Is Pillars of Eternity II men hating pro feminist game.

[PsychoBlonde]

Well, I'm a man-hating* feminist and I loved it! So I guess that means it must be SJW propaganda of some kind, since everyone knows us feminists despise all other forms of entertainment.

 

So I guess you shouldn't buy the DLC.

 

 

 

*No not really.

 

On the other hand, how will we ever get the game enshrined as an Official Object of Controversy this way?

[Selky]

Not really? The only Obsidian game that I've detected feminist vibes in was Tyranny, literally every woman in that game was snarky, obnoxious and permanently had their hands attached to their hips.

[Yosharian]

Why can't a god be female?  Why can't the most powerful gods be female?  Why can't the most ugly, least likeable gods be male?

 

Such things can be evidence of an agenda if they are employed along with other, more concrete things, but alone?  No.

 

For example, if Magran started bitching about Skaen mansplaining something to her, or if Hylea started accusing the player of employing the male gaze while eyeing up a romance interest, or if Eder began self-flagellating on account of his white male privilege, or if Pallegina accused the player of being subconsciously racist upon not inviting her to the party...

 

If any of those things happened, then I might take another look at the sex of Deadfire's gods with a bit more suspicion.

 

But none of those things are in the game, so I have no reason to assume that Magran being female, for example, is motivated by an agenda, rather than it merely being chance, or something that fitted the character, or an aesthetic decision, or any number of perfectly fine creative choices taken by the developers.

 

Not that you genuinely care either way, since you're just a sad little troll trying to stir up trouble, rather than the barnstorming intellectual you probably think you are in your mind.

[injurai]

Societies around the world have had open "woman hating" in their art and dogma for a long time. Right up into the modern age of media art. It should not be surprising that as woman develop a stronger voice in media, that the corollary may creep in. In a rpg, such things are likely to be existential in-universe depictions. However, your examples seem to be based on projection no?

Edited May 27, 2018 by injurai

[dukeisaac]

To the OP, addressing an issue/idea/concept/ideology in a game isn't propaganda. How about you leave your parent's basement and start living in the real world, where *gasp* people might see things differently than you ?

 

Honestly, I can't believe this thread hasn't been shutdown yet. Either the OP is trolling or a paranoic mysoginist with no grasp of reality.

[Yonjuro]

To the OP, addressing an issue/idea/concept/ideology in a game isn't propaganda. How about you leave your parent's basement and start living in the real world, where *gasp* people might see things differently than you ?

 

Honestly, I can't believe this thread hasn't been shutdown yet. Either the OP is trolling or a paranoic mysoginist with no grasp of reality.

 

 It's better to have the discussion. Shutting it down makes it look like you don't have an argument and this one wasn't even difficult.

 

 I don't know if the OP is a troll or a misogynist or none of the above but we can let the arguments stand or fall based on the facts. 

[Purudaya]

Not really? The only Obsidian game that I've detected feminist vibes in was Tyranny, literally every woman in that game was snarky, obnoxious and permanently had their hands attached to their hips.

 

And every man in that game was a colossal douchebag - those aren't "feminist vibes," those are female characters that are off-putting. Women, like men, are people and can therefore be depicted as aggressive, obnoxious, or otherwise flawed without that having anything to do with feminism, social justice, or the gender of the person they're talking to. 

 

 

OP's post should never have been given the dignity of a response; it was literally just designed to stoke conflict and attempt to reinforce tired alt-right gamergate fragility and reactivity as the default perspective. Also, mods everywhere might want to consider adding "SJW" to their language filters. Would eliminate a ton of ****posts.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Purudaya

[dukeisaac]

 

To the OP, addressing an issue/idea/concept/ideology in a game isn't propaganda. How about you leave your parent's basement and start living in the real world, where *gasp* people might see things differently than you ?

 

Honestly, I can't believe this thread hasn't been shutdown yet. Either the OP is trolling or a paranoic mysoginist with no grasp of reality.

 

 It's better to have the discussion. Shutting it down makes it look like you don't have an argument and this one wasn't even difficult.

 

 I don't know if the OP is a troll or a misogynist or none of the above but we can let the arguments stand or fall based on the facts. 

 

I agree with you that ignoring this type of conversation lets it fester and just creates more hatred/frustration. That being said, the OP has little to no argument, so I don't see the point in engaging it with any semblance of dialogue. You don't negotiate with cancer, you treat it. Hating half the population because of its gender is a cancer.

[Yonjuro]

 

 

To the OP, addressing an issue/idea/concept/ideology in a game isn't propaganda. How about you leave your parent's basement and start living in the real world, where *gasp* people might see things differently than you ?

 

Honestly, I can't believe this thread hasn't been shutdown yet. Either the OP is trolling or a paranoic mysoginist with no grasp of reality.

 

 It's better to have the discussion. Shutting it down makes it look like you don't have an argument and this one wasn't even difficult.

 

 I don't know if the OP is a troll or a misogynist or none of the above but we can let the arguments stand or fall based on the facts. 

 

I agree with you that ignoring this type of conversation lets it fester and just creates more hatred/frustration. That being said, the OP has little to no argument, so I don't see the point in engaging it with any semblance of dialogue. You don't negotiate with cancer, you treat it. Hating half the population because of its gender is a cancer.

 

 

 

  The OP answered my question and I responded to the answer. Anyone reading this thread can see the discussion and judge the merits of both arguments. If you believe that the OP has little to no argument, then you should want him to expose his weak argument to everyone.

 

 If you are going to label someone else's opinion as cancer and declare it off limits, it will sound, to a lot of people,  like you think that opinion is too dangerous, i.e., that it is so solid that you don't have an argument against it.

 

 That is both a terrible strategy (for reasons I can elaborate on, if you wish) and an invitation to others to shut down your opinion when they have the power to do so.

[Purudaya]

 

 

 

To the OP, addressing an issue/idea/concept/ideology in a game isn't propaganda. How about you leave your parent's basement and start living in the real world, where *gasp* people might see things differently than you ?

 

Honestly, I can't believe this thread hasn't been shutdown yet. Either the OP is trolling or a paranoic mysoginist with no grasp of reality.

 

 It's better to have the discussion. Shutting it down makes it look like you don't have an argument and this one wasn't even difficult.

 

 I don't know if the OP is a troll or a misogynist or none of the above but we can let the arguments stand or fall based on the facts. 

 

I agree with you that ignoring this type of conversation lets it fester and just creates more hatred/frustration. That being said, the OP has little to no argument, so I don't see the point in engaging it with any semblance of dialogue. You don't negotiate with cancer, you treat it. Hating half the population because of its gender is a cancer.

 

 

 

  The OP answered my question and I responded to the answer. Anyone reading this thread can see the discussion and judge the merits of both arguments. If you believe that the OP has little to no argument, then you should want him to expose his weak argument to everyone.

 

 If you are going to label someone else's opinion as cancer and declare it off limits, it will sound, to a lot of people,  like you think that opinion is too dangerous, i.e., that it is so solid that you don't have an argument against it.

 

 That is both a terrible strategy (for reasons I can elaborate on, if you wish) and an invitation to others to shut down your opinion when they have the power to do so.

 

 

Respectfully, this is the same logic that drives CNN to give climate scientists and climate change deniers equal time on their broadcast. Some arguments are undeservedly elevated and legitimized simply by engaging with them: by extending the same platform to a flat-earther that you extend to an astrophysicist, you risk amplifying the former rather than diminishing it.

 

Not all opinions are created equal, and OP's isn't exactly new. We've HAD this debate - there's no need to have it again every time someone washes ashore from 8chan with cultural provocation and division-mongering on their agenda.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Purudaya

[Yonjuro]

 

 

 

 

To the OP, addressing an issue/idea/concept/ideology in a game isn't propaganda. How about you leave your parent's basement and start living in the real world, where *gasp* people might see things differently than you ?

 

Honestly, I can't believe this thread hasn't been shutdown yet. Either the OP is trolling or a paranoic mysoginist with no grasp of reality.

 

 It's better to have the discussion. Shutting it down makes it look like you don't have an argument and this one wasn't even difficult.

 

 I don't know if the OP is a troll or a misogynist or none of the above but we can let the arguments stand or fall based on the facts. 

 

I agree with you that ignoring this type of conversation lets it fester and just creates more hatred/frustration. That being said, the OP has little to no argument, so I don't see the point in engaging it with any semblance of dialogue. You don't negotiate with cancer, you treat it. Hating half the population because of its gender is a cancer.

 

 

 

  The OP answered my question and I responded to the answer. Anyone reading this thread can see the discussion and judge the merits of both arguments. If you believe that the OP has little to no argument, then you should want him to expose his weak argument to everyone.

 

 If you are going to label someone else's opinion as cancer and declare it off limits, it will sound, to a lot of people,  like you think that opinion is too dangerous, i.e., that it is so solid that you don't have an argument against it.

 

 That is both a terrible strategy (for reasons I can elaborate on, if you wish) and an invitation to others to shut down your opinion when they have the power to do so.

 

 

This is the same logic that drives CNN to give climate scientists and climate change deniers equal time on their broadcast. Some arguments are undeservedly elevated and legitimized simply by engaging with them: by extending the same platform to a flat-earther that you extend to an astrophysicist, you risk amplifying the former rather than diminishing it.

 

Not all opinions are created equal, and OP's isn't exactly new. We've HAD this debate - there's no need to have it again every time someone washes ashore from 8chan with cultural provocation and division-mongering on their agenda.

 

 

 It isn't the same as giving equal time. You don't need to give equal time, you can ask for the argument and dismantle it with facts taking however much time you need. 

 

 You don't need to engage in the discussion if you don't want to but censoring ideas you disagree with is a bad idea. The same rules that allow you to censor others allow others to censor you when they are in power (if, hypothetically speaking, you are on the political left in the US, you should be acutely aware of why that is a bad idea at the present time). 

 

 In addition, if you force someone to shut up, you make it look like you can't come up with an argument. That's probably because you have never learned to argue and, if you censor everybody you disagree with, you never will. 

[TheisEjsing]

Hah. What utter nonsense. The gods were created by a people let by a man. Judas was a woman, and Rymrgand is the most powerful deity. All the most horny characters are women, and you get boons for prostitutions, and a female hooker will even **** you for free if you got 19 con. An most male companions are real men in the classical sense. Yes, go feminism!

Edited May 27, 2018 by TheisEjsing

[Yonjuro]

Hah. What utter nonsense. The gods were created by a people let by a man. Judas was a woman, and Rymrgand is the most powerful deity. All the most horny characters are women, and you get boons for prostitutions, and a female hooker will even **** you for free if you got 19 con. Yes, go feminism!

 

 

 What?!?? Oh, crap, I've been doing feminism all wrong ....

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

...

 

 You are free to dislike the game, but Obsidian is not responsible for whatever craziness exists in the world, both real and imagined. They are certainly not responsible for how you imagine a hypothetical group of people would have reacted had the game been different.

 

 To your specific criticism, in this world there are  5 male deities, 4 female deities, 1 deity with no identifiable gender and 1 twinned deity with a male aspect and female aspect. This mirrors many real world religions but you are, of course, free to be offended by any of it. 

 

 What do you think is the is the problem with the above setup and how would you fix it?

 

Most gods that you see and talk to in the game are female and berath almost exclusively uses Pallid knight form, ugliest or most hideous god is male,

 

 You mentioned Skaen earlier. You also meet Abydon, Galawain, Rymrgand and, of course, Eothas. In addition, Ondra would give Skaen a run for for his money in the ugliest god competition. You are seeing what you expect to see not what is there.

Woedica's *entire body* is covered with fresh burns. She looks a lot like Freddy Kruger. Just sayin'...

Edited May 27, 2018 by Katarack21

[Boeroer]

 

 

I think this is valid topic to have conversation

 

I don't.

 

I win.

[ArnoldRimmer]

Short answer: no

 

Long answer: nnnnnoooooooo

 

Some people really need to switch off their laptops and try living in the real world

[drael6464]

Well I wouldn't say the game is 'man hating', but there is definately a progressive political lens, compared to the first game. 
It's made with a conciousness of those particular ideologies. I wouldn't say it's quite star wars hatred of classical thinking level, but there are anti-traditionalist, pro-progress, anti-religious, anti-commerce, anti-colonial, anti-caste themes, drips of intersectionality - the tribalism is through a species metaphor, and doesn't exist at the racial level, the impact of bio sex on behaviour is minimised (which it always is to some degree in some fantasy, but moreso in poe2 and dragon age, than forgotten realms or conan). I got a hint of a transgender type of subplot with one of the companions as well, and some environmentalism too. 

 

Xoti is a bit of an exception, because she's warm. I think she might be the only warm or vulnerable female NPC I encountered in the game. For whatever reason though, she's very flirty but I was never able to produce a full romantic relationship with her. Might be a bug, IDK, or perhaps you need 5 reputation or something or maybe that's how they intended it. But warm and or vulnerable is a big no no in feminist inspired writing, so it's not _entirely_ progressive. 

 

I am not sure what the source of these is - the creative team, the backer process, the gaming media and the modern establishment, or some combination but it exists. Some people will like that, others will not. For me, I am just not sure it's a direction that is conscious of it's broader audience.

 

I think it's still a great game, and because of the focus on choice, the player doesn't need to align with these ways of thinking. So apart from some awkward flirting, or some preachy dialogue, you don't _have_ to take that route. I don't know that this was anything conscious however. 

 

TBH, it's hard to write moral tales for the modern audience. You have this increasing political divide, with the new right, new centrists and then progressives, and they have completely different ideas what makes a moral right. How do you write to that? 

 

But I think this is an element that gives some players pause. It's not however the biggest criticism I could level at the game (which would be the ending, that lacks any features of a normal story - character faces challenge, character grows, character overcomes challenge - here the character feels more like a witness than a participant in the main story arc - in the side stories, not so much, there you participant fully, and grow, and so do the NPCs and the world). It's a story based game, and there is some good writing, but the main arc feels more like a setup for a future game, than a story unto itself. 

Edited May 27, 2018 by drael6464

[TheisEjsing]

TBH, it's hard to write moral tales for the modern audience. You have this increasing political divide, with the new right, new centrists and then progressives, and they have completely different ideas what makes a moral right. How do you write to that? 

You don't. You write however you want to. It's your prerogative as an artist. And it's fiction so you don't have to care about anyone in particular. 

[LaptiStyle]

Well, I agree.

I don't remember a strong AND positive male charcter in the game.

Director of VTC - weak and not so good, his female assistant is strong no doubt

Qeen - exceptional for her nation, her brother is just a stupid warrior

Furrante - strong evil, Eldis (?) - strong and "freedom, democracy etc" thing

Sefaren and Tekehu - both empty-hedead clowns opposite to Palegina and Maya

Poko Kohara leader - weak, priest - evil, priestess - strong even without any reason or backround

Koiki tribe leader - ofc female

Leader of silver stars - female, priestess - female, piligrim - female, bad_guy_that_kill_Eder's_boy - evil

Strong animancers - all female, dead or in trouble - male

So we don't have manly mans but have a lot manly womans

[DaKatarn]

The first pillars was correct on this point: no intense SJW propaganda IMO (maybe just the Sagani' story with her role of hunter and her husband who stay at home for the children but it's light) and I LIKE THAT SO MUCH.

 

Medieval-fantasy and CRPG are historically more traditional universes drawing from the soul of the former European myths and it's what I like, it's the old soul of our civilization like a good walk in a deep ancient forest.

 

I hate every propaganda in any cultural media so the recent wave of SJW forced propaganda in RPG is a really pain in my heart: Mass Effect Andromeda, Dragon Age Inquisition or the add of Enhanced Edition for the great Baldur's Gate.

 

It's ridiculous not  a progress. This SJW propaganda dessert its own cause like an agression because it's artificial, often illogical and immersion breacker so much.

 

This propaganda has many consequences which are going to impoverish the whole game for ideological reasons: no too beautifull female NPC (what a shame and irony, the first power of any lady is her feminity...) and an aseptic, smoother universes, without soul, moralizer and forgotten like Dragon Age Inquisition. An empty carcass.

 

SJW propaganda is a fraud because the goal is the permanent crying about oppression or scandal so scandal or opression MUST BE SEEN OF EVERYWHERE. It's endless like a good old dungeon because without "oppresion" or "scandal" SJW aren't any more right to be, it is their fuel.

 

Even in a game without any male, any white people, SJW will tear between them like the "Enraged faction of Robespierre during the French Revolution".

 

Free of speach is sacred for me but I don't like any totalitarian thought imposing a moral order with sin and inquisition... It's a serious debate and ty for this no-troll thread.

 

I'm feminist but this actual SJW madness isn't feminism it's hate and will of destruction about the traditional soul of Occident, values and beauty.

Edited May 27, 2018 by DaKatarn

[AgentTBC]

This thread is insane and should have been deleted or locked immediately.  No good can come of it.

 

Also, "I'm a feminist but..." is the new "I'm no racist but...".

[DaKatarn]

This thread is insane and should have been deleted or locked immediately.  No good can come of it.

 

Also, "I'm a feminist but..." is the new "I'm no racist but...".

 Well done Inquisitor, censorship is your only answer?  The stake is smelling? We are all adults here and we can discuss with respect for a positive way I hope.

 

We can be feminist whitout being SJW...It's the deal of the nuance and any intellectual reflection. Why to ignore all my post for quote just one line with an unfounded accusation to demonized me with moral position and censorship for only answer?

 

It's more easy apparently to say "It's not what I want to hear, burn them all!!!". It's not tolerant and it's a pity.

Edited May 27, 2018 by DaKatarn

[Yonjuro]

This thread is insane and should have been deleted or locked immediately.  No good can come of it.

 

 

Several people have said that. Why is it a problem to discuss an idea, even a bad idea (or, maybe, especially a bad idea)? Seriously, have you read the arguments against the points of the OP? What are you concerned about? Do you think that people can't understand an argument and come to a reasonable conclusion?  Do you not understand that censorship has the opposite effect from what you want it to have? Do you just not understand that if you can censor someone else, then others will censor you?

[drael6464]

This thread is insane and should have been deleted or locked immediately.  No good can come of it.

 

Also, "I'm a feminist but..." is the new "I'm no racist but...".

 

Well, as feminists are fond of mentioning, there are different forms of feminism that intersectionality, patriarchy theory and gender relativism. Equity feminism ascribes to none of those theories, and differs significantly from the modern cultural establishment. Likewise there are other forms of feminism that believe in biological "realism", or don't ascribe to intersectionality in terms of classes. So whilst it might be uncommon, I don't see how that's an invalid statement.

 

But hey I don't think people should be apologizing for their POV - ie, people feel they have to prefix their statements that way, because to diverge from the orthodoxy is to be regarded as an alt-right, transphobic, sexist, racist, Nazi by some of the less cool heads on the left. But I don't think they should use those prefixes. Just say it, and don't apologize. Haters going to hate. 

[Archaven]

Now that we live in the era of Ultra feminism and internet is full of SJW #metoo stuff. I have to ask is this game pro feminist men hating propaganda, because almost all of the gods and powerful figures are depicted as female and ugliest god skaen in his rotting appearance is male. Narrative is also voiced by woman. Sure if those roles were reversed that almost all of the gods and powerful figures were male and those few ugly ones were female, all pro feminist SJW would be up in arms and polygon and some other medias would be twittering accusing this game of women hating chauvinism .

 

i don't think it's men hating but i partially agree that obsidian pander to SJW. first off what's wrong with the female paperdoll model of first poe? why do they need to make female looks flat? and on the contrary if you see male model, they are muscular. such irony? also not to mentioned all the gods looks awfully ugly. magran, woedica and even hylea for ffs!. hylea should be a god of beauty and they portray her to look so ugly.

 

if anything, this game is not pro feminist but anti feminist. obsidian again being steered towards fake feminism. who told you that strong women are about looking ugly and being more like men? obsidian stop mixing entertainment with politics. look at star wars how the game was ruined by SJW. i love poe and the moment i noticed this i was so disappointed and angry with obsidian.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Archaven