Are Rogues overtuned?

[heldred]

I never thought I would say this, but Rogues seem overpowered, especially when multiclassed. The sub level 7 passives are insane and provide nasty synergy, but the actives are very efficient and can filet bosses or mobs with equal speed. Add in their “get-out-of-trouble” skills and movement abilities... yeah, no real weaknesses.

 

Oddly enough, I don’t find solo Rogues terrifying (certainly competent additions), but multi-Rogue is hideous. It’s my new Monk, unless I multi with Monk...

 

Am I missing something here and overvaluing the Rogues impact on battle? Lately, I’m just wondering why the other 4 people in my party have a job.

 

Thoughts?

[Manveru123]

So Monks are ok now? :D

[mant2si]

They always was overpowered as multi, monks simple broken for current game difficulty.

For my point view, developers now are tossed, and they didn't really understand what the end point for the game difficulty, what should be tuned, and what should be nerfed, they even didn't understand some game mechanics. They try to tuneup/tune down some numbers but this didn't work very well

Community already say what they want: 

* Multistage fights with different enemies types
* Faster combat speed 
* Legendary items that feels as legendary

And for hardcore side:

* Remove all on-click abilities and strategies
* Nerf some overpowered combos



 

Edited July 17, 2018 by mant2si

[Manveru123]

It's easier to change some numbers and claim improvement than do something like "multistage fights".

[mant2si]

It's easier to change some numbers and claim improvement than do something like "multistage fights".

But this is didn't change a lot I believe they should concentrate on encounters difficulty instead of number balancing

Edited July 17, 2018 by mant2si

[gkathellar]

I think it's less that they're overpowered and more that they have great synergy that makes them attractive to pretty much every other martial class. This is especially true insofar as the three rogue subclasses are all pretty attractive and play really distinctively (the Trickster in particular does stuff that only Wizard and Priest of Wael can do otherwise) - the result is that no matter what your other class, you can probably find a way that at least one of the rogue subclasses would bring a lot to the table.

[Haplok]

Community already say what they want: 

 

* Legendary items that feels as legendary

 

 

Not sure about "legendary" status, but so far many items were nerfed from 100% activation chance on crit to like 10% (like Nature's Embrace) or from 75% protection when near death to like 25%.

 

Making a lot of them borderline useless. While they were possibly OP before, IMO it would be enough to nerf them a bit, for example to 40-50%, but keep them valuable and interesting.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Haplok

[gkathellar]

 

Community already say what they want: 

 

* Legendary items that feels as legendary

 

 

Not sure about "legendary" status, but so far many items were nerfed from 100% activation chance on crit to like 10% (like Nature's Embrace) or from 75% protection when near death to like 25%.

 

Making a lot of them borderline useless. While they were possibly OP before, IMO it would be enough to nerf them a bit, for example to 40-50%, but keep them valuable and interesting.

 

 

Yeah I really despise the activation chance nerf approach to balance in games like Pillars. It's a good approach in your Diablos and your Path of Exiles, where you spam moves so rapidly that "3% chance" really reads as "I need to attack X number of times for this to be functionally 100%." It's a bad approach in your CRPGs where the highest level of play involves making each action into a calculated arrangement of moves on a game-board.

[heldred]

Well, to say Monks are OK is like calling a Nuclear-MIRV an appropriate response. Monks and Rogues just make other classes/multis envious of their DPS, synergy, efficiency, etc.

 

Also, agree on items... I think the unique item abilities made balancing a nightmare and he decs should focus more on making legendary weapons better with the basic stats as well... probably less pitfalls of what if class “x” gets hand on this weapon.

 

Either way, more items are always better than less... in both type and appearance.

 

Back to Rogues, they are overtuned post 1.2?

[1TTFFSSE]

"rogues" in general are fine. they are good but very front loaded and high level 8-9 powers are nothing special, even gambit.

 

they do great damage but most of it is single target...what they are supposed to do traditionally in rpg. 

 

if they become exploitable it is not because of the class but because of items and synergies like aoe multi-hit riposte but even that is not as cheesy as what monk can do.

 

sure streetfighter is a bit overtuned just because it is very easy to get the status effect bonuses on blunderbuss modal etc. 

[Verde]

They aren't overpowered but their multi ability is top tier, maybe even #1, as their passives allow you to focus on your other tree.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Verde

[gkathellar]

They aren't overpowered but their multi ability is top tier, maybe even #1, as their passives allow you to focus on your other tree.

 

Crippling Strike is also a pretty phenomenal addition to just about every martial class.

Edited July 17, 2018 by gkathellar

[Bloemkool1]

I agree with everything said in this thread so far, especially with regard to rogue multi classing.

 

I believe the answer to "fixing" rogues lies in accessibility. To "fix them i would propose the following:

 

1) More Sneak / Backstab

 

Rework sneak attack to always require two or more effects in order to be active, in addition damage scales with # afflictions. Rogues should care about both positioning and # number of afflictions. Just being next to your fighter should not enable sneak attack, you need to work for it using actives. In addition to stealth backstab should also be enabled if a certain affliction threshold is reached, say

# 5 different afflictions, giving rogues an in combat burst mechanic (finishing move). So harder to get going, more rewarding when you do.

 

2) More power in actives, less power in passives

 

Shift the power balance of the class into the active abilities (Gouge etc), lower the power of passives, and turn both persistent distraction and riposte into actives ala barb steadfast. Rogues passives should act like puzzle pieces improving damage when condition xxx is met, when yyy is equipped, or similar.

 

3) Create dynamic links between actives

 

A "combo" system where rogue skills play of each other, themselves or/and afflictions allowing you to chain rogue actives.

Example Crippling Strike: Cost 3 Guile. When target is <sneakattackable> refund 1 Guile, and target has <affliction (hobbled)> refund 1 Guile. So when a target can be "rogued" up its cheap / free to act, if it cant, you suck, however rogues should always try to maneuver themselves into a position where they can "rogue" it out. This also makes guile much more important so it lowers multi class potential. Note that this is just an example, proof of concept, not a "balanced" take on a better Crippling Strikes.

 

4)  Rogues should focus on action speed / recovery time.

 

No more 2h greatsword rogues please. Dual wielding and "finesse" weapons should be the rogues thing. Should be reflected in passives. Ex. 30% action speed with daggers / stilettos. Quick flurries with light weaponry (No fists, monk territory) Ranged rogues should be possible and should focus around the "sneaky shot / sniper" idea so increased sneakattack / stealth attack range for ranged only etc etc, perhaps some extra benefits from using escape and smoke veil.

 

So with above the rogue would get a better class identity while at the same time being less desirable as a multiclass option acting as just a straight up damage boost. Mind you that a rogue /fighter combo would still be great as long as the swashbuckler is actually using "dex" weapons and at least trying to get into sneak position, rather than just auto enable everything by just being there and swing for the win with a greatsword whilst backstabbing with it. (i guess its also fantasy but whose?) 

[Manveru123]

 

It's easier to change some numbers and claim improvement than do something like "multistage fights".

But this is didn't change a lot I believe they should concentrate on encounters difficulty instead of number balancing

 

You are right, but unfortunately this is not their design philosophy.

 

Oh and Rogues are fine.

[dunehunter]

2h rogues are never mainstream in the game, they are good for backstab, but only effective in early game. So I don’t understand why one should not be allowed to use 2h as rogue.

[heldred]

It’s the passives that are off the chart and accessibility to multi-class builds.

 

They are fine, if other classes had similar efficiency, but there is a noticeable performance gap I observe in my Rogue (and Monk) builds.

 

Ultimately, the devs don’t have to fix anything... it would be nice if the decision around melee-multi was a tougher decision than it is presently.

 

Not earth shattering stuff, but overtuned classes never benefit a game.

[hilfazer]

And for hardcore side:

 

* Nerf some overpowered combos

 

 

 

You call this hardcore? Nerfing is for pussies, let's outright destroy them!

[Dorftek]

Nerf rogue, Nerf monk, nerf chanter, nerf wizard and nerf priest of magran. Then remove paladins passive defences and the fighters heals. Also nerf twinned shot, whirling strike, heart of fury, maelstrom, reduce time for ascendants, definitely remove ringleader spell. Did I leave something out?

[anathanielh]

Nerf rogue, Nerf monk, nerf chanter, nerf wizard and nerf priest of magran. Then remove paladins passive defences and the fighters heals. Also nerf twinned shot, whirling strike, heart of fury, maelstrom, reduce time for ascendants, definitely remove ringleader spell. Did I leave something out?

You forgot to nerf walking. It’s too fast. Everybody should start with 10% stride.

Also nerf swords to have only 1 base pen so people use daggers more.

[heldred]

Contrast reflects positive and nagative disparities.

 

Devs could:

1) Nerf overachievers -easier task, but sadder community

2) Buff underachievers - harder task, but happier community

 

Would love #2, either way, worthwhile discussion.

[Bloemkool1]

Remember people, while the devs control the main direction of the game, they did open the game up to "easy" modding so after a while we could all possibly get the balance we want for our game regardless of what the devs decide. No need to be glum about a never ending balance war which will never play out exactly like everyone wants (impossible mind you)

[Manveru123]

 

Nerf rogue, Nerf monk, nerf chanter, nerf wizard and nerf priest of magran. Then remove paladins passive defences and the fighters heals. Also nerf twinned shot, whirling strike, heart of fury, maelstrom, reduce time for ascendants, definitely remove ringleader spell. Did I leave something out?

You forgot to nerf walking. It’s too fast. Everybody should start with 10% stride.

Also nerf swords to have only 1 base pen so people use daggers more.

 

Remove all summoning spells and invocations. If you do that, there is no need to balance them ever again.

Make every spell and ability deal fixed damage. That way you can easily balance around numbers!

Reduce maximum class resources by 75%, so I don't actually use skills too much, because it makes battles shorter. Also double enemy HP so I have to autoattack them more.

 

The list could go on, but why. Better question is, at what point do you uninstall?

[anathanielh]

 

 

Nerf rogue, Nerf monk, nerf chanter, nerf wizard and nerf priest of magran. Then remove paladins passive defences and the fighters heals. Also nerf twinned shot, whirling strike, heart of fury, maelstrom, reduce time for ascendants, definitely remove ringleader spell. Did I leave something out?

You forgot to nerf walking. It’s too fast. Everybody should start with 10% stride.

Also nerf swords to have only 1 base pen so people use daggers more.

Remove all summoning spells and invocations. If you do that, there is no need to balance them ever again.

Make every spell and ability deal fixed damage. That way you can easily balance around numbers!

Reduce maximum class resources by 75%, so I don't actually use skills too much, because it makes battles shorter. Also double enemy HP so I have to autoattack them more.

 

The list could go on, but why. Better question is, at what point do you uninstall?

Never, because mods.

[Verde]

What also makes Rogues very strong as a multi is their selection of versatile abilities. You can cherry-pick and still create a strong char. MC, Mirke, and Eder all have different ability trees on my current playthrough.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Verde

[Tanlaus]

I’m not sure just buffing underachievers would make the community happy. There’s plenty of people who complain the game is too easy as is.

 

It’s also not that simple. Buffing underachievers has the side effect of potentially overpowering multiclasses with them.

 

And as we are with rogues, it’s really the multiclassing that creates issues.