Amentep

This is actually my main problem with the whole discussion surrounding the incident. There's reasonable and good voices (people shouldn't behave that way), but there are people that are upset because a *artist* was attacked and how dare you insult someone *special*. I don't have to like someone to be able to appreciate their artistic effort. But being a jerk sometimes makes it hard to overlook the person and see the art. BUT on the other hand, I don't think being an artist gives one a free pass from criticism either. I also think the whole "[having done something] > U" attitude afforded creative types is conducive to the rampant hero worship crashing on the rocks of reality that often happens when an artist of any stripe is touted as the best thing since sliced bread. (EDIT: I also have to add the internet seems to love building up then tearing down "idols").

Isn't your internet example not equivilent to selling to a minor at a newsagent, but selling to a dad at the newsagent who then hides his purchase by putting it in a box in the living room labeled "porn - do not open"?

Which is fair enough. So in this case the question is, how do we (the entire community) stop people from reacting in ways that are extremely out of proportionate to the "problem" and getting them to provide the useful feedback without forcing the developer to swim through waves of noise in order to find that irate community member's signal?

I suspect - but could be wrong - that this is what Alan is getting at. I know its what I'm getting at. The solution to the problem isn't in changing the internet; its addressing the stem problems which are all in real life. Where to start, how to proceed....all important questions, but we have to tackle the problem, not its symptoms that show up on the internet and increasingly in real life.

So what kind of action against an "impassioned" player making death threats isn't overreacting? Deleting the threats? Banning the poster? Calling the police because you've been threatened? I understand feeling passionately about a game, but why would we want to excuse the actions of a person who feels that the correct response to announced changes in a game they like is threatening to kill the people who make the changes? I don't think it merits imprisonment. I don't think releasing a patch that rebalances a gun merits someone issuing death threats. What value could that person possibly offer to any community - real or virtual - if their perspective of "what is important in the big scheme of things" is so skewed that a patch that makes a gun action a little bit slower - even in anger - seemed reasonable? (I should add that generally speaking I don't necessarily think every death threat issued online needs police involvement, but really I can't find a lot of sympathy for those who find that their death threat issued on twitter landed them in real life trouble).

So what kind of action against an "impassioned" player making death threats isn't overreacting? Deleting the threats? Banning the poster? Calling the police because you've been threatened? I understand feeling passionately about a game, but why would we want to excuse the actions of a person who feels that the correct response to announced changes in a game they like is threatening to kill the people who make the changes?

It isn't (yet. As this may very well come int future) For one reason. Your senses. It's just not the same emotionally compared to being in the actual situation. Sure its the same. That the "slighted person" is impotent to act rashly towards the "insulter" doesn't change the nature of what you're doing. It just means you can get away with it without repercussions for the most part. Back when I was a mod for Black Isle, one of the other mods created a page with a lot of BIS mods' & posters' pictures (self-submitted). One gadfly decided to start saying in the IRC chat that I looked like "a child molester". I can assure you that this kind of defamation could not have bothered me more, upset me more or made me more angry had it been said to my face instead of over an IRC chat. The problem is that there are far too many people who think "oh its just the internet" and dismiss the idea that what people put here for others to read is completely harmless. It is why we have anonymous tweeters tweeting rape threats to a journalist who successfully petitioned for Jane Austin to be put on a £10 note. Because not enough people think that the internet and social media "matter" and that those offended just need to "get over it". And if they don't they get attacked for being "thin skinned".

There's depth and breadth, but I think there's also a certain lack of verisimilitude being referenced in the thread. Depth and breadth need more writers and/or more time. Verisimilitude in some of the examples above could be handled by a Quest Board or a reputation/fame threshold that prevents someone who is neither known locally or nationally to be approached by random people and told their deep dark "I keep skeevers in my basement illegally and wolves have gotten in and are killing them" secrets.

I like being able to choose races. I like the races feeling distinct and I'm okay with them having different natural talents. I also like to intentionally go against the races "natural proclivity" and create sub-optimal characters because I have an interesting idea. As long as the character isn't sub-optimal to the point of being useless, I'm okay with being a worse mage than [other race] so long as I'm not a useless mage without qualification. I dislike arbitrary distinctions with races (Halflings only go to level 10 if they choose fighter! Dwarves can't be Paladins despite a number of Lawful Good dieties in their pantheon!).

DM is the ultimate arbitrator anyhow; as much as I have rules lawyery tendencies, everyone at the game has to agree to let the game flow. If not the rules lawyer needs to be the DM so it goes their way.

If that means that those convicted of sex based crimes are forced to be on a Pervert Watch List, then I approve. Im not opposed to convicted criminals losing rights, but every single citizen? Way overboard imo. No, actually my worry is that opting out of "decency" filters will make you a candidate for secretly spying on what you do use your internet connection for because, clearly if you don't want to be filtered then you MUST be up to something illegal that would be blocked by the decency filter.

Right I was making a general summation that I think if party A is being a jerk and party B is being a jerk we need to call them both jerks. Which, as you mention, wasn't what you were saying and I'm not trying to establish you are. But I don't think this thread is just about the Beer-Fish situation, so I'm trying to move us to more general areas of discussion. I have very little knowledge of Beer or Fish other than that both of them seem to have some pre-standing issues both with the fan community and with each other and that neither of them come off looking very good in their specific embroilment. If everyone flings ****, pretty soon everyone is covered in ****. RE: the Panel - I think the panel's answer is kind of disappointing on many levels. They don't really articulate what they dislike so much as to claim the games "suck" particularly with regard to referencing things that are bad in Japanese games that are also bad in Western games. It would have been better to try and find a tactful response. But again my impression is that this isn't how people are developing their conversational skills and part of that is how the internet and social media is teaching people to act.

So he seems to be a tactless jerk. Doesn't mean you have to be a tactless jerk in return. There's definitely a "give as good as you get" philosophy in play on the internet. I disagree with this. This is why people think they can post rape threats, death threats and other things to social media because they don't get that this communication is part of real-life. And what people don't realize is that it spills over into communication face to face. If BIGJGAMINGDUDE (who just happens to be a Japanese indie game developer) had asked a question on a message board about the influence of Japanese games on western indie gaming and FEZFAN3000 had replied (just happening to be a indie developer) that Japanese Video game sucked... ...well that kind of response is expected these days. I'm not saying its right - I bemoan this state of affairs. But I also acknowledge that a lot of people don't realize that being a jerk on the internet and being a jerk in real life aren't mutually exclusive or acceptable in one situation but not the other. Which is kind of what I'm getting at, being tactless in real life or online is the same and doesn't warrant being attacked, threatened or insulted in kind. It also shouldn't be a free pass either; point out the tactless behavior but don't allow "well he's a jerk" to be a cause to dismiss someone else's actions.

"We've got another one for the 'Pervert Watch List'..."

That someone is a fellow video game indie developer and japanese. *They suck* to his face isn't exactly not dickish. Just look at the other guy. There's a difference between a online forum and real-life. Aside from these complaints applying to western games as well. (Which is funny that you mention the codex, because a comment there mentions that things like forced tutorial sections are common in modern western games too) Would it have been better/worse if the guy wasn't an indie developer? Or if he wasn't Japanese? Now, don't get me wrong I find Fish's comments to totally lack tact (which I feel is pretty common these days where people would rather keep things short and pithy rather than offer even handed but lengthy commentary), but if that's how he feels wouldn't he have been disingenuous to say otherwise? My biggest problem with Fish's statements besides that it could have been handled better is he adds no context. Blow tries, but as the Codex has mention most of the problems he mentions - hand holding, showing players where to do what action - are in western games as well. Which is kind of the problem in talking about any segment of gaming as if its a monolithic entity. So tactless, yes. But that's my point, how is what he said any different from, a non-developer saying very similar tactless things? And does lacking tact warrant someone attacking you? To be clear while Fish could have handled things better, so could have Beer. But it does also open up a much wider view of gaming culture and how people - particularly driven by anonymity - believe that its perfectly okay to insult other people (which seems to be the general thrust of this thread). We see it here from time to time and this is a fairly strongly moderated board. If it was you there in the crowd, I think you would be singing a different tune now. That is no way to talk to anyone, least of all to a fan. Maybe, I can't say with certainty how I'd react; until yesterday I'd never heard of Phil Fish, Fez or FezII. That said, having been at conventions and panel discussions and occasionally asked questions, I also go into it accepting that when asking questions its very possible to ask questions about things that the other person hates. I'd rather them be honest than soft-ball the answer. But that's just me.

Maybe its just me, but nothing Fish said in that video is any worse (or better) than what a lot of people here say about Japanese games (or say the RPG Codex which tends to take a fairly dim view of Japanese RPGs) all the time. So is the problem that he said what he thought to someone asking a question at a con, or that he's not some random poster posting to a forum but a "developer" and therefore he shouldn't express negative feelings about others games?

Don't worry, the cult's presence on Solstheim is very low. Probably cause they are all over Skyrim looking for you. I can't imagine they'd find me cleverly hidden in the mine as I am, willfully ignoring the cult quest. But now I want to go back to Skyrim and see if I can get some Cultists, Vampires and Dragons attacking me all at the same time... Console commands are your friend then. Its funner if its random, though.

Eh? I'm not sure I'd say that, seems like there may be more to the problem than just one root cause.

People really flipped out over a campaign to get a woman on bank note ? Weird. I...don't get it either. What is the controversy about adding Austin to a bank note? Looking at that Giant Bomb post of what Beer said...well it looks to me like he expected an easy quote - "They’ve been on Indie Game: The Movie, and they’ll turn up and quote for anything and everyone" - didn't get it and decided to take it out on two people in public.

Don't worry, the cult's presence on Solstheim is very low. Probably cause they are all over Skyrim looking for you. I can't imagine they'd find me cleverly hidden in the mine as I am, willfully ignoring the cult quest. But now I want to go back to Skyrim and see if I can get some Cultists, Vampires and Dragons attacking me all at the same time...

Wasn't that the one where it's just you surfing in a tube of water, and it generates energy from how awesome you look? It always fell down when trying to adjust for different types of swim trunks.

Egads, the Traveling-Wave Reactor sounds eerily like something I was imagining not so long ago (in a totally non-scientific way).

Still playing Skyrim. Started the Dragonborn content and am on Solstheim (not spelled correctly). Am now in a mine, so not actually actively looking into the cult I came to the island for.

At which point Beer didn't have to make his issue with Fish public. However he chose to make it public and thus loose whatever illusion of objectivity he had (which, going by being called "Annoyed Gamer" can't have been much). Saying that he would have been fine with a "no comment" is, IMO, a bit disingenuous as well. Clearly he wasn't okay with it or else he wouldn't have taken the twitter feed personally (which, given that Fish also took it personally makes me wonder if there's a bigger personal history here than we have. At any rate I'd argue neither side comes off looking great). Plenty listen to them, which is the sad and funny thing. People don't need them, can't really think of anything they've uniquely provided other than social justice outrage (woo RPS) or just funny drama. Okay so how would someone who doesn't have access to forums like these get an opinion on a new game that has been released without reading a gaming journalists review? I know a lot of people ask the employees of the local game store for opinions when they go in looking for something to buy.

I watched THE WOLVERINE. I thought it was a good movie, but a bit like Iron Man 3, decides not to really be a "superhero" movie. Logan is thrust into a situation where he is forced to choose sides not knowing what is actually being fought for; in someways the story is akin to YOJIMBO or A FISTFUL OF DOLLARS with the exception that in this case Wolverine doesn't just arrive in town without invitation (in that way, a bit more like Hammet's THE GLASS KEY). Its a bit of hard boiled film noir meets Yakuza with western and samurai influences with a small dash of superheroic sci-fi. In this light, I think THE WOLVERINE works fine; the emotional aspect of the characters work, the mystery is adequately shadowy (at least until you realize at which point it begins to solidify what's going on and which players are doing what). But I suspect if you're looking for big screen superheroics, you'll be a bit disappointing if you can't enjoy what the movie does deliver in.