Gromnir

Frankly, Sawyer want so much control the viable/optimal point, it is impossible to miss a character, even with a 3 in recommended stat. So, it is not completely an argument. There is a very clear loss for paladins, druids and cipher. One can not deny it. A quantitative loss, you who love numbers at 18 Might : 24 % if you are focus on Spells side. Yeah, Gromnir's making a feelings argument in response to a mathematical issue. You could make every stat choice feel meaningful by taking away all the discretionary starting points so that if you wanted any stat higher than 10 you had to drop a different one down, too. Think of how hard the choices would be! Wait, even better idea: only one ability point gained every other level. Half as many power choices! So much meaning felt! is hardly feel. given the linear nature o' stats in poe/deadfire compared to the ie games for example, the stats is less significant. sure, the stats still have value, but people is much over-focused on stats 'cause o' the feel they carry over from previous games. again, as noted 'bove, all o' our pc builds is built with approx the same stats, cause non-optimized stats hardly punishes a player playing even on the highest difficulties. Gromnir has actual played a deadfire cipher with the same stats we showed we use for a priest. works fine... save for the penetration issue. so show us the mathematics o' how a cipher will be unable to actual perform in deadfire. am gonna need you show us the math o' how a few points moved 'tween stats is gonna cripple the cipher, 'cause actual experience with a cipher, played as if he were already boned, tells us the opposite, and we watched combat logs to see numbers verify that feel. is a bit like the imagined need for weapon talents for builds current doing laudable weapon damage and weapon and shield talents for tanks already roll-stomping in the deadfire beta. the change to resolve removes a dump stat. fine. great. such is the goal we should be hoping for. if folks is saying the best spread o' stats for a class is pretty much 12s 'cross the board, how is that a problem as long as the class is still viable. the optimizers has always been over concerned 'bout the starting stats spreads. heck, even boeroer has admitted the poe stats is less decisive a character development issue than most optimizers believe. as an aside, whatever problems the cipher has is not stat related but is a penetration issue. HA! Good Fun!

You're missing the point here. It doesn't matter whether it's by big or small numbers, spellcasters should not be tankier than melee classes. Period. But with new system they will be. you are assuming no other changes is being made? give the caster classes the same base deflection as barbarians solves the deflection issue people seem to be concerned 'bout. am not saying such a change will be made, but is best not to assume we know all changes. HA! Good Fun!

if only every class/build were equal broken, then we would be genuine pleased. https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/94897-how-does-the-new-resolve-solve-anything/?p=1958190 https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/94897-how-does-the-new-resolve-solve-anything/?p=1958201 https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/94858-resolve-huh-what-is-it-good-for/?p=1958209 as we noted 'bove, am gonna play before convincing self o' the improvement o' the specific change to resolve. however, the absence o' dump stats making optimized builds more challenging to construct should be the goal rather than something to be mourned. HA! Good Fun!

folks do realize the only reason why hybrids is tougher to optimize is 'cause resolve is closer to being universal useful, yes? and speaking as one who almost never played poe with optimized stats, we can say with conviction, this current change to resolve will not cripple hybrid builds. https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/84838-optimal-starting-stats-and-late-game-signifficance-for-wizard/?p=1782213 can find a half dozen near identical posts from Gromnir. have played numerous variations o' a contemplative with stats near identical to the ones we got revealed in the linked post as our choice for priests. is no undue burden playing such a character. kinda refreshing to be seeing how we will actual benefit from playing our typical stat spread... though at the moment, assuming no other balancing changes is being made (which is a foolish assumption) our paladin tank with mediocre might would be seeing a bit o' a power-up if played in deadfire. HA! Good Fun!

haven't quite figured out the trigger, but the chief can respawn after having been killed on the foothills map. the respawn happens following a reload, but it doesn't always happen. HA! Good Fun!

disagree. the builds you describe as being "boned" is the builds which is responding to the changes as intended. stat choices should be painful. the intention were/is to make all stats useful to a build, so lowering a stat should have an obvious cost. so, good on being boned. however, am admitting pure casters have simple flipped one dump stat for another... while gaining the benefit of increased deflection. also, support tanks is gonna benefit as well, particular paladins and paladin hybrids. paladin tanks were already likely to have middling might so they could boost resolve which only benefited deflection. the payoff for a paladin tank boosting resolve will now go far beyond deflection as all those healing and non-weapon talents will be receiving significant boosts. can fix other classes on an ad hoc basis... but fact some classes is "boned" is part o' the solution rather than the problem. oh, and is easy to fix the caster deflection issue by lowering base deflection to barbarian levels. huzzah. HA! Good Fun! Keeping the current system, though flawed, still has less problems with it than the new proposed system. They 'solved' one problem by adding ten other problems. Regarding you support Paladin; in the current system what was the problem? You wanted Might, Intellect and Resolve. That got you tanky, good healing and good melee damage. New system you could go the same route with Strength, Intellect and Resolve and get the same things. Or you could leave Strength at base or lower and save those points for pumping something else. Seems like the new system just rewards you for min-maxing more which seems contrary to design goals. For every example like your Support Paladin that prospers under the new system there are lots of examples of classes that get gutted like Ciphers or any hybrid weapon user who has heals or spells. Again why make the change if it just makes for a different problem while leaving the original problem untouched? again, you got reversed. gutted is the solution. the problem is pure casters who has simple reversed dump stats and gained deflection, and support paladins, who while already powerful and not needing a power boost, is gonna get a serious boost to their talents save for fod and similar weapon talents. the pure caster problem is easily fixed. *shrug* is a step in the right direction. if all builds were gutted and/or boned, then the system would be working as original intended. fact so many is boned/gutted is good. HA! Good Fun! ps am suspecting the obsidians is aware they cannot achieve universal boned/gutted. while such ubiquitous ability point anguish ain't possible, even if it is desirable, the developers has functional thrown in the towel insofar as achieving such a goal. however, obsidian is attempting to make sure every class has the capacity to benefit from every stat. yeah, a priest is not gonna get much use from might... unless they focus their efforts 'pon maximizing summoned weapons. and a rogue needs resolve 'bout as much as Gromnir needs an eleventh toe... unless one builds a retaliation-tank rogue. am thinking the developers is aware that the admirable goal o' comprehensive boneage is improbable if not impossible. however, the developers should gut as many builds as possible... where "gut" means nothing more than the build benefits from most/all stats.

HA! Good Fun! ps current the basement for stat reduction is 5... in case nobody else already mentioned. What do you mean that the basement is five for stat reduction? I just rolled up an Orlan Wizard in the Beta with a 2 Might. could be a bug we had. tried it and got locked at 5. HA! Good Fun!

disagree. the builds you describe as being "boned" is the builds which is responding to the changes as intended. stat choices should be painful. the intention were/is to make all stats useful to a build, so lowering a stat should have an obvious cost. so, good on being boned. however, am admitting pure casters have simple flipped one dump stat for another... while gaining the benefit of increased deflection. also, support tanks is gonna benefit as well, particular paladins and paladin hybrids. paladin tanks were already likely to have middling might so they could boost resolve which only benefited deflection. the payoff for a paladin tank boosting resolve will now go far beyond deflection as all those healing and non-weapon talents will be receiving significant boosts. can fix other classes on an ad hoc basis... but fact some classes is "boned" is part o' the solution rather than the problem. oh, and is easy to fix the caster deflection issue by lowering base deflection to barbarian levels. huzzah. HA! Good Fun!

on the not-so-funny side, the current peculiarities o' deadfire mechanics has Gromnir outfitting his backline casters with tower shields and wands. as long as kdubya can get his orlan wizard tank to travel back from the future and sit in a doorway to prevent flanking, our squishy wizards will sit back with wands and tower shields taking 50% less damage due to the shield modal while debilitating foes with their wands... 'cause chances are their offensive spells lack enough penetration to do anything useful... at least until our other orlan party member, a skald, uses the ar reducing invocation which is current a no brainer talent. not being able to move is hardly a problem for backline casters when enemies cannot get to them. is a number o' oddities at play. HA! Good Fun! ps current the basement for stat reduction is 5... in case nobody else already mentioned.

people did complain during poe development 'bout the ubiquitous quality o' might damage enhancements. complained often. *shrug* were some developer presentations which explained the thought process behind the ability scores. were never 'posed to be a reality simulator. even so, is curious why so many salient and subtle game abstractions is overlooked while others is so curiously important. HA! Good Fun! I know it's not supposed to be a simulator and I'm fine with that. Or, well... was. I was just pointing out the double standard, and a barrage of excuses was brought out to illustrate it. People might have complained about it back during the original development, but ever since I joined this forum after Deadfire's announcement, it's always been about Might to magic damage. wasn't a criticism o' you. our observations were directed at those who do actual have their shorts in a twist... and have been crying foul since early in poe development. again, with the multitude o' abstractions in poe and every other crpg we can think o', why folks latch on to specific things such as might being useful to wizards is curious. HA! Good Fun!

people did complain during poe development 'bout the ubiquitous quality o' might damage enhancements. complained often. *shrug* were some developer presentations which explained the thought process behind the ability scores. were never 'posed to be a reality simulator. even so, is curious why so many salient and subtle game abstractions is overlooked while others is so curiously important. HA! Good Fun!

I lose the experience of importing. One of the things I enjoyed most about the Baldur's Gate series was importing my character, but if Baldur's Gate 2 had used D&D3e I wouldn't have. Feels the same here. So importing stats was more important to you than story decisions? BG1 didn't import story decisions to BG2, but I guess they made a way around it by making some things canon. And I get what you mean, importing 100% same character with all the same attributes, skills and spells and portrait was satisfying. But that was AD&D for you, there was no need to tweak anything. But personally, after Mass Effect series I got used to devs tweaking stats system in every new game, importing story decisions started to feel more important to me. point out the innumerable successful/superior sequels which altered mechanics significant will not benefit you. HA! Good Fun!

I lose the experience of importing. One of the things I enjoyed most about the Baldur's Gate series was importing my character, but if Baldur's Gate 2 had used D&D3e I wouldn't have. Feels the same here. *chuckle* you have no idea how much we would pay for a bg2 or iwd enhanced edition which utilized the iwd2 mechanics. that woulda' been a real enhanced edition. HA! Good Fun!

That's some good news. In theory. Right now skill points seem rather scarce and it is unknown how much you have to pump them to pass most checks. we did notice the relative diminished significance o' stats in dialogue and cutscene interactions. the skill checks we saw in deadfire beta were rare exceeding 5, which may be a function o' it being the beta. also seemed as if a few checks were solely individual checks as 'posed to benefiting from party assist. is far more skills than stats. unlike poe, is gonna be far more difficult to come up with some kinda ideal dialogue spread o' skills and stats... which is good. HA! Good Fun!

Surprised it's gone beyond this post. Well ok, not really. in the US we kinda make the questions and the solutions more 'bout individual choice. as shady observed, he helps folks get groceries. Gromnir volunteers at local catholic charities. others have indeed adopted a "wash our hands" approach and decided the majority o' homeless don't deserve help. everybody is different and is difficult to discuss as obvious is emotional charged for a few folks... see their integrity challenged or somesuch. place questions and solutions in the hands o' individuals is not the most efficient way to deal with a problem which affects more than simple the homeless. san diego recent had an outbreak o' hepatitis which were linked to homeless folks and predictable hygiene issues. nevertheless, for all the problems o' leaving such widespread issues to largely to individual/private means, such an approach is the kinda thing gd and the founding fathers would likely approve. HA! Good Fun!

am suspecting any number o' abilities is gonna get changes in the next few months. has only been a little over a week. wouldn't worry too much at this point. HA! Good Fun!

am agreeing with josh that the dump stat reality were already in poe. constitution were a dump stat for most builds. resolve were a dump stat for anybody but tanks. many tanks, particular chanter and paladins, could dump dexterity. etc. take a look at the build compilation thread for poe. see how optimizers spread ability scores. no dump stats were an admirable notion, and am still believing every class should produce viable builds with diverse stat spreads. this change ain't a limit 'pon such a goal. is more than a few casters builds who is gonna want high strength to take advantage of spiritual weapons or firebrand or rods or whatever. is not hard to see how a fighter is gonna benefit from high deflection and the heal boost (do not ignore how powerful +10 tiers o' athletics can be when boosted by high might/resolve/whatever.) at first glance this change appears to reduce the current dump stats reality rather than introducing anything new. even so, wanna play 'fore we adopt some kind bias we will have difficulty unburdening our self from. HA! Good Fun!

We won't really know until we see how much each boosts damage. But even if they each boost damage double what might does now hybrids will still have a significantly lower damage boost potential than non hybrids. Obviously, like everybody else, I would be a bit dismayed if in fact hybrid builds became completely non-viable, but I'm pretty sure it won't be that bad. It would be very counter-productive, given the new multiclass system and all. for rp reasons, Gromnir has been playing much o' the beta with priest builds. also for rp reasons, we has been playing with our traditional spread o' abilities: m 15 c 10 d 10 p 14 i 15 r 14 given the changes, we would play a helwalker monk hybrid with much the same stats. yeah, the build would be less o' a healing titan, but would still be more than viable. now, for those who optimize, the change will serious affect hybrids who wanna be superlative casters and weapon user monsters. is legit concerns for such folks. is also admitted counter-intuitive how priests and wizards, many o' whom were yesterday having less-than-10 resolves and cruddy deflection, sudden is gonna be seeing ~18 resolves and deflections better than most dps weapon users. gonna see how it actual plays. will likely require adjustment. that being said, am admitted less affected by this change than most as our rp-focus builds has us needing make only small changes. HA! Good Fun!

actually, this change makes such a character more difficult to build, if only in a limited way. for a healer, put points in might at the expense o' resolve were the smart move. as a matter o' fact, we had a deadfire contemplative build which were an absolute monster healer. a helwalker monk combined with a priest could achieve, at low levels, a might score exceeding 40. HUGE heals. HUGE spell damage. HUGE melee combat damage. now we gotta make hard choices and our recognition o' how the helwalker were an ironic obvious and counter-intuitive second class for an offensive caster is in the thunder mug. from a practical pov, the change makes sense. it addresses the resolve-as-dump stat for any non-tank, which has been an issue for a long time. sure, the change is busting up any number o' potential builds we envisioned, but am gonna see how it plays. HA! Good Fun!

deadfire does have long casting times, which is glacial by poe standards. from our pov, the casting times extension is a fine balancing effort by obsidian in spite o' the understandable lack o' popularity. why take thrust of tattered veils? was a throwaway spell in poe, but in deadfire the high penetration and fast cast make it useful for interrupts... and interrupts is obvious much more useful 'cause o' the casting times. penetration. is not a caster-specific issue, but it affects casters disproportionate. the new penetration scheme, if working as intended, is o' questionable merit. offensive casters is handicapped by the need to overcome foes with armour which typical exceeds penetration. the means for a caster to overcome penetration is not only inherent limited, but the more anemic spell catalogs means a caster is even less likely to have situation useful spells. to be an effective caster, every spell must needs either be high penetration or penetration irrelevant. functional choice is reduced considerable, which don't jibe with the goals espoused by the developers. priests do have paltry spell lists, but this issue is being addressed. however, priests are affliction killers...which is poor understood at the moment. afflictions alone would make 'em must-haves in any Gromnir party. priests is predictable dependable healers, with the new unified health system makes more significant rather than less. dire blessing, a single spell, is actual the most important force multiplier in the game at the moment. dire blessing returns grazes to the party which is meh for weapon users, but is a huge difference for cc/debuff casters. ciphers do have long cast times, but their main issue is, as is most classes, linked inextricable to penetration. can build focus quick even as a vanilla cipher if you take the right weapon and the cipher-specific penetration talents. don't take the right talents and weapon? screwed. druids have numerous high penetration spell options and their heals may current be better than priests. no need to fix'em. chanters are actual op. we hate poe chanters, but at the moment, playing without a chanter is self-gimpage. a skald with a spear is gonna be drowning in invocation opportunities, and the armour debuff and paralysis invocations are needing nerfs... or at least they is additional evidence as to how borked the penetration mechanic is. the chants, given the casting time issue noted already facing other support classes, is also comparative more significant in deadfire than poe. so, priests need tlc, which they is getting, but the remaining caster issues identified is a result o' wonky penetration. HA! Good Fun!

is as insightful and relevant as any o' your recent posts. not see how this one is different from the last. maybe if you yet again bleat the same complaint with slight different words it will be transformative? good luck with that. HA! Good Fun!

same qb with the same flaws Gromnir were identifying for almost 2 years. with the cowboys superlative worthy ol and a great run game, dak shortcomings were mitigated-- he were a great fit for the cowboys. many a sophomore qb seeming becomes a different qb, for a multitude o' reasons. the sophomore drop-off is not 'cause the players is actual getting worse, but 'cause their flaws is recognized and exposed. an nfl defensive coordinator had insightful comments 'bout the cowboys offense early in the year. observed how obvious were the cowboys game plan and how basic were the playbook, but knowing exact what the cowboys were gonna do didn't make it any easier to stop 'em. were a testament to cowboy toughness and execution on the offensive side o' the ball. well, without a dependable run game, and without a qb who consistent make accurate throws (of more than 5 yards) or tough reads. that said, is few qbs who can elevate a team in the absence o' a healthy ol and a dependable runner. is no surprise dak ain't in such elite company. HA! Good Fun!

Its going to be ok Gromnir, I see your words and I validate your feelings. *patpat* Now you have created an entire narrative that exists only in your head. Please try to address what I actually say, and not what you imagine in my posts. but you don't like having what you say addressed... not that am surprised. *chuckle* the real victim here is not the homeless, but is gifted? what a tragedy. HA! Good Fun!

we tried to get some feedback on universal weapons pretty much day 1 o' the beta... or maybe day 2. is a question as to whether the current behavior o' soulbound and other universal weapons is a bug or intended. maybe try and get a response at sa from josh, 'cause is clear backer beta discussion board is more for catharsis than constructive outcomes. ironic, but get actual feedback from the developers on their mechanics decisions at obsidian's own boards is the least likely forum to be eliciting a response. twitter, tumblr, sa, reddit... anywhere but obsidian. HA! Good Fun!

make certain to put all possible points in athletics, and take laborer. athletics, particular with big might, is gonna get this build a functional free life every encounter. even so, is not an ideal solo build as a few bosses and a few bad rng encounters will see health drop precipitous. a paladin companion or hierling casting lay-on-hands (particular with robust) at the start o' a battle will add a functional layer o' invulnerability to this build. priest and cipher have similar buffing capacity. as long as one does not look at the build in a vacuum, its vulnerabilities can be largely mitigated. HA! Good Fun!