Amentep

Do books have "mature" labels on them now? I haven't seen them and thought that was once only the realm of visual media. I have seen the same book in adult and in kids and in teen - and Twilight is one of them (as was Harry Potter and the Poison Study series). Depends on the 12 year old daughter, wouldn't it (their maturity level, their interest, their ability to understand the material)? I've read of King's views on RAGE before, but I don't believe Rage caused those incidents anymore than I believe Catcher in the Rye caused Mark David Chapman to shoot John Lennon, to be honest. Its his work to self-censor, though.

Thing is I'm not sure they are gullible; Edward is a fantasy guy, as such he's just as unobtainable as the Pirate Captains and the western gunslingers in romance novels my work friends read. The fantasy of the relationship was appealing, rather than its ability to be replicated in the real world.

I'd disagree with that. Or alternatively catharisis isn't the word I'm looking for, one or the other. Probably the other. So trying to side step word definitions, my point is that people can explore "bad things" in fictional narrative without necessarily agreeing with those bad things or even wanting to participate in those bad things and in that way they can sate their curiosity or interest through that exploration. The idea that Twilight is somehow worth "stopping" because the relationship between Bella and Edward has elements of a classically abusive relationship (and that Bella is a weak female who has to be supported by men) misses the point that readers can read the book and explore that relationship from a distance without wanting to model that relationship in real life anymore than a person who reads books on serial killers is necessarily going to become a serial killer.

Not cathartic for the characters, cathartic for the readers. To sate the curiosity, to experiment in safety, etc.

1. It is a young adult novel with no age restriction. The Krueger movies are adult horror movies. Big difference. Adult horror movies that I and pretty much everyone in my high school saw as teens. After the first movie, Krueger is the point of identification because he's the only returning character. He's not the protaganist, but he's certainly the identifiable presence. People didn't buy products because pictures of Nancy or Don Thompson were plastered on them, after all. And again, the reader (or viewer) is able to - if they choose - explore that relationship without having to ever be *in* that relationship, which again speaks to the potential that the appeal of the story is - at least to some degree - cathartic in nature, just as Fifty Shades allows people to explore BDSM from the comfort of their own living room wearing comfy shoes.

"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell trolls; It trolls for thee."

Well Dracula is actually not really a love story in how it is originally. I'd argue that it's epistolary format precludes it being seriously romantic since its events are chronicled with a certain distance within the narrative because its elements are written post-action and through multiple points of view (including newspapers!). Also note that much of the romantic subtext in Dracula has been created outside of the novel (particularly the idea that Mina is a reincarnation of a lost love of Dracula's which first appears in the 70s, but even the 30s Dracula hints at the continental attraction of the count. Nosferatu is probably closer to the novel in some respects than Universal's effort based on the stage-play based on the novel). My memory is that Dracula pursued Lucy as part of his pursuit of Mina which itself was borne of trying to break the things that Harker had cared for (which is, in a way, understandable of a character who is ultimately against/a perversion of life). There might be merit in arguing about the STD subtext in Stoker's work, but I'm not sure I'd argue that Stoker's Dracula as it is is terribly romantic (but its also been a couple of decades since I read it). Bruce, thanks for the compliment. I've read the link (as much as I care to) and read other links too. The problem, in my mind - and I say this not to dismiss the criticism - is that sometimes people are fans of things that represent "not good" as part of a catharsis. In the "Nightmare on Elm Street" series, Freddy Krueger became a popular character. A pedophile serial killer given supernatural powers to continue killing kids. Like most horror, the appeal of a character is a catharsis built around boxing in unquantifiable evil (there's a reason horror stories rise in popularity in uncertain times) not an intent to say that Krueger was a "good" character or a "role model". My experience with romance narratives where romance is the primary reason the story exists are limited, but - assuming my friends are right that the appeal is a kind of fantasy about relationships - I'd make an argument that the ability to experience a relationship that might be a bit unhealthy from the safe confines of a book is part of the appeal of both TWILIGHT and FIFTY SHADES OF GRAY, if not other romance novels (and of course, any of the "exploitative" genres in film, television and novels).

GAAAAH...why won't the secret seller appear in my FIRE EMBLEM: AWAKENING game? I'm in desperate need of some Master Seals... ;_______________;

I'll jump on the "good entertainment" and ask - can their be bad entertainment? IE I can read, lets say, JUSTICE, INC. by "Kenneth Robeson", watch PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE, play DIABLO 3 and be entertained. I wouldn't say Justice, Inc is the great American novel of 1939 (but a fine pulp one); I wouldn't say PLAN 9 should have won the Oscar for best film of 1959 (nor Tor Johnson in the running for best actor). Wouldn't argue that Diablo 3 is the best Diablo clone I've ever played. Yet I was entertained by each. Sometimes things can be non-optimal and still be entertaining; to which I'd say entertainment isn't good or bad, its entertainment. Good or bad is a qualifier that really doesn't apply to whether someone was entertained. So KP likes JMS run on Spidey - I'm okay with that. Won't defend the storylines, but if it worked for him - great.

I remember back in the day when I went to a con that was centered on fantasy stuff (comics, books, movies, tv, etc) and walking with a female friend through an isle and realizing that it was full of old porn mags for sale. Thought it was odd and the friend just shrugged and said "I guess it is a kind of fantasy..." Years later two female co-workers and I were talking about what we liked to read; one thing they had in common (which I didn't) was they liked to read romance novels. One of them quipped "its a fantasy - its the one way you'll see a guy actually acting right in a relationship". I'd imagine that the reason people like the Twilight books is because - regardless of the elements of "abuse" or "stalker" or "hurt/comfort" - there's something in the fantasy of the relationship that appeals. Maybe its not a mature appeal, maybe it is teen angst romantic appeal or something, not sure I'm in a position to analyze it other than recognizing it must exist. And to be vaguely on-topic its something that must exist with Bioware romances too.

What can the average poster do about things that happen outside of their purview? And the stuff they see can only be reported to the authorities of the forums? I'm not sure what this means as it involves online gaming. Was she invited to join the group? Was it a guild? Or did she just join and someone said "we have too many people" and kicked her? Or did they say "Girl! A filthy casual!" and then kick her? That's disturbing. What's a Rust server? Did she complain to some authority on the server? Yeah, I got nude selfies (well actually wiener selfies (not to be confused with Anthony Wiener selfies) - and well assuming they were selfies because I had no way to have first hand knowledge and didn't feel strongly about pursuing that line of investigation) on another forum (damn my love of pictures of women as avatars). As I recall I blocked the person after telling them I was a dude and they didn't believe it (I must have a feminine typing style). I'm of the opinion that the default on any board should be to disallow email/pms unless someone opts in as the default (instead of the reverse of that) There are creepy scary people online. I've heard similar stories from another forum I was at which actually ended up with a few teen posters (who only ever revealed they were teens (or undercover officers pretending to be teens, who can tell online?) privately and not on the board).

do we? *shrug* No. But I'll also say if a woman comes and posts under the username "Ultima0u812" and puts up an avatar of Han Solo from Star Wars, does anyone realize she's female?

We need to know our known unknowns and our unknown unknowns.

"I don't want to belong to any club that will accept people like me as a member." -Groucho Marx

am feeling the same... although we probable fall into the **** category. the thing is, Gromnir treats everybody equal bad. oddly enough, this endeared us to many o' the female posters at old interplay boards. we don't like lack o' fairness, so maybe that strikes some kinda resonating chord. dunno. regardless, am thinking most women ain't as frail as they is frequent portrayed. treat with same respect/disrespect as male counterparts, and female gamers/posters respond positively... for the most part. HA! Good Fun! Gromnir have you not noticed there are very few females members active on these forums? Am I the only one who is concerned by this and wonders why? Can you determine why they aren't active though? Is the forum (or its posters) uninviting or are women uninterested in posting?

Back when people thought I was a girl on the BIS boards (something about the avatars or some such) I got hit on by unsuspecting male forumites in PM. You mean you're not? Oh, um, ignore that last PM then. Who says RPG fans don't like romance!

That is kind of a weird coincidence, but I don't remember the guy in our neighborhood having a go-cart like in the link too (which would be really weird!) He and his dad did do soap box derbies though...

Well I wouldn't argue it would necessarily rescue the situation since my position is that the movie doesn't start in the right place to begin with; but "in theory" I don't think the idea of Anakin having an twisted hero's path as being unworkable. I do think Lucas doesn't pull it off, however.

Back when people thought I was a girl on the BIS boards (something about the avatars or some such) I got hit on by unsuspecting male forumites in PM.

Sure, I agree to disagree with you on it, I just found it fascinating to discuss.

Hmm, well that was enlightening. Thanks. I think I'll continue to stick to single player games.

Whoops, misread the replies, sorry. Regarding the ends of AotC vs Empire, you could argue that Anakin has already lost himself since his mother died and he slaughter the Tuskan Raiders, thus making his lack of reaction to losing his hand a part of the path Anakin is on (and that he's so far lost he's not able to recognize loss anymore). In general Anakin's Path, in many ways, is an inverted path relative to Luke's; where Luke is self-aware, Anakin shouldn't be.

I think there was only one kid who had a Green Machine in my neighborhood. Dunno if he had a pony or a rifle too; I know he had a sports car (an 86 corvette?) when he was 16...

I'm not sure I presented a false dichotomy and I'm not saying that Obi-Wan couldn't have been the central character; I'm just saying that if Lucas is going Joseph Campbell again then Anakin's character arc fits that role better than Obi-Wan (as Obi-Wan's story is antithetical to the monomyth). I'd disagree that nothing was at stake with respect to Anakin; his romance with Padme and his friendship with Obi-Wan were both lost - after the loss of his mother probably the only two things that really meant much to him.

I see your point, but I'm not sure I agree; if Star Wars IV-VI is the archtypical Hero's Journey, then there's no real reason that I-III can't be. Anakin can still be the character who is introduced into a magical world, wins a decisive victory and returns to grant boons to his fellow man (remember, ultimately from the story's perspective, the prophesy that Qui-Gon thinks he will fulfill is true and as in all monomyths, Anakin achieves the goals of his quest (even if, ultimately, his quest ends up not being what he thought it was)). The problem, then to my mind, isn't the overarching hero's journey and focusing on Anakin. While they could have focused on Obi-Wan entirely and probably had a decent film out of it, he's ultimately Han Solo in the original films. The difference being that Han and Luke ultimately end up on the same side after they separate but Obi-Wan and Anakin don't. He provides a different perspective on the events in the film, but ultimately I don't think Lucas was wrong to make the first three about Anakin (I'd argue, for example, Anakin's betrayal of Obi-Wan is important only in how his hubris in dealing with Obi-Wan led to him becoming Darth Vader; the real choices that Anakin made were all in his scenes with the Emperor. Betraying Obi-Wan was only a consequence of those previous, more important actions).