Baldur's Gate 2 > PoE 2 Deadfire

[Walkyr]

Hello guys. I am frustrated that I am waiting 20 years for RPG game simmilar to Baldur's Gate 2 and no one can make it.

 

Pillars of eternity 1/2 are great games but there is easy to see different of quality comparing to Baldur's Gate 2

 

I dont know what od the reson.

 

Why Baldur's Gate after so many years os still the best RPG?

 

Its deepht od the forgotten realms world?

Its many and great characters?

Its great story, rewarding quests, dungeons and fights?

 

Maybe its becouse world is changing and so comptuter games are changing and even obsidian enterteiment need to make their games to sell it for more people so they making PoE easy and flat.

 

 

Can samoene explains me what's going on?

20 years after BG 2 and no one can make gamę simmilar or EVEN GREATER! than BG 2?

 

And dont tell me about nostalgia becouse its not the case.

[TheisEjsing]

And dont tell me about nostalgia becouse its not the case.

I'm gonna tell you about it anyways, because it is in parts about nostalgia. If you replay Baldurs Gate II now, the dialog is often really cringe worthy. And descriptions and mechanics aren't up to par for this age. I look at BG II with rose tinted glasses, because it might be my favorite game of all time. But I was 20 years younger back then, and I was more excitable and knew  a lot less about most things.

 

Personally, I find it impossible for games now in my early thirties, with all the games I have played by now, to replicate the feelings I got when I played Baldur's Gate II the first time, thou I admit Twitcher 3 did a grand job of trying. But if I played BG II for the first time now, it wouldn't be nearly as good or impactful for me, as it was then. 

 

You may like BG II more, but that is not objective. I like PoE's mature and complex writing much more now, than I like the immature, D&D trope style writing from BG II. So don't discard nostalgia like that, because it does play a significant role in your perception of games you play now.

Edited June 30, 2018 by TheisEjsing

[AeonsLegend]

If you're looking for another similar game you can try Divinity: Original Sin 1 and 2. The battle system is far more complex and it uses AP like the old Fallout series, but overall it's pretty similar. And enjoyable.

 

You may like BG II more, but that is not objective. I like PoE's mature and complex writing much more now, than I like the immature, D&D trope style writing from BG II. So don't discard nostalgia like that, because it does play a significant role in your perception of games you play now.

You and I must have played a completely different game. Edited June 30, 2018 by AeonsLegend

[Unreason]

Maybe you miss having to spam spell protection debuffs just to have the hopes of dealing damage to a wizard?

 

Or Aerie's incredibly cringeworthy "oh no i'm having a baby okay hi here's the baby!!!"?

 

Perhaps you miss the near hundred different ways instant death can reach out and touch you?

 

How about class balance being so violently out of whack that there's literally no reason to use several classes and kits outside of roleplaying?

 

Baldur's Gate 2 was a good game for its time, but it has many flaws. Whether or not it's a "better" game than POE or Deadfire is entirely subjective, but that doesn't mean that Deadfire isn't good.

 

And Deadfire IS good, if you were wondering.

[ThacoBell]

Nostalgia is ALWAYS a factor if you find that a 20 year old game is better in every way. BG2 was more buggy at release than anything put out by Obsidian in recent years. Many aspects of the manual were inaccurate. The writing for the main villain was super cliche, even for the time, which was only saved by the amazing performance of the actor. While I wouldn't say the writing is childish in any way, it IS pretty basic compared to the more complex narratives presented by almost every story driven game these days. Companions were shallow, usually defined by one character flaw, comedy, or by being really good/evil. A lot descriptions in game were misleading or wrong.

About half of those complaints are by today's standards and BG2 was amzing for the time it was released, and I played it at the perfect time to leave a lasting impact on me.BG2 is my favorite game of all time, but not because its somehow unequaled by anything to come out since, many games have done what it does better, but BECAUSE IT HOLDS A SPECIAL PLACE IN MY HEART.

[wih]

Well, no one can answer OP's questions until OP defines what exactly makes BG2 better than PoE for them. Simple example - if the game has to be DnD for the OP to like it, then PoE can't compete. I am sure it is not that simple but OP needs to explain. PoE also has story, characters, dungeons and fights. Liking or not liking them is going to be subjective.

[Fenixp]

Why Baldur's Gate after so many years os still the best RPG?

It's not, Fallout was better even back when BG came out. #FalloutForLife

 

Its deepht od the forgotten realms world?

There's depth to Forgotten Realms? Well BG games didn't do a very good job of conveying that then.

 

Its many and great characters?

Which characters?

 

Its great story

Where did it go when I played?

 

rewarding quests, dungeons and fights?

I mean, you got that one thing right - it was rewarding to get through some of the gimmicky fights where you had to figure out how to not die of insta-kill attacks.

 

Oh, wait, relieving. Not rewarding, it was a bit of a relief.

[Tick]

I never completed the Baldurs Gate games, but I tried them out in earnest.

 

I second TheisEjsing on the writing. It was very epic, tropey writing and the characters were either very minimalist or stereotypical or both. I think the games seem cool and whatnot, but they're also flawed and simplistic writing wise and kind of broken mechanically.

 

The problem, I believe, is that you're not getting something that feels like /makes you feel like the original game. But that sort of feeling isn't something that I think Obsidian generally creates, and I don't want them to. Obsidian has always been the one that twists and complicates and makes ideas and people more real and believable. Baldurs is very Bioware.

 

I am sorry though, that you haven't had a game that made you feel the way you did before. I've been in that same boat about different games and things, and it sucks.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Tick

[Walkyr]

But in pillars everything seems flat. In every /house/faction there are same ammout of main characters ho gave you quest. And i see this every time in next and next pleace. Its like copy paste. Plus companions are talking some their dialogs in quests but most of the time its like out of nowhere for example:

 

-quest giver- blab bla bla something about quest

-companion - its a nice apple/ you have right on this / he have right  (some flat anwsers like this)

 

its annoying

 

It feels like game is filled with repeated content. You going in world and you thinking maybe its something new/ new quest but naah this is the same thing in same contruction but with different words.

 

And guys please its not about nostalgia. BG2 was just a masterpiece. Music, world, characters like Irenicus, different quests.

 

In bg 2 we have evil mage Irenicus, in POE2 we have Arkemyr. Compare this two characters for example.

 

When i have quest to get to Arkemyr mansion i was thinking maan this will be hard. This guy is archmage. But naah it was easy and later we have boring conversation with him and he giving us quest.

 

Same construction with killing Benweth in fort Deathlight. We killing him and Aeldys is giving us next quest...

 

 

   

[bronzepoem]

Just because BG2 have much more content than POE2.More companions,more quests,more maps.POE2 is a small game.

[OldViking]

Nostalgia is ALWAYS a factor if you find that a 20 year old game is better in every way. BG2 was more buggy at release than anything put out by Obsidian in recent years. Many aspects of the manual were inaccurate. The writing for the main villain was super cliche, even for the time, which was only saved by the amazing performance of the actor. While I wouldn't say the writing is childish in any way, it IS pretty basic compared to the more complex narratives presented by almost every story driven game these days. Companions were shallow, usually defined by one character flaw, comedy, or by being really good/evil. A lot descriptions in game were misleading or wrong.

 

About half of those complaints are by today's standards and BG2 was amzing for the time it was released, and I played it at the perfect time to leave a lasting impact on me.BG2 is my favorite game of all time, but not because its somehow unequaled by anything to come out since, many games have done what it does better, but BECAUSE IT HOLDS A SPECIAL PLACE IN MY HEART.

Well, Deadfires writing is really not that good. Lame main story, lame companions.

I know Obsidian can do way better than this. I am dissapointed actually.

Is the game fun to play? Absolutley, but not because of the writing.

For me the best story Obsidian ever did, was Fallout New Vegas, i was so glad that Crapthesda was only the publisher for this amazing game.

[Wormerine]

Baldur’s Gate2 was lighting in the bottle. It can’t be reproduced or replicated. PoE games are superior to BG is many aspects, but I would agree they are probably not as good. Why? I can’t tell you.

 

A similar game to me is Xcom: UFO Defence (or UFO: Enemy Unknown) - I am not even terribly nostalgic about that one. It’s a game with many issues and other games (even firaxis remake) do many things better, and yet nothing can compare.

 

There is a game, which I consider to be my new Baldur’s Gate2: Witcher3. Pretty much gave me the same feeling and, I would say, a similar type of game - approachable, sprawling, limited but focused RPG.

 

PoE did a great job - I replayed BGs between PoE and Deadfire’s release, and to be honest, I only gained more respect to Obsidian’s craft. PoE1 3.5 made for much more enjoyable gameplay, and it took me a while before I switched to cartoonish and one note characters of BG. I don’t mean that as criticism - BG is more of a cartoon, while PoE attempts to be a novel. Liked both. I am still not sure how I feel about Deadfire as it seems to be stuck somewhere inbetween.

 

Still, it can’t compare to playing BGs for the first time, what... +15 years ago?

[Gregorovitch]

Baldur’s Gate2 was lighting in the bottle. It can’t be reproduced or replicated.

 

This is it in a nutshell. BG1&2 took the Ultima 7 template and did something magical to it. One aspect was control of each character in the party which neither the Ultima games nor Fallout 1 & 2 had. Another aspect is the one great and unreproducable pair of chararcters in the series, Minsc and Boo, still to this day probably the most iconic and beloved RPG characters ever, Geralt of Rivia and Shepherd notwithstanding. The other characters in BG don't even come close. But mainly it's because the Infinity Engine games were the first to bring a reasonably authentic D&D experience in a form accessible enough for millions to get into, and millions did.

 

It was a good game, but mostly it was first and it had Minsc. That's what done it. That's why it's impossible to reproduce it. Same reason no band has or ever will surpass the Beatles. It's impossible. It can't be done. No matter that people hardly ever actually listen to the Beatles anymore because modern music sounds so much better, is so much better played, is so much more intricate and is so much more varied. Doesn't matter. If you copy the Beatles you just get called a Beatles copycat. If you don't copy the Bealtes then you're not comparable, not the same thing, which since everyone knows The Beatles are the best ever means by definition you cannot be as good. The Beatles did something very special and they did it first. That "first" bit can never be changed and that's all there is to it. End of.

 

But of course the truth is young people today don't look at the Beatles like that. Only their grand parents were around to experience listening to them when they actually made their records in the 1960's. Baldur's Gate was made in 1998, a mere 20 years ago, and there are still plenty of people playing RPGs who first played Baldurs Gate when they were a kid and had their mind blown by it. Nothing can compare to that experience. RPG will never be truly free from the cult of Baldur's Gate until every teenager who played the bloody game in 1998 is safely ensconced six feet under.

 

Which is why these endless threads about [enter RPG of your choice] being inferior to Baldur's Gate are as pointless as they are tiresome.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Gregorovitch

[xzar_monty]

As it happens, I agree with the OP. Some of the reasons are somewhat intangible, i.e. I believe the general "feel" of the game is a lot better in BG2 than it is in the PoE franchise. And mind you, I definitely mean only BG2 -- the original Baldur's Gate is quite poor, in my opinion, because the story is all over the place, the dialogue options are often dreadful and there's way too much aimless walking around on mostly empty maps.

 

Some of the more tangible reasons why BG2, in my view, trumps the PoE franchise, would include:

 

-- PoE allows you to reach level cap far too early, and this is a huge minus for the game. I want to have at least the option of being able to develop. (Mind you, not all of the demigodly powers you eventually get in BG2 are that great, but it's a lot better than simply stopping to develop two thirds into the story.)

-- BG2 has better music, which leads to better overall tone in the game. (I mean, better music for the game. Neither has a particularly refined score, but BG2's achieves its aim a lot better.)

-- Thanks to the enchantment system, nearly all items in PoE are disposable, and there's basically nothing in the shops that you'd want to buy. Persistence and Tidefall are among the very few items you really care for, whereas BG2 has a lot of stuff you treasure. It also has a lot of stuff that you want to save your cash for. Money is almost completely meaningless in PoE.

-- The spell system is BG2 is simply a lot better than that of PoE. The grimoire stuff doesn't work at all, whereas learning (and possibly failing to learn) spells from scrolls is a good idea.

-- Having a bottomless inventory (and being unable to drop things!) while at the same only having room for 2 or 4 camping supplies in PoE is something that really irks me. It's a minor thing, but it's very wrong anyway.

-- BG2 has Yoshimo, which was a very good twist in the story the first time you saw it. I have not played PoE2 all the way through, so I don't know what to expect in that sense, but PoE1, at least, had nothing of the sort. And no, I don't mean to imply that it should have had a Yoshimo, but *something* surprising in the story would have been nice.

-- Two twofold nature of the early main quest in BG2 is really good, i.e. you want to get Imoen back and you want to find Irenicus. They amount to the same in the end, but it's a device that works well. I enjoyed the Watcher storyline early on, particularly when I encountered that woman in the tree, but after a while I sort of ceased to care.

-- I don't believe the PoE characters are significantly better written than those of BG2. I agree that Minsc is dreadful, simply some very poor comic relief, but Viconia, Jan, Valygar, Keldorn and Anomen are good. I don't mean that I like them all, as characters in my party, but they work quite well, and their interplay is also nice. In PoE, only Eder was of the same quality.

-- The play with language in PoE doesn't really work. You know, gul, fampyr, duc, all that. It's too clever by 'alf, as an English villager might point out.

 

I think BG2 simply managed some things in a way that no other games have managed -- and obviously this is just my opinion. But to compare: BG1 is very poor, NWN is rubbish (the 3D gets old in an instant, none of the NPCs are good, the story is poor, every quest is FedEx), IWD is shallow (hack & slash). I managed about 15 minutes of Dragon Age: Origins before forgetting about it, about 30 minutes of Divinity: Original Sin and about 45 minutes of Tyranny. None of them had it. PoE does have it, definitely, simply not to the same extent as BG2.

[xzar_monty]

 

It was a good game, but mostly it was first and it had Minsc. That's what done it. That's why it's impossible to reproduce it. Same reason no band has or ever will surpass the Beatles. It's impossible. It can't be done. No matter that people hardly ever actually listen to the Beatles anymore because modern music sounds so much better, is so much better played, is so much more intricate and is so much more varied. Doesn't matter. If you copy the Beatles you just get called a Beatles copycat. If you don't copy the Bealtes then you're not comparable, not the same thing, which since everyone knows The Beatles are the best ever means by definition you cannot be as good. The Beatles did something very special and they did it first. That "first" bit can never be changed and that's all there is to it. End of.

 

Not a lot of musicians actually think that nobody has surpassed the Beatles. Sure, there are many people who do have that view, but it's nowhere near as clear-cut as you make it sound, and I think the Beatles analogy is really quite poor.

 

I agree that the Beatles did do a few things for the first time (although there a lot fewer of those things that you might imagine), but they have been surpassed by an awful lot of bands. All talk about "best ever" is just utterly meaningless in music: there are too many intangibles and far too few tangibles to make reasonable comparisons. With computer games, the tangibles are much more evident, although obviously it does come down to opinion in the end.

[MortyTheGobbo]

I feel bad for Obsidian sometimes. Some things in Deadfire work, others don't... but no matter what they do, people will still sigh wistfully for a 15+ year old game based on a cut-up version of a terrible tabletop ruleset. Pillars' mechanics have their foibles, but at least Deflection doesn't stop mattering halfway through and Intelligence is actually useful to wizards.

 

I love Baldur's Gate 2 and I always will, but I've long since chosen not to compare every game to my memories of it.

Edited June 30, 2018 by MortyTheGobbo

[Gregorovitch]

 

 

It was a good game, but mostly it was first and it had Minsc. That's what done it. That's why it's impossible to reproduce it. Same reason no band has or ever will surpass the Beatles. It's impossible. It can't be done. No matter that people hardly ever actually listen to the Beatles anymore because modern music sounds so much better, is so much better played, is so much more intricate and is so much more varied. Doesn't matter. If you copy the Beatles you just get called a Beatles copycat. If you don't copy the Bealtes then you're not comparable, not the same thing, which since everyone knows The Beatles are the best ever means by definition you cannot be as good. The Beatles did something very special and they did it first. That "first" bit can never be changed and that's all there is to it. End of.

 

Not a lot of musicians actually think that nobody has surpassed the Beatles. Sure, there are many people who do have that view, but it's nowhere near as clear-cut as you make it sound, and I think the Beatles analogy is really quite poor.

 

I agree that the Beatles did do a few things for the first time (although there a lot fewer of those things that you might imagine), but they have been surpassed by an awful lot of bands. All talk about "best ever" is just utterly meaningless in music: there are too many intangibles and far too few tangibles to make reasonable comparisons. With computer games, the tangibles are much more evident, although obviously it does come down to opinion in the end.

 

 

You are of course right and I was not being entirely serious from a serious musicology standpoint. But the fact that many people still have that view is good enough for my purposes in this debate and I stand by it. It's about a reputation that has outgrown any sort of objective reality, and what you say about the reality of the Beatles (on which you are entirely correct on all points in my opinion btw) just serves to emphasise my point.

[Shadenuat]

- More lethal, command and control, RTS inspired combat: in IE games you and enemies generally have same amount of hitpoints and even biggest creatures do not have a lot of them, higher difficulty just raises damage you receive. This leads to more tactical combat where correct tactic allows you to win over better stats. In IE combat any metaphorical tactical button you press usually changes combat pacing a lot, in PoE you just rotate them like in MMOs. IE games by default also had a lot more mobility, control and finess, PoE has engagement aka trench warfate. Add to this monsters with unique abilities and resists.

 

- Better magic system. At it's best IE has more expansive magic system with stronger effects.

 

- Better magic system translates to better monsters and of course better itemization. Since something like Haste or Slow or Paralyze or Poison are so powerful, an item that gives you Haste or immunity to Poison feels more useful than any item in PoE. Monsters that are more dangerous are also more rewarding to defeat and lead to crazier and cooler encounters.

 

- Big world with good dungeons. IE games didn't have the best dungeons (that's more of blobber thing), but Durlag's Tower & Watcher's Keep are still unrivaled by anything happened in PoE.

 

- Companions are D&D cliches, but there are more of them, and they provide a real sense of camaraderie and different flavor for multiple playthroughs. In BG if you played with Keldorn, Aerie & Minsc it was different experience to playing with Edwin, Viconia and Korgan. Companions in BG are more expressive, and multiplied by great voice acting, it leads to pretty fun experience. They're more one-dimensional, but paradoxically it leads to more interesting party gathering since you figure out which character would not tolerate whom, or what, you do. Some of them even had a lot of troubles and weaknesses - Viconia's MR worked both on enemy spells and yours, some characters had very low constitution or dex, some had great stats but terrible personalities, Minsc could just break from your control in combat but it was useful against charm effects, Khalid getting struck by lightning when raining and running away half across the map, etc.

 

- IE games also tried to sometimes place setting first. It's hard to explain but simulation generally leads to some perks when it comes to immersion and even gameplay. For example, low STR characters could not wear better armor, but if you found gauntles of ogre strength for them, the way you use them would change very dramatically. Or the fact that you could sometimes use detect alignment spell to know if some dudes in a forest are trouble or not. Or the fact that you could ask greater power for a true name for super set of demonic armor by finding correct spell, memorising it and casting it.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Shadenuat

[anathanielh]

I tried playing BG2 recently and I honestly thought it was a steaming load of crap, but I have no doubt that if I played it as a kid I would have had a whale of a time.

 

When you’re young a cliche may not be a cliche to you, as you may not have seen it yet in your life. when you’re young every tedious quest that BG2 makes you have to slog through may not be that way because you have all the time in the world to figure out how to stop a gimmicky boss from one-shotting your team.

 

I can’t stand it. I have school and a job and a dying social life that I have to desparately keep track of before I collapse and die. I agree that PoE 2 isn’t perfect, but to me is so much less tedious to get through (for me because this is subjective) and the combat is satisfying enough.

 

It’s fine to still like a game that you’ve played 20 years ago, but to outright deny that nostalgia has anything to do with it seems absolutely deluded to me. Just own up to it. I played Mickey Mouse Racing for the playstation when I was a child and the image I have in my head of it is absolutely marvelous. It will forever be my favorite racing game because of the good memories I have of it. I know that if I play it again, however, that I wouldn’t stand the constant bull**** that game throws at the player to cheat them of victories.

[knownastherat]

Yeah, you are young.

[Shadenuat]

PoE 2 isn’t perfect, but to me is so much less tedious to get through

Load of bull****. PoE just because of it's system that has more granularity in it is the definition of tedious. It's all about tedious gameplay and repeatedly using abilities you use every combat on every character. Unless you play it on story mode or smh.

 

If you master BG2 you can go through it very quickly. PoE if you don't exploit, is same repetition every combat.

 

I wouldn’t stand the constant bull**** that game throws at the player to cheat them of victories

"having job and family made me terrible at games" lololo dude.

 

Why say game is pile of crap? Just say it honestly, that it's too difficult for you because you are bad and don't want to improve or spend any effort on the game.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Shadenuat

[HoonDing]

Planetscape Tournament > Baulders Gate

[OldViking]

I tried playing BG2 recently and I honestly thought it was a steaming load of crap, but I have no doubt that if I played it as a kid I would have had a whale of a time.

 

When you’re young a cliche may not be a cliche to you, as you may not have seen it yet in your life. when you’re young every tedious quest that BG2 makes you have to slog through may not be that way because you have all the time in the world to figure out how to stop a gimmicky boss from one-shotting your team.

 

I can’t stand it. I have school and a job and a dying social life that I have to desparately keep track of before I collapse and die. I agree that PoE 2 isn’t perfect, but to me is so much less tedious to get through (for me because this is subjective) and the combat is satisfying enough.

 

It’s fine to still like a game that you’ve played 20 years ago, but to outright deny that nostalgia has anything to do with it seems absolutely deluded to me. Just own up to it. I played Mickey Mouse Racing for the playstation when I was a child and the image I have in my head of it is absolutely marvelous. It will forever be my favorite racing game because of the good memories I have of it. I know that if I play it again, however, that I wouldn’t stand the constant bull**** that game throws at the player to cheat them of victories.

I hope you don't mean that horrible remake of BGII with playing recently-

Edited June 30, 2018 by OldViking

[OldViking]

 

PoE 2 isn’t perfect, but to me is so much less tedious to get through

Load of bull****. PoE just because of it's system that has more granularity in it is the definition of tedious. It's all about tedious gameplay and repeatedly using abilities you use every combat on every character. Unless you play it on story mode or smh.

 

If you master BG2 you can go through it very quickly. PoE if you don't exploit, is same repetition every combat.

 

I wouldn’t stand the constant bull**** that game throws at the player to cheat them of victories

"having job and family made me terrible at games" lololo dude.

 

Why say game is pile of crap? Just say it honestly, that it's too difficult for you because you are bad and don't want to improve or spend any effort on the game.

 

So much this.

[anathanielh]

 

PoE 2 isn’t perfect, but to me is so much less tedious to get through

Load of bull****. PoE just because of it's system that has more granularity in it is the definition of tedious. It's all about tedious gameplay and repeatedly using abilities you use every combat on every character. Unless you play it on story mode or smh.

 

If you master BG2 you can go through it very quickly. PoE if you don't exploit, is same repetition every combat.

I wouldn’t stand the constant bull**** that game throws at the player to cheat them of victories

"having job and family made me terrible at games" lololo dude.

 

Why say game is pile of crap? Just say it honestly, that it's too difficult for you because you are bad and don't want to improve or spend any effort on the game.

I said the game was bad TO ME (I’m sure I stated that explicitly), because I do not like what it does. I’m not claiming that the game is so flawed on a fundamental level that nobody can enjoy it. If you like it more, then more power to you.

 

The second quote was about the Mickey Mouse Racing game if that wasn’t clear enough from the context clues around it. That said, I shouldn’t have to “master” every game to have fun with it. Time is limited and I try to make life worth living at least a little bit.

 

I am also a filthy casual who likes to have fun with his games and tries not to burn himself out on them. I am bad at games if that’s what you wanted to hear.