Tanuvein

Exactly how sloppy it is seems to be your own conclusion. I've already addressed why I disagree with you on how interesting and powerful it is... but it is in no way sloppy. I'm not saying this because I need to justify buying the game - I play games with no story at all, and am pleased with that purchas - but because its true. Writing also has nothing to do with appreciating and understanding stories more. As I've noted, some of the worst writing I've read is professional, and I've read some that will never get published that is fantastic. Just because someone isn't a writer doesn't mean they can't - I'm sure there is someone here who has never even tried to get a book published that could possible blow us all away with their fictional writing. There are people here who are competent, poissibly more intelligent than you, who do not write - but they could just as easily understand it far better than you, and some, in fact, have shown that they do.

Well, Disciple's personality is whiny and annoying and egocentric (from what little I saw), and Jolee is a thousand times hotter. He's a very good looking man, in terms of polygonal people. And he's just funny.

I just feel the need to point out that the best fictional written I've seen was in fact a video game, Planescape: Torment. And I've read many a story, and published a few myself, that were total and unabashful crap. I originally had a point, but I forgot it... so um.... Hello to you all

That's because Yoda has chubby fingers and can't type 'givelightside 100'

Actually, it seems teh majority of people here KotOR II more than the first. Probably why they still post.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here. For your first point, Kreia actually does (or at least, can) say something perfectly supporting your idea. I am paraphrasing here "I don't care if you help people or make them weak. It is good to make people weak, because it gives you strength. But don't delude yourself, don't think you are doing them good. You are simply making yourself stronger." And in no way does Kreia become the Sith cruelty in the end. She even tells you that she is here to strengthen you, to make you stronger. She says that this fight against her is your final test, the thing you need to do to make you the perfect warrior. The game has a wide variety of possiblities: It truly is a well crafted literary gem. It disproves shallow thought that video games cannot be deep or intellectual, the same way people probably once thought movies or music could not be intellectual. I thought it was very interesting how it played that you should gain the strengths of other to be the Superman. That is, in fact, best played out when you are in fact gray: You do not weaken yourself by doing good because you think its right, nor do you weaken yourself with base desires for destruction.

Well, whoever had the child out of us would probably die. I'm a guy, so you know. I'd go for Bao-Dur. He's voice is soothing, he's incredibly intelligent, which is a must, he's loyal and he has a strong will and compassionate personality. The perfect guy

Again, I still don't see these leaps of logic or plot holes. I wrote professionally, I love to read and have an extensive library - its not like storytelling is unfamiliar to me - and don't really see any leaps of logic at all.

Couple of episodes from the end. She's in the episode and kinda wakes Angel up to what is going on. It's the one where everyone thinks she has woken up from the coma , but right at the very end Angel gets a phonecall to say that she died and never woke up <spooky music here> <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I somehow forgot about that

I wouldn't say the first few seasons were about justice or fairness at all, but rather how, despite trying for redemption, evil can corrupt and destroy. Never were the good guys ever on the winning side. Season 1 was very episodic and still trying to find its own style. Season 2, Angel was responsible for more cruelty than most other characters in the show. I don't think the 'life is hard, we'll do what we can' changed at all. Because life was still hard. And what did they do? Everything they could. They destroyed Wolfram and Hart's hold on the world, at least for a good time. And that's the best you can do. Evil will never be destroyed, no more than good, and one side can never triumph permanantly over the other. The best you can do is make the world better for a while. What unresolved plot lines are you talking about, by the way? And the Circle of Black Thorns had been hinted at since the beginning of the season. I wouldn't say Wes died pointlessly and stupidly, but I would have preferred to see it more elaborate. However, this ties into my next point: Fred's soul was destroyed? What? Did you watch the show? Illyria, the evil hell demon, became more and more human BECAUSE of Fred's soul. She learned to care, to fight for something greater than herself, and ultimately to love... she wanted revenge for Wes' death, and his falling showed how much she had grown. And who says Spike and Angel are damned to hell? Spike considers himself redeemed. The only person who thinks Angel needs to keep suffering and struggling for redemption was Angel himself. As for Lindsey, the fact Angel hated him probably had something to do with it. Angel had no problem killing people he hated, especially if he thought it was for the best. Sure, sometimes he tried to redeem people... but not all the time. He loved Darla, once, in an evil sort of way. That's why he tried for her. He intended to murder Holtz until the man said he wanted the best for Connor and that he'd leave (tricksy bastard), he intended to murder Wes for taking Connor even though Wes obviously did what he thought was right. When did Cordy die? I never saw that. When the show ends, she's still being cared for elsewhere as far as I knew. Also, how was the pregnancy the worst plot device ever? It made perfect sense.

You liked the ending of Buffy more than that of Angel? That's shocking... Angel's ending was purely fantastic, and it fit the entire mood of the series and the personality of the characters. I loved every minute of Angel's ending. And KotOR I isn't really about redemption, because you can be pretty evil - I know, last time I played through, I was probably quite a bit more needlessly malevolent than pre-mind-raped Revan.

Actually, Bao-Dur explained to me the Shadow Generator about half way through the game.

1) The pain he felt was not the fact he killed or fought in wars, but the fact he felt thousands of deaths at once through the Force. The pain he felt was from being disconected from that power. It never says he felt guilty about the deaths themselves. The game also never says the Exile forgot what happened, was trying to, or that he didn't know what the Shadow Generator is. This is typical story telling... the main character always knows more than the reader. Its your part to piece it together based on what you see and hear. Having everything explained to you is what weak story telling is. I find it odd you complain about other cliches, yet want hte main character to have amnesia? That is the largest cliche ever. I really thought it was innovative and enjoyable to be able to develop and control your characters backstory as well as present one. That's true RPing there (or at least as close as most games have reached so far) 2) This game is not about good and evil. Having Atton be 'evil' would have really ruined the focus of the story - that both malevolent and benevolent acts can produce both positive and negative results. That there is no real good or evil, simply what you percieve. Sith soldiers didn't join the Sith because they were evil or because they wanted to see people suffer (though Atton did say he enjoyed this), simply because it was a job and they could do it and believed in what they were doing. I know many vets who did these things, tortured and murdered, enjoyed it, and are perfectly stable members of society. They also LOVE to talk your ear off about all the adventures they had, both good and bad. Sure, they could have made him a Sith Lord too, but that would have been strange considering how you got him into your party. And he wasn't seeking for redemption, really. He did what he had to. Sure, he felt bad about killing her, but he thought it was neccessary and still does. Handmaiden goes with you because her mother was a Jedi, and she sees the same power in you (and Atris made her). She wants to understand it, and feel it. And both her and Mira follow you because you ARE a natural born leader. If you were such a strong individual that attracted people, it would be strange if you never attracted followers throughout the game. 3) I partially agree with you here. The ending did satisfy most of the plot, and though some things could have used a better elaboration, they WERE explained. I disagree that hte story was not strong or emotional. It was certainly strong on the basis of what is wrong and right. I also felt emotionally attached to my companions by the end of the game. Not everything has to be love and sacrifice to be satisfying. I do agree the ending was a bit lackluster though... it simply didn't have the depth or emotional strength that the rest of the development held. The main plot itself, ignoring hte underlying moral plot, was decent. However, this is a game, not a book. Its about interaction, combat and role playing, not neccessarily the main story. Its the smaller side stories that tend to make RPGs exceptional, since you control and develop them. Sure, it could also have made the main plot more complex, but that's not the story they were trying to tell. It would have only gotten in the way.

Actually, I figured the reason the Ebon Hawk crashed was the reason all the other ships had crashed on there and everyone had died - the Mass Shadow Generator.

Try looking beyond the words into the meanings of the code. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I am trying. Even better - I am looking to the members of the Jedi council trying to gent a nexample from them. And what I see - they are pompous, arrogant, untollerant, unforgiving. Or they are more Jedi then the other Jedi and that's why they are allowed to behave in such manner? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They are practically fallen because they are arrogant, intolerant and unforgiving. They've lost what it is to be Jedi, that's why you don't get dark points for telling them no - they are practically raping you. Also, its not being impulsive to help people. That's consistent. Its what Jedi do.

Episode III might actually be good. Episode 1 was horrible, 2 was good except for the pathetically immature romance part... which Episode III doesn't have. Here's hoping!

Glad to find someone that thinks like me. Most people don't get past the hate/anger clich

No, it wasn't the police - you got your car for 40 bucks from the local car dump <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I wish I had to pay 500

I couldn't agree more. I wish you had some [Lie] dialogue options with your companions, so you can say nice things you don't mean to win influence with the ones who lean to the light side, rather than have to mean it an get LSP or be petty and nasty to them. There was a nice line in the first game by I think one of the merchants on Korriban about how just because someone was Sith they didn't have to be a thug. I wish both games had let you do that, it could have worked really well with the influence, corrupt your companions not just be mean to them. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You make an excellent point. I haven't played fully through with a dark side character yet (probably will in a month or two), but I always thought that I should be able to tell my companions what they want to hear, if for no other reason than to gain their trust. Now, I always like to play my character as loyal to his or her friends, so I have no problem taking the minor hits to my dark sidedness in order to gain influence or just plain be nice with no rewards. My friend played his game that way, never being an ****, but always being evil, and he got full darkside with no problems, though it did fluctate away from that at times. They aren't clones, they just all have the same mother and father. THE Handmaiden has a different mother from them, thus why she looks different.

No, if the police has the reason to take my car, it has no right to give it to some policemen to drive it, neither they have any rights of ownership and they (of course) cannot sell it. Who the hell told you the police can sell the cars in detention? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The fact that they do it all the time? Its how I got my car for cheap.

Bad Tanuvein. No Carth-Atton escapades for you. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Aw, but they are made for each other!

No, it is not. Atris is not the council. She is/was just one of them. And even if she is the council, a Jedi lightsaber is a private thing. It either belongs to the Jedi, or don't belong to anyone else. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I wasn't talking about hte Jedi Masters Council, but the judging council. She was on that. You surrendered it to them, and they obviously let her take it. In any event, it wasn't yours any more. They were allowed to give it to anyone they wanted. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No. Exactly in the event you put in in the stone. You didn't give it to the council. If someone revokes my driving license and I leave my car no matter where, it doesn't mean the guy who revoked my driving license has the right to take my car. And besides - no one nowhere tells the council gave the saber to the Atris. Even Atris says "I took it..." No one takes my lightsaber and lives to use it! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But of the police take your car, they have the right to (and usually do) sell it or keep it or do whatever. Because its not yours. Its theirs. So its not your lightsaber, its theirs. And she can take it if she wants to. Because its not yours. As the poster above me said, they asked you to give up your lightsaber, and you did. They didn't take away your right to use one or make one again if you wished too.

No, it is not. Atris is not the council. She is/was just one of them. And even if she is the council, a Jedi lightsaber is a private thing. It either belongs to the Jedi, or don't belong to anyone else. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I wasn't talking about hte Jedi Masters Council, but the judging council. She was on that. You surrendered it to them, and they obviously let her take it. In any event, it wasn't yours any more. They were allowed to give it to anyone they wanted.

Actually, if you went on a killing spree, you'd have your ship locked down and a planetary army trying to kill you. Sure, based on the difficulty of both KotOR I and KotOR II, you could defeat said army, but do you really want to spend 60 hours in one big battle?

xcellent work. Yo should draw them making out now