. The platform next to him is sitting on top of a guy who calls for him. I thought about trying to get some ranged up there, but since that would also put the much less armored guys in range of one of those +17 damage bonus dudes, I decided it was a pointless risk.

[Gromnir]

 

The other bandits in the fort don't come to his aid, which is nice. But they are a risk if you accidentally aggro them while pulling. And the path up to where the Stag Lord teleports is kind of obscured and hard to find. It's the long way around, past the guys who call for him without anything you can do about it, and kind of rubbing up against the back area. I only saw it after I finished the battle. And even then didn't think it was meant to be traversable. The platform next to him is sitting on top of a guy who calls for him. I thought about trying to get some ranged up there, but since that would also put the much less armored guys in range of one of those +17 damage bonus dudes, I decided it was a pointless risk.

 

 

other bandits do come to his aid... particularly the other named lieutenants.  kill them.  serious.  and the platform is adjacent to the guy who calls for the stag lord.  is not difficult to get guys up on the platform if you clear the defenders on the eastern side o' the fort.  put ranged on platform is far less helpful than is a couple melee to occupy the stag lord. but again, make sure to neutralize auchs and dovan before the stag lord fight starts.  those foes did come to reinforce the stag lord when Gromnir played to test how difficult the encounter would be w/o clearing the fort. auchs and dovan is not easy foes.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited October 4, 2018 by Gromnir

[Tale]

 

Wait, those lieutenants come from within the fort? They just show up when he appears, I figured they were spawning like him. And I was trying to avoid having to rest spam inside an active enemy base, so I didn't bother dealing with the brawlers until afterwards.

 

Clearing the east side is the difficult part. The southeast side is blocked from the northeast side by a building. And traversing around the building to the northeast side gets you uncomfortably close to the lookouts who stop time and call the stag lord.

 

But if the lieutenants are present before the battle, that changes some things. Makes the battle less obviously ridiculous. Though I contend that if the game didn't literally cheat to let the Stag Lord and his Lieutenants set up, I maybe would have been able to figure out their entire existence wasn't a cheat too.

 

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

You actually can leave the eastside be. I did. I got to the Stag Lord and killed hin without agitating that gang (perhaps only killing their lookout just east of the Stag Lord ramp. I checked from a save, and you can just let those bandits hang around there.

 

[Volourn]

"Not good, evil"

 

FAKE NEWS.

[Mamoulian War]

 

Gotcha!

 

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Mamoulian War

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ShadySands]

 

 

I cleared the courtyard from left to right group by group. I got Kressle's group to wait until they heard battle which thankfully only triggers when the Stag Lord appears. You can recruit the guy standing by the far left side of the gate which is where I tend to enter (I've done this like 6 times already thanks to restarts) and the owlbear in the pen if needed and you can pass the checks. When I'm down to the last couple of guards right in front of the fort I usually try to sneak some folks up on the platform that the Stag Lord moves to and then I try to alpha strike one of the guards and can hopefully kill him before the little Stag Lord cut scene plays.

 

It was mentioned already but the last bandit standing in each group will try to run away to sound the alarm so it's pretty important to position your team between the enemies and the alarm so that when they start running you can get plenty of attacks of opportunity.

 

Now there's only a few guards left and you have your 6 plus the turncoat and Kressle's group and maybe an owlbear

 

PS You can also poison the Stag Lord's wine at the crossing when you get the ring back from Kressle and meet the cleric guy for the first time and that should weaken him

 

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by ShadySands

[Slotharingia]

 

If your Alingment is Good, you can convince a bandit chick and her goons to help you in the fight.

Not good, evil. I got an option to threaten to kill everyone or bluff my way in. I chose to bluff and the second I walked in, one guy screamed bloody murder and the whole place turned hostile. I tried savescumming for other paths to sneak in, but they operated the same. The second I cross the fort wall, get spotted, entire place goes hostile.

 

You can convince Stag Lord's right hand to betray him and help you out (Diplomacy, or one of the Knowledge checks, possibly something else too?).

Nope. Never saw anything even slightly like this. Nobody talked to me other than the gate guard. Who only opened the door. I scouted the entire surrounding area beforehand. Just didn't kill all of the Bandit Brawler/Alchemist groups. I avoided them. So much for brute forcing!

 

You can use Nature Lore to calm down the Owlbear and have it fight with you too. I mean come on I'm sure you can do at least one of these right?

Only 1 of these 3 I could get and it required savescumming. Only party member with Nature is Amiri. She failed half the time I tried to make the check. And the Owlbear didn't actually bother doing much to help. He stayed in his cage, I only finally got some help because enemies wandered too close to him. Not because the Owlbear actually went out and tried to help.

 

The only way I beat this fight is because I savescummed a nature check that got an NPC to fight for me. Last time a DM was throwing boss fights at my group that had to be won by NPC, I was rather nonplussed. But at least that NPC was actually there to help and wasn't basically an environmental trap I only got if a single character won the roll.

 

 

So did I try to brute force? No, I tried to talk through it. And my party got killed. Then I tried sneaking. Killed. I tried cutting the alarm, not an option. I tried setting a trap, except the Stag Lord ignores initiative and in the middle of someone else's turn he shows up, calls in like 5 other guys, buffs himself, and teleports.

 

So I had to resort to MMO pulling. And got lucky when the Stag Lord wandered too close to the Owlbear while out of sight.

 

 

Said bandits are outside the keep and possibly require a previous encounter with them to have ended without hostility. The right hand man is on the other side of the wall if you enter top left via mobility or athletics check and may also require reloading to join you, hence easy to miss if you don't know this.

 

 

All in all the game has a lot of stuff that's easy to miss. On my second pt I found things for the bandit fight at Oleg's that made it way easier than on my first pt, where I missed them due to a dialogue choice.

[IndiraLightfoot]

@Slotharingia: Yeah, that was what happened during my first Stag Lord takedown.

 

And as far as I can tell, I met the guy for the first time…

...at Thorn Ford 

.

Edited October 4, 2018 by IndiraLightfoot

[Tale]

Yeah

 

The Thorn Ford guys did not like me at all. And so they did not survive. Still can't get over how I never saw a single lieutenant while checking out the inside of the fort. What the heck.

 

I did get to poison some wine there, but all that did was make the Stag Lord complain a bit. He was really the least of my problems in that whole encounter.

 

[ShadySands]

 

 

Is your character evil or neutral? I've never not had a conflict free Thorn Ford

 

 

[IndiraLightfoot]

My char and my party was almost ridiculously CN in Act1, with a few N and one or two NG choices picked...

...and yes, we had violent confrontations there: two, IIRC.

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by IndiraLightfoot

[Tale]

 

 

Is your character evil or neutral? I've never not had a conflict free Thorn Ford

 

 

Lawful Evil, always. Too many of my favorite characters in fantasy stories are the token evil teammate, I have to take up the mantle myself.