2H swords useless in PoTD after patch?

[JerekKruger]

as is the idea of using torches in dungeons

Unless you particularly enjoy choking on the smoke produced by torches, and replacing them every 30 minutes or so, they are indeed a terrible tool for use in dungeons (or indeed in any indoor situation, and most outdoor ones too).

 

And indeed, there are some historical instances of dual wielding but they are quite rare (and essentially never seen in battle, shields are just sooooo much better). Mostly something like sword and dagger, or dual dagger, the main purpose of the off-hand weapon would be defense. Windmilling around in a flurry of cuts would get you killed quite quickly, as would trying to wield eg. two axes (hatchets would work though). I mean, a second weapon is better than nothing in most cases, but it really never was a recommend tactic. Hence why off-hand weapons were often knives or daggers; like swords, they're sidearms, so if you're just out and about that's likely what you'd have at hand. Hardly going to drag around a shield all day after all (though a buckler would work).

Yep. I wish more games would recognise this. So often dual wielding is the best option whereas historically you pretty much always either used a two-handed weapon or a weapon and shield. Shields are incredibly useful.

[Loren Tyr]

Oh, no doubt, but a fairly fit person (anybody wielding a two handed weapon would be in shape) could swing said hammer with enough force to break bone.  During the winter I will go outside and chop wood to save on power about 2 times a week for 30 mins to an hour.  The difference in my ability to swing that axe from early winter to late winter is night and day.  Both from an efficiency standpoint and from a endurance standpoint.  If I were to hit anything living during the late winter months... well, it would do a number on them.  Armor or no.  You just get more force from using two hands, but like I said... I am not arguing for two handers to replace dual wield or even one handed style.  I just want a remotely even playing field.  Not this skewed playing field where it seems like your options are dual wield, ranged, or tank with a shield. 

 

 

I definitely agree there, it should be more balanced. Doesn't have to be perfectly realistic or anything, but some passing resemblance to reality would be nice. And I think, would also make the combat aspect more interesting. For example, factoring in the defensive capabilities of weapons more (eg. swords would definitely outclass axes and maces there, and two-handed weapons are generally good for that as well), the enormous value of reach, etc. Give weapons some more dimensions, which would also make them stronger or weaker depending on what weapons you're facing etc. And same with shields for that matter, those could also be differnentiated much more than just deflection bonuses and accuracy penalties (the latter don't really make sense anyway). And again for armour, would be nice if there was greater depth there (cause there was a reason dudes in plate armour rarely used shields, would be nice if that same logic could work in a game as well).

 

And with dual-wielding, I would say that should be restricted to a light off-hand weapon like daggers and hatchets and the like. Dual wielding swords (let alone axes) is just idiotic. And definitely, it should give some additional defense and offense (maybe have a certain chance of scoring a 'free' off-hand attack when defending with the main weapon, a bit like the Riposte ability), but certainly not increasing attack speed.

[dunehunter]

I still think great sword has an original pen of 6 is horrible, unusable for any class without +pen in PoTD.

 

Slash + pierce is a very very bad combo.

 

I think Savage Attack modal should gives +2 Pen. +30% damage is very bad in trade with 10 accuracy.

Edited June 5, 2018 by dunehunter

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I think 2 handers should have 2 higher pen than slow 1 handed melee weapons(fast 1 h should have 1 lower pen than slow 1 h) and that the dual damage weapons should not have the 1 pen penalty.

[grasida]

Savage attack’s damage modifier is multiplicative with other modifiers, right? I think all the modal modifiers are so. That makes it a really good damage boost as long as you have a decent chance to hit and can penetrate. At very high accuracy, great swords should even beat dual sabers as long as you aren’t using full attacks.

 

Everyone seems to agree that two handers are too weak compared to dual wield, and great swords look like the worst two handers. But for certain builds they might still be a good choice. If you have good pen, high accuracy and aren’t relying on unreplenishable class resources for damage (e.g. devoted/soul blade or some brawlers) great swords might be the best choice.

[dunehunter]

Savage attack’s damage modifier is multiplicative with other modifiers, right? I think all the modal modifiers are so. That makes it a really good damage boost as long as you have a decent chance to hit and can penetrate. At very high accuracy, great swords should even beat dual sabers as long as you aren’t using full attacks.

 

Everyone seems to agree that two handers are too weak compared to dual wield, and great swords look like the worst two handers. But for certain builds they might still be a good choice. If you have good pen, high accuracy and aren’t relying on unreplenishable class resources for damage (e.g. devoted/soul blade or some brawlers) great swords might be the best choice.

Additive.

[Arddv]

I think fighting style bonuses are a bit outdated and redundant concept. Of course, it feels good to have a passive that rewards you for doing what you would be doing anyways without any drawbacks. But it is overused and is not cool anymore. Full attacks should be a reward for dual wield in itself, there should be no speed bonus. Just like 2h should have better base damage and penetration.

 

As I see it fighting styles should be some modals that activate when you have a certain talent and a certain combination of weapons/shields equipped. And these techniques should not be availible for each combination, with several exotic ones even being progression-gated (taught by NPCs, learnt from ancient monasteries etc). Some weapons like daggers should not be able to attack in off-hand at all, just provide a relevant "sword and dagger style" bonus (for example +deflection and full attack riposte on grazes) and be used in full attacks.

[Hamhaus]

I feel like Backstab is the only reason why I should use a 2H weapon now, just for that bonus in damage.

[George_Truman]

2h is best for fighter/wizard which is pretty strong. Good primary attack abilities.

[anameforobsidian]

I've been pretty disappointed in my estoc on hard.  Lots of enemies aren't affected by it; the damage isn't that great, and finding new ones is very, very difficult compared to swords or sabres.  I jumped from a fine estoc (which I had to buy) to a superb estoc (which I also had to buy).  I would have switched to another weapon if I wasn't a Devoted.

[grasida]

 

Additive.

That's just miserable! Why shouldn't it be multiplicative?

 

I did some math and it looks like it will still be a damage increase, albeit a slight one, for most characters until you stack up pretty significant damage boosts through gear and abilities. By the time you're getting over +100% increased damage, savage attack starts to look bad, though it's still a boost if your accuracy is high. But that's not taking into account any reason you'd want a high hit rate than simple damage. Missing not only means you don't do damage, it also means you waste class resources when your abilities miss, and you don't land special effects attached to your strikes like interrupts or debuffs. This would be an interesting modal if the boost were multiplicative. You have to choose between damage or reliability and resource efficiency. As it is, it seems rare that many builds would want to use savage attack past the early game.

Edited June 6, 2018 by grasida

[Effusion]

I've been pretty disappointed in my estoc on hard.  Lots of enemies aren't affected by it; the damage isn't that great, and finding new ones is very, very difficult compared to swords or sabres.  I jumped from a fine estoc (which I had to buy) to a superb estoc (which I also had to buy).  I would have switched to another weapon if I wasn't a Devoted.

Devoted is definitely a meta knowledge based subclass. At least you didn't pick one of the weapon types that only has one unique.

[dunehunter]

 

 

Additive.

That's just miserable! Why shouldn't it be multiplicative?

 

I did some math and it looks like it will still be a damage increase, albeit a slight one, for most characters until you stack up pretty significant damage boosts through gear and abilities. By the time you're getting over +100% increased damage, savage attack starts to look bad, though it's still a boost if your accuracy is high. But that's not taking into account any reason you'd want a high hit rate than simple damage. Missing not only means you don't do damage, it also means you waste class resources when your abilities miss, and you don't land special effects attached to your strikes like interrupts or debuffs. This would be an interesting modal if the boost were multiplicative. You have to choose between damage or reliability and resource efficiency. As it is, it seems rare that many builds would want to use savage attack past the early game.

 

 

If you play on PoTD, I'd never recommend to use savage attack in early game, the accuracy is already very bad and u want to get -10 from savage?

[Awkward Davies]

Weapon styles are neither balanced, nor adhere to any internal logical framework.  (How does having an axe in the off hand make make the axe in my primary hand recover faster than someone wielding only an axe in the primary hand?)

[Loren Tyr]

Weapon styles are neither balanced, nor adhere to any internal logical framework.  (How does having an axe in the off hand make make the axe in my primary hand recover faster than someone wielding only an axe in the primary hand?)

 

Well, centrifugal force obviously. Axes are top-heavy, so proper dual-wielding technique for them is to spin around like a top, a veritable whirlwind of death. 

[Lokithecat]

 

I've been pretty disappointed in my estoc on hard.  Lots of enemies aren't affected by it; the damage isn't that great, and finding new ones is very, very difficult compared to swords or sabres.  I jumped from a fine estoc (which I had to buy) to a superb estoc (which I also had to buy).  I would have switched to another weapon if I wasn't a Devoted.

Devoted is definitely a meta knowledge based subclass. At least you didn't pick one of the weapon types that only has one unique.

 

 

Use Soul Bound weapons, you get all your + from devoted (at least your supposed to) and all of your specializations etc. should transfer.  Being stuck with one weapon type + every Soul Bound weapon, (Most aren't bad) is lots of variety.

[AndreaColombo]

Soulbound weapons incur the Devoted’s penalty unless you have the relevant proficiency. “Universal” isn’t quite universal in Deadfire.

[Lokithecat]

Soulbound weapons incur the Devoted’s penalty unless you have the relevant proficiency. “Universal” isn’t quite universal in Deadfire.

 

For a laugh, lookup (Journal / Cyclopedia / Equipment / Soul bound)  Looks like they just copy / pasted it from PoE1, and didn't bother any sort of programming to support it.  

[Alljix]

Weapons basically fall into penetration and speed categories with a bonus for each weapon category.  High penetration/dual damage type like scepter or warhammer have a lower base damage.  Low penetration/dual damage type have good base damage.  Low penetration/single damage type have the best base damage.

 

Imo the problem with two handed weapons isn't their penetration.  It's full attacks, which favor dual wielding, and their recovery time, which make the character far less reactive than characters dual wielding.  I was rather hoping to see many or most 1 resource full attacks nerfed to primary attacks for the sake of 2 handers (I'm sure much crying would ensue), but that hasn't happened.  Perhaps obsidian actually think 2 handers are good right now, maybe they have other ideas and they just didn't implement them.  Incidentally making full attacks into primary attacks would also buff single wielding and dual wielding a single ranged with a single melee.

 

 

 

I agree that full attack is the problem but taking it away would just reverse things and make dual-wield even more weak (cuz they won't even have the backstab niche). The extra speed from dual-wield is negated by 2 handed's stronger base attack but same recovery; however, 2 handed will now do more damage per ability/resources, making dual-wield pointless.

 

If you are just playing the damage game than one is always gonna be better if they are both just playing the same game, the better way would probably to give one style unique quirks, like sunder or aoe damage, etc. Penetration is not a bad idea cuz it's a bit more complex than just direct damage. Or make dual-wield incur a accuracy penalty, to reflect the fact that dual-wielding is hard to master and use properly. Then again, the same can be said of huge heavy bulky weapons, which is why neither is used all the much in actual wars and life and death combat, with pikes/spears being preferred in wars and lighter blades being preferred in duels.

 

 

Pretty much, but they have been underperforming since release. Two major parts I just do not get is:

 

1. Why does two handed weapons not have higher penetration across the board? Just the sheer weight of a greatsword swing can crack ribs and cause concussions. Don't even need to cut. So why is as effective as slashing at armor with a normal sized sword? 

2. Why are weapons with two damage types penalized with lower penetration in general. Is that not supposed to be their niche? Why are they penalized for their "unique traits" in comparison to other "pure" weapons with bonuses and a higher base pen?

 

So ya, the 2+ armor to enemies in addition to the nerf to the helmet that reduces 2h weapon recovery just has me making question marks all over it. 

 

Yeah but their sheer weight should also make them hit and recover slower (with the slower swings making them less likely to hit), but they don't. Dual-wielding don't count, since that is a speed bonus associated with the fighting style, not the weapons.

 

Weapon styles are neither balanced, nor adhere to any internal logical framework.  (How does having an axe in the off hand make make the axe in my primary hand recover faster than someone wielding only an axe in the primary hand?)

 

It doesn't recover faster, it actually makes your main hand recover slower cuz now it has to wait until the off-hand hits before it can hit again. Dual-wield attacks faster cuz you attack with main hand then off-hand, not because it makes main-hand faster. The reason why your off-hand can hit before someone who only has one axe can make 2 attacks is because of centrifugal force and because you can start the attack of your off-hand before your main-hand even finishes. Or you know, you can just attack with both of them at the same time.

 

 

Weapons basically fall into penetration and speed categories with a bonus for each weapon category.  High penetration/dual damage type like scepter or warhammer have a lower base damage.  Low penetration/dual damage type have good base damage.  Low penetration/single damage type have the best base damage.

 

Imo the problem with two handed weapons isn't their penetration.  It's full attacks, which favor dual wielding, and their recovery time, which make the character far less reactive than characters dual wielding.  I was rather hoping to see many or most 1 resource full attacks nerfed to primary attacks for the sake of 2 handers (I'm sure much crying would ensue), but that hasn't happened.  Perhaps obsidian actually think 2 handers are good right now, maybe they have other ideas and they just didn't implement them.  Incidentally making full attacks into primary attacks would also buff single wielding and dual wielding a single ranged with a single melee.

 

I agree that full attack is the problem but taking it away would just reverse things and make dual-wield even weaker (cuz they won't even have the backstab niche). The extra speed from dual-wield is negated by 2 handed's stronger attack but same recovery but 2 handed will do more damage per ability/resources, making dual-wield pointless. If you are just playing the damage game than one is always gonna be better if they are both just playing the same game, the better way would probably to give one style unique quriks, like sunder or aoe damage, etc. Penetration is not a bad idea cuz it's a bit more complex than just direct damage.

 

 

Pretty much, but they have been underperforming since release. Two major parts I just do not get is:

 

1. Why does two handed weapons not have higher penetration across the board? Just the sheer weight of a greatsword swing can crack ribs and cause concussions. Don't even need to cut. So why is as effective as slashing at armor with a normal sized sword? 

2. Why are weapons with two damage types penalized with lower penetration in general. Is that not supposed to be their niche? Why are they penalized for their "unique traits" in comparison to other "pure" weapons with bonuses and a higher base pen?

 

So ya, the 2+ armor to enemies in addition to the nerf to the helmet that reduces 2h weapon recovery just has me making question marks all over it. 

 

Yeah but their sheer weight should also make them hit and recover slower, but they don't. Dual-wielding don't count, since that is a speed bonus associated with the fighting style, not the weapon.

 

Weapon styles are neither balanced, nor adhere to any internal logical framework.  (How does having an axe in the off hand make make the axe in my primary hand recover faster than someone wielding only an axe in the primary hand?)

 

It doesn't recover, it actually makes your main hand axe recover slower cuz now it has to wait until the off-hand hits before it can hit again. Dual-wield attack faster cuz you attack with main hand then off-hand, not because it makes main-hand faster. The reason why your off-hand can hit before someone who only has one axe can make 2 attacks is because of centrifugal force and because you can start the attack of your off-hand before your main-hand even finishes, or you know, attack with both of them at the same time.

 

[dunehunter]

It is make your main hand recover faster. Your full attack abilities uses offhand weapon recovery. So if u have a dagger in offhand, u can spam full attacks ability very fast.

Edited August 5, 2018 by dunehunter

[Boeroer]

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