Atsura is a really nice character.

[Tick]

Ok just checked in game and he reacts the same way to an aggressive Watcher as well. So he's playing a rough type.

It seems like he has a hard time with this and the passionate one lol.

 

How do you change the reactions in game btw?

[handsomenat]

I used Unity Console: here. Open the character sheet and the options to manipulate dispositions will display on the right.

 

I also checked his initial responses to every disposition and he basically has three responses: hugs you if you're benevolent/passionate, nods courteously if you're diplomatic/stoic and slaps you on the back if you're aggressive/cruel. Other dispositions change nothing and he just continues to introduce himself. (should i stop here??).

[Tick]

I used Unity Console: here. Open the character sheet and the options to manipulate dispositions will display on the right.

 

I also checked his initial responses to every disposition and he basically has three responses: hugs you if you're benevolent/passionate, nods courteously if you're diplomatic/stoic and slaps you on the back if you're aggressive/cruel. Other dispositions change nothing and he just continues to introduce himself. (should i stop here??).

Oh cool! Thank you! :D

 

I personally really enjoy reading the different responses you guys have posted, because I'm curious about them but often wouldn't go the routes I need to to see them.

[handsomenat]

Ok, I have more reactions from Atsura. spoilers. It's after assassination of the royal family.

 

Aggressive Watcher:

 

 

It's the same if you're cruel:

 

 

If you're kind-hearted, passionate or mild-mannered though his reaction is exactly opposite:

 

 

It's honestly hilarious how his VA delivers this line.

 

When you're shady or clever:

 

 

When you're rational:

 

 

And stoic:

 

 

Probably my favorite.

 

Now, there isn't a specific reaction for an Honest Watcher. But there's this line. And since all dispositions got their respective reactions with only honest being left out it looks like only a 100% Honest Watcher with no other dispositions would see it:

 

 

It's similar to Rational reaction but lacks that persuasive edge.

Edited June 28, 2018 by handsomenat

[Tick]

Ok, I have more reactions from Atsura. spoilers.

[...]

It's similar to Rational reaction but lacks that persuasive edge.

Oh neat! :D I love the variety of reactions. I know people said he tries to mirror you, but reading more of his stuff make me realize more and more how true it is.

 

And yeah, the voice actor for this guy is fantastic.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Tick

[Hawke64]

I just wanted to say that Atsura's reactions to the avatar's dispositions are amazing (the time and effort put into the character, while not every player will notice it).

 

Though, he kind of reminds me of the Voices of Nerat, except being more sane and singular (?). It'd be nice to have someone like him in the party, but, as it is, I'd stab him, if it didn't turn the whole Brass Citadel hostile (yes, I've tried).

[SerenityHarkness]

He creeps me out. But part of that MIGHT be that I'm playing a benevolent character who HATES being touched by people she doesn't know....we'll see how I feel about him next character...except Illyasviel will probably be creeped out too....Sorry Atsura! You're a brilliant character but it'll be awhile before I can make a character who likes you!

[Parasol_Syndicate]

It will forever be a mystery to me why the RDC doesn't just mortar the palace rooftop, and ignore the watcher angle entirely. 

"With one decisive battle, you've crushed the chances of a long and costly insurgency... or you would have, had I not ordered it done twenty minutes ago."   
 

I guess it's important to choose our ending, and being outsmarted by an NPC would be galling to many players. 

[handsomenat]

Atsura tries hard to come off as a nice person but no one told him that nice people don't usually start a conversation with a newly met person by hugging them. Almost had it.

 

I think it could be cool if the city became more chaotic nearing the end of the game. Instead of faction leaders arguing at the palace RDC actually goes with their plan... and the player either plays the part of the assassin, like in the game, or if they're sided with Huana or VTC has to rescue the queen. If you're aiding Principi you just wait it out and using the opportunity steal from everyone. Or something.

 

And on the topic of being outsmarted... Maia's quest kinda does that. You as a player, are conditioned by years of playing rpgs that you just gotta do the quest and hope that there just will be an option to go the way you want to. And then you realize it's you who has been played. Admittedly on a smaller scale than what you propose.

[Tarlonniel]

He creeps me out. But part of that MIGHT be that I'm playing a benevolent character who HATES being touched by people she doesn't know...

 

Oh so much this. The hug was the creepiest thing of all. *shudder*

[Fredward]

I'm pretty sure he's supposed to creep you out, it's like he wearing a person. Doing the math of whoever is in front of him and having his meat suit respond accordingly.

 

I've considered Atsura under three different lenses, 1) intelligent psychopath 2) somewhere on the autism spectrum 3) a true adherent to the philosophy he espouses. None of these need to be mutually exclusive, it's entirely possible that he's some degree of all three.

 

It's easy to see Atsura's behavior as an adaptive behavior of autism, I didn't notice the ciphers before and that's a nice catch. The thing with autism, especially on the more severe end of the spectrum (like you'd expect someone as mechanical Atsura to be) is that it's more than just being bad or not recognizing or engaging with social cues it's a more fundamental lack of inclination or ability to understand or why should want to accommodate these things. They don't grok the inner lives of others, which would make a relatively subtle behavior like manipulation difficult. This is complicated by the fact that every interaction he has with the Watcher is couched in him wanting something from them, social adaptation or manipulation? I guess we could get into a deep discussion about whether there's a meaningful difference but let's not. It'd be interesting to see him interact with someone he has no possible present or future use for, if he's still trying to appear 'normal' I'd be more inclined to think he's being adaptive.

 

The philosophy thing (we're transient so why don't we embrace that transience, turn it into maximum efficiency to serve something with the potential to be permanent?) I can only see as an in addition kinda thing. You find plenty of people really devoted to their guiding philosophies but you don't really see an anti-natalist extend their devotion to the intuitive behavior of murder. It's one thing to believe something, it's another to have that fundamentally overwrite your personhood.

 

Which leaves intelligent psychopath, and I keep adding 'intelligent' to that since most psychopaths (ie the kind that are in a situation that calls for an official diagnosis) aren't, they have below average IQ. Probably at least partly because of this they generally do obvious things for immediate benefit but I have no trouble imagining Atsura genuinely believing his philosophy, aligning himself with it in word and deed (though mostly deed in this case since his words are whatever he needs them to be) and employing his underlying psychopathy to be better at it than any 'normal' person would be.

 

But yeah that's my 2c on the character.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Fredward

[bugarup]

Another contribution to "Atsura is a manipulative creep" collection. Here's my Hannibal Bleakwalker getting endgame quest from him:

 

[Parasol_Syndicate]

In with the quality content.

 

I could have changed the date, or put Monsters of the Deadfire in the adjoining column, but close enough.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Parasol_Syndicate

[Incendax]

it's a more fundamental lack of inclination or ability to understand or why should want to accommodate these things. They don't grok the inner lives of others, which would make a relatively subtle behavior like manipulation difficult.

I don't want to derail the thread, but speaking as someone who both has moderate autism and spent years working with people that have autism, this is not an accurate representation of what is going on with most autistic people. It's easy to arrive at that conclusion because so many people with autism become frustrated at the world's inability to 'make sense' or never reach that point in their cognitive maturity because of a co-morbid condition, but there is no greater or lesser desire to understand than any other person who is frustrated with a task. Like overcoming any limitation, there are paths around your 'blindness'.

 

For example, like many others I have shared my story with, I had an incredibly frustrating youth filled with all the usual poor communication that comes with being an autistic child in a house that has no idea what autism is. My inability to understand why the people around me were getting angry or sad or even that they were experiencing these emotions without the most outward and obvious of expressions made me want to give up even trying to understand them. For a while, I did. But as I grew older and gained more experience, I was able to overcome this by discussing emotional cause and effect with patient people so I could choose which actions were most likely to generate positive results. It didn't always work out, of course. I would often come across like Atsura.

 

It took YEARS of practice. I still have no idea what the person sitting across from me is thinking or feeling about what I say / do. But actively listening to feedback has allowed me to construct a model of behavior to generate desired outcomes, and I stick to those models most of the time.

 

None of this is to say you are right or wrong about Atsura. I just wanted to tackle the "lack of inclination or ability" issue.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Incendax

[TobiTobsen]

Atsura is an awesome character. Brilliantly written and with great reactivity to your disposition.

Didn't stop my Orlan from blowing out his kneecaps though. The fella triggered waaay to many of my "Uncanny Valley"/"Mark Zuckerberg trying to smile like a human being" buttons. Didn't feel comfortable turning my back on a guy like that in such a powerful position.

[Tick]

I'm pretty sure he's supposed to creep you out, it's like he wearing a person. Doing the math of whoever is in front of him and having his meat suit respond accordingly.

 

That's a really good way to put it! Really hits the nail on the head of the vibe he gives off.  I think you made a pretty good analysis of him after too.

 

And yeah, it's extremely hard to tell if he's being manipulative or just trying to socialize, engage, and relate to you. That may be the point.  Either way, it's clear he doesn't think the same way and isn't quite in the same headspace you are.

 

I don't want to derail the thread, but speaking as someone who both has moderate autism and spent years working with people that have autism, this is not an accurate representation of what is going on with most autistic people. It's easy to arrive at that conclusion because so many people with autism become frustrated at the world's inability to 'make sense' or never reach that point in their cognitive maturity because of a co-morbid condition, but there is no greater or lesser desire to understand than any other person who is frustrated with a task. Like overcoming any limitation, there are paths around your 'blindness'.

 

[...]

 

I just wanted to make a side comment and thank you for sharing that experience!  I don't think I've had that experience or those obstacles myself, but I really want to understand better, so reading or listening about it from someone that knows more than me is really cool and helps.  

[Tagaziel]

And yeah, it's extremely hard to tell if he's being manipulative or just trying to socialize, engage, and relate to you.

Does one preclude the other? The Watcher is a mighty asset for any faction and Atsura has a vested interest in keeping them on the RDC's side. Being amiable and dealing with the Watcher as kindred minds is something that's natural.

 

For the record, I never found Atsura to be particularly slimy. He's a strategist and a diplomat with an immense talent for dealing with people. It feels strange only because we can play a variety of characters and witness the different responses. Plus, consider the option that he's simply doing to you what you are doing to other NPCs: Choosing the option that has the highest chance of achieving the desired outcome.

 

I like the notion that a few of the characters you meet might very well have been protagonists in their own games (hypothetical). Eg. Ulysses in FNV, Atsura in PoE2, the throng of adventurers in PoE1... Makes the world feel more alive than just having you be the mover and shaker.

[Tick]

 

And yeah, it's extremely hard to tell if he's being manipulative or just trying to socialize, engage, and relate to you.

Does one preclude the other? The Watcher is a mighty asset for any faction and Atsura has a vested interest in keeping them on the RDC's side. Being amiable and dealing with the Watcher as kindred minds is something that's natural.

 

For the record, I never found Atsura to be particularly slimy. He's a strategist and a diplomat with an immense talent for dealing with people. It feels strange only because we can play a variety of characters and witness the different responses. Plus, consider the option that he's simply doing to you what you are doing to other NPCs: Choosing the option that has the highest chance of achieving the desired outcome.

 

I like the notion that a few of the characters you meet might very well have been protagonists in their own games (hypothetical). Eg. Ulysses in FNV, Atsura in PoE2, the throng of adventurers in PoE1... Makes the world feel more alive than just having you be the mover and shaker.

 

 

I like the protagonist feel of the characters too! And that's a fair point.  I think it somewhat depends on perspectives. E.g. I know people that pretty much think all forms of behavior that are adjusted or tailored to the person one is interacting with is manipulative.  I wouldn't agree with that (not saying that is or isn't how you feel). 

 

Manipulating someone and wanting to get along with them (including wanting to get along with them because you want something from them) don't necessarily have to be exclusive, but as someone that has had to deal a little with actively/abusively manipulative people, I think the difference matters.  There's being diplomatic/sociable/acting in a certain way for a certain end goal, and there's treating people like a tool and doing whatever you need to to get what you want.  You could argue the first one is manipulative, but I would say how truly manipulative it is depends on what the person's intent is and how much they care about their impact on their other person.  As the Watcher, yes, I try to say things in a way that would convince someone to think about something in a certain way or do something, but I usually do it in a way where I still consider and respect them as a person.  I'm not saying whatever it takes to get them to do what I want.  I can't imagine ever saying something undermining to Aloth to get him to act how I want, and I can't imagine telling the Onekaza, "Hey, Castol wants to kill you" because I want to get rid of Castol.  Extreme examples, but I can't think of more nuanced ones since I should be getting ready for work right now.

[Incendax]

Probably easier to think of manipulation as something neutral, instead of something negative. It’s just a skill set everyone uses, intentionally or otherwise, and many of those uses are sincere and interested in promoting good things like friendship or peaceful compromise. Captain Picard was amazing at manipulation. It all depends on what you use it for.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Incendax

[Tick]

Probably easier to think of manipulation as something neutral, instead of something negative. It’s just a skill set everyone uses, intentionally or otherwise, and many of those uses are sincere and interested in promoting good things like friendship or peaceful compromise. Captain Picard was amazing at manipulation. It all depends on what you use it for.

 

I have a hard time communicating and explaining my ideas and grievances on this general topic, but I'm going to try because I think it's important.

 

I get what you're saying, and I partially agree!  But I'm hesitant to lump making a convincing argument / partially behaving in a certain way for an end result and, again, using people as a tool.  Even if the behavior is similar (or the same).  Calling someone "manipulative" isn't a flattering comment, and not something I would call Picard.  Additionally, I find it disconcerting to put the two in the same category when I also see people acting so cavalier about damaging and (negatively) manipulative behavior.  E.g. The way people act about Kevin Spacey's character in House of Cards.  I know there's not really a better word or words to distinguish them, but it bugs me.

 

It's not just what it's used for, it's how it's done.  If a person did something that ended in a good result, but did it by using other people as tools, without respect for them as people, without caring about what they want or feel, without interest to the impact it had on them, I would argue that they did the wrong thing at worst and the right thing through an unethical choice or means at best.  

 

Someone trying and succeeding to convince you to change your opinion or do something, or someone partially changing their behavior to get along with you or change your mind, is not the same as someone knowingly pressing your buttons to get you to do what they want.  Atsura being unable to read social cues and trying his best to get along by acting how he thinks he's supposed to is not the same as Atsura knowing how you feel and think and twisting that to get you to do what he wants.  And, if Atsura is actually anti-social ("an intelligent/manipulative psychopath") and unable to empathize, that means he would probably be completely comfortable emotionally abusing, hurting, or killing people for his own interests.  That would not necessarily be the case for the first possibility.

 

I'm not saying all manipulation is bad, as we're using the term here, but there is a difference in the type of manipulation.  And it's not just the result the person manipulating is going for.

[bugarup]

I, too, have an interpretation similar to Tick's.

 

Not much of a Trekkie, but Cpt Picard seemed to simply have charisma. And charismatic people can influence (not the same as manipulate) other people easily because those other people look at high CHA person and think "Wow, they so nice I wouldn't mind doing them a favour or trying to see their point of view". Charismatic people also have this air of being genuinely interested in you and what you have to say, and I don't think it's all act; at least part of it must be genuine -- people are not all stupid and some of them would smell a fake.

 

Now Atsura, he has charisn'tma. But he is also enough of a megalomaniac to want to have all available tools for his Hazatoha game in Deadfire setting, so he tries to fake charisma with a little help of his mind readers; only he is not as intelligent as his fellow dispassionate chess masters Robert House of New Vegas and G0-T0 of KOTOR2, who both chose to be honest and work with what they had rather than make fools of themselves by trying to imitate something they have exactly zero grasp on, because -- unfortunately for Atsura -- charisma is a Je Ne Sais Quoi thing and his attempts at humanity are not that good, leaving people creeped out, suspicious and therefore less susceptible to do his bidding.

 

 

[handsomenat]

Overall I agree with your assessment bugarup but I don't know if I'd call Atsura a megalomaniac. I don't think he's very... self-obsessed. On the other hand he does seem to view the world as a game, his reaction to Watcher ****ing up his plans for Crookspur is why I interpret it as such.

[Incendax]

Not much of a Trekkie, but Cpt Picard seemed to simply have charisma. And charismatic people can influence (not the same as manipulate) other people easily because those other people look at high CHA person and think "Wow, they so nice I wouldn't mind doing them a favour or trying to see their point of view". Charismatic people also have this air of being genuinely interested in you and what you have to say, and I don't think it's all act; at least part of it must be genuine -- people are not all stupid and some of them would smell a fake.

Captain Picard certainly does have charisma, but we know he extensively practices his speeches in the privacy of his chambers. He knows he has these skills and talents, and intentionally leverages them in negotiations to achieve peaceful compromise. Maybe if he went in blind and relied on his natural charm alone you could claim he is not being manipulative, but his diplomatic efforts are intentional, calculated, and designed to appeal to his audience. Being sincere and manipulative can definitely overlap. It frequently does!

[Zap Gun For Hire]

Conversation between two NPC Rauataian Guards I just saw in the lower level of Imperial Command:

 

Guard #1: One minute he's all charm, then he cuts me down with a word.

Guard #2: I get along fine with him.  He's straightforward to me.

Guard #1: Are we talking about the same Atsura?

 

Even his fellow Rauataians are noticing how he acts differently to people depending on their temperament/disposition.

 

[Tick]

Conversation between two NPC Rauataian Guards I just saw in the lower level of Imperial Command:

 

Guard #1: One minute he's all charm, then he cuts me down with a word.

Guard #2: I get along fine with him.  He's straightforward to me.

Guard #1: Are we talking about the same Atsura?

 

Even his fellow Rauataians are noticing how he acts differently to people depending on their temperament/disposition.

 

I actually wanted to mention that!  But I forgot.  Very good observation.

 

This combined with some of the other things makes me lean more toward that he's being purposefully manipulative and calculating.  The way he treats people is completely dependent on the results he'll get from those people.