Zilod

I'm in agreement on this one; there are way too many NPCs, and it's obvious that Obsidian did not have enough time to flesh all of them out sufficiently. I think if there had only been 4-5 NPCs who were more distinct (i.e. had a more distinct skill set) and well developed, it would have made the game more interesting. Considering Obsidian didn't fully flesh out the NPCs that are in the game, I don't think the BG "lots of NPCs but limited party size" approach would have worked out very well. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 4 chars is like to have a fixed party, with just 1 romance possibility, no replayability, not to say that with so few chars maybe you will end up playing all the game with chars you don't like too much. Also if now we can chose chars oriented to DS or LS we will have not much choices with such low number. and about the more different skill sets, i think this was made on purpose, to permit to form viable parties with different chars. If you have no way to replace a npc because of specialization here that you will be forced to use it regardless if you like it or not, and if i have to chose a comrade for my adventures i want to do it because i like him/her, for the background and so on, not because he have that usual skill that i need for most part of the game. about 4-5 chars on the ebon hawk with a large pool to chose.... it will not save any "resource" because you will have to develope anyway all the chars of the pool, so is not that to have 2 npcs on the hawk and to be able to chose from 20 chars will be different than to have 20 npcs all on board, all the character have to be equally developed to be viable choices for different players and replayability.

Yup i agree the exile doesn't know that power, and probably have no way to know it, as he can't be consumed. Also i don't think the Exile have even 1/10 of Kreia knowledge about the force. His training is complete because he know what he is and represent (imo not a second Revan but a real Man), and this is different from raw force knowledge or power. Also considering how she almost killed you (if you kill the council), i can guess that she is holding back even in the final combat... she knows she have to be destroyed.

If i remember right that Sith'ary was not a DS but a behing that commanded the force or master both LS and DS or something like that (can't remember .p) when i played KOTOR i had the impression she where referring to Revan and i still think is quite probable he is the main candidate.... also after TSL i think that even the Exile and Kreia can be considered like that. as i see her, Kreia have the "Knowledge" and the power of the force, all the force, but still she is under her "control" the Exile is free, but he lack the knowledge and also i think he is something different, superior to that Sith'ary, even if indeed he is probably the only one among the 3 that can control the force whitout be controlled by it. is also quite probable that at the end of KOTOR3 everyone of them can be considered the destroyer of the siths.

just to add I don't think they are too many, aboard the hawk they are pretty the same of KOTOR1 is also true that we know why they are with use, but we know them just for what they speak about us and the story, not really for what they are or they feel. Of course there are some chars more developed, Kreia is just awesome for example, but that was the general impression i had.

DarthNihilus I must admit that the first time i played my vision was very similar to your and i tought about her fall just because the hunger for knowledge. I had really underestimated the "path of betrayal" but, after i was pointed to the chronicles and played again the game, i really noticed that it is very central to the story who is generally better shaped keeping it in high account. note that i still think that the "ultimate wisdom" research is still very important both for Kreia and even for Atris paths, at least to a degree. But i don't think that Kreia is "confused", i see her very focused and i had the impression that she really know what she is speaking about, i really think she got a sort of ultimate knowledge of the force. I think too that when the Exilee meet her, and when she was on Malachor, she was no more a true sith, and that probably she was never a real one, this could also be why Nihilus and Sion betrayed her. This can't be possible, jedis are chosen, they don't apply, as every jedi she was taken when she was just a kid. little side note. I don't think that Nihilus defeated her for his superiority, even in the cutscene i had the impression that Kreia was way stronger than Sion and Nihilus put togather. I really think they won just because at that time Kreia was not yet a hole in the force so was possible to drain her, and there are no defence against that power. For the other part, if you can copy cut to the other post... i will prefer to not mix the 2 if possible, i know they are very related, but i fear that putting them togather will generate a lot of confusion and will be more difficult to focus on the debate.

I start saying that i like the chars of TSL, they show a great potential, and probably are abit more complex than KOTOR. Said that i must agree you that, expecially considery their potential, i found them not too developet, or at least not to a degree that i liked. The approach to comrades we have in TSL is way different than the one we had in KOTOR, in the first game they where mostly just comrades that used to accompany you in your adventures, they had their sotry and quest to enrich their character and the plot, but mostly was up on the player to chose to follow these side, comrade enrich, plots. There the sotry was strictly the one of the main character, and comrades where important only to the degree that the player chose. TSL seem to be more story driven, all the characters, Exile included, are functional to the story. For this reason every npc, is there not just to form the usual "D&D party", but to give his contribution to the main story. Is for this reason you are forced to use some characters sometimes, because they have a role in the story. I must say that personally i liked more TSL approach but i have still some reserve. I was lucky as Kreia and Visas where my fav chars so i almost always used them, but i can agree that it could be bad if from a certain point of the game you are no more able to use a char just because he have no more role in the story. Is it true that after dantooine you are forced to use some chars, giving the feeling that some other are no more important to the story, but i think this is mostly due to the cut ending. Reading a bit what it could have happened, is quite clear that every char, expecially the ones (not dead) that you where more attached had still a big role to play, and some centrality in the story. For these reasons i consider this more a fault of the game than an Obsidian fault, also as siad i have prefered more background and interaction with most of out comrades. The influence idea is very good, and is also great how various comrades behave when you make some decision, all of this give them more live, but this doesn't replace the loss for lack of knowledge of their past and their wishes. A bit note even to romances, i think that TSL ones are more mature, but generally are not too developed too, the romance seem no to give to the main char and the "beloved" a sort of attchment and of mutual knowledge. I'm not saying that it have to be exactly like KOTOR, with a sort of tender feeling and a kiss, but for example with Visas i didn't noticed any change in her, i was not able to know her past and her feelings, or just to confort her. I didn't noticed a development in the feelings and in the story. I just know her, treat her well and poof at the end we look each other in the eyes With the Handmaiden we fight a lot, is clear that something is happening, but again at some point it stops the feelings and the mutual knowledge doesn't improve leaving all a suspended feeling. All of this in my opinion make use see them just as npcs functional to the story than to real friends/comrades.

eheheh ehy i alredy changed my portrait from Nihilus to Kreia, what are you awaiting? i see you are very interested in her read the second part of my first post, there is my theory and some reasons/considerations too

ok finished, sorry if i had to break the post but i had to go away so was forced to stop and to post it unfinished, for people interested in this topic that alredy read the main post i suggest to read the second part of it that was missing.

Kreia is my fav char of TSL, and probably one of my fav all time chars. Trying to figure out what happened to her and why she turned to DS i found some things that seemed to me incronguences. the official chronicles They say that Kreia was a jedi (or a nominal one) until the end of KOTOR1, from the mandalorian wars to that time she felt guilty for Revan, and this is the main reason of her fall. Also is stated that she left the academy to search Revan when he disappeared and followed his steps to Malacor V, where the corruption of the planet completed her fall. These facts explain well why Kreia and Atris share the same destiny, the become betrayers because they where betrayed, and the aspect, present in all the game, of "wrong" teaching that where a possible cause of apprentices fall. Note that if things went like that Kreia's teaching where not "wrong", maybe they where misterious, but still following the code, she was blamed by some of the other jedis (like Atris), but was Revan to make his choice. It also explain very well the holograms of the Exile trial, when they speak alot about this thing. Now if these fact can explain well some things, there are some other that remain unknown and there are also some conflicts against some fundamental aspect of the game. I think that it can make sense if Revan was DS, but if he was redeemed this "theory" lose a bit of strenght. Seem almost impossible that Kreia never tried to contact Revan after his capture, and is likelly that her guilt where not so strong if Revan saved the republic against the siths. It can still be possible, that when Revan returned she alredy "felt" to her emotions but still not likelly that she never encountered him or, considering her strong feelings, joined him in the fight against the siths. Also if these things can be explained there are some conflicts. During the game in Kreia seem to be present another strong "feeling", the hunger for knowledge, speaking with her about Atris, and at the jedi enclave (both paths) it seem that was even this hunger a cause of her fall, she where trying to understand the force and found the code not sufficent to answer her question (she say that directly and more than one time), it also seem that her teachings reflected that to a degree. In the chronicles these things are not even mentioned, maybe even on purporse, is still possible, and imo likelly, that when Revan's teachings reflected this disbelieve, but if we assume that when here that Revan was not the central point of her fault and what said above about the betrayer path loose strenght. Also negating this, we negate a part that i think is very evident in the game and that the chronicles can't explain. there are also more direct conflicts.... At jedi enclave, Vrook at some point tells Kreia that he tought she where dead during the mandalorian wars. This is impossible for the chronicles, because for all the mandalorian wars Kreia was with the jedis, it could be that he is referring to a sort of spiritual death, but doesn't seem so appropriate, expecially as she reply that was false and she become stronger. In both cases, Vrook referring to a phisical or spiritual death, it seem to me that this stance place Kraia's "final" fall during the mandalorian wars, and not after the destruction of the Starforge. There is also a time factor that i think is important. For the chronicles it seem that Kreia have 2-3 years to become what she is now, it seem really short time to me. Consider that she have to search Revan, explore all Korriban (a thinkg probably not possible when she was in search of him because siths where still present on the planet at that time, and expecially with a DS Revan), to go to Mlachor V, to become a sith (learn the code the teachings and so on), to become the master of the academy, to learn more advanced sith knowledge, draining technique included, to teach to Sion and Nihilus.... Then she have to be betrayed, drained, she say she was their prisoner for some times, she lost the force and regained it, she got the ebon hawk and finally was able to track the exile... It seem really too short time to me, to do all these things. Also there is another bigger conflict... She say, and the thing seem to be present in all the game, that she was questioned for her teachings and exiled by the jedis. Now dunno if is a translation problem (as you can see english is not my first language), but if the jedi really exiled her there is a big conflict with what is said in the chronicles. The exile maybe can be a sith exile, but it doesn't really make much sense that a sith exile his former master (generally they kill them), and even Sion when he meet her on Peragus say something like that is difficult to kill her, giving the impression that they tried to kill her, but she managed to escape. For all these Reasons i had many troubles tring to rebuild her story using the chronicles as what really happened and why she felt. Keeping the chronicles for good, i tried to place Kreia's search for Raven during the mandaloria wars, if some things seem to fit better, expecially the time necessary for all the things to happens, the Vrook statement about her death and so on, the betrayer story results weakened, as during mandalorian wars is not so clear that Revan felt to DS, the thing is still valid but is no more as strong as before. Also even placing her search at time doesn't explain the fact that she was exiled. Considering all of this i tried to build my own theory. All of this is big speculations... and here some reasons for my choices. I tried to keep the "betrayer path" as strong as possible, but still giving space to the hunger for knowledge that Kreia demonstrate in all the game. Central point of my theory is that kreia was exiled by the council and i placed it at some point during the mandalorian wars. Note that as i really can't think that the council could exile someone just because is the master of Revan, i considered that she was exiled because she was found "guilty" of something, in this case i think the jedis discovered that she felt to DS. I placed it during the mandalorian wars to give her time to do all the things she had to do, and to give sense to the Vrook statement about her death in mando wars. Kreia is also probably old enought to have fought in the war against Exar Kun, a war very similar to the jedi civil war we knows from KOTOR, in that war the many jedis fell to the dark side, and fought their friends and their masters. As i think that the "betrayer path" will be very weak if she was exiled i chose to place it in this time frame, this way this fact can be the central one that lead her to DS and to make her become Darth Traya. the theory. (notes and explanations for my decisions) Kreia's fall story begin back during the war against Exar Kun, she was young at that time and was shocked when someone she loved, betryed the jedis to join Exar Kun, that person so important to her could be an apprentice, maybe her first one if she was a joung master, or a "real lover", anyway a person she really loved. (note that this is the exact same thing that happened to Atris, that started her fall due to Exile decision.) The fall of a preson so near her made her feel betrayed, and many questions raised in her. She probably asked why it happened, how a person that she thrusted could become evil and turn to dark side. (This is a sort of question that can fuel a sort of hunger for knowledge, and expecially for knowledge of dark side as the jedi code can't really explain why someone turn away from it, such a direct knowledge can only come from an experience of the DS. It makes also much sense for her vision of the force as an "enslaving behing", she could have blamed te force for the fall of her love, this way the fault is of the force that shaped his destiny that way for her own goal.) After the war she was corroded (?) by these doubts, she began to deeply stude the code of the jedi way but was not able to find answers at her questions, becoming an historyan she probably had access to many sith knowledge, and her that she began to study that knowledge to try to find an answer. At this time probably she began to consider the code as not correct to explain the force, more and more that she studied the sith teaching, more and more the code was no more sufficent to her, she began to mature a bigger vision of the force, and all of this was gradually reflected by her teachings. (note that this is, even for a bit different reasons, the same path that Atris is following, Atris probably is doing that for knowledge, but also for a sort of inferiority feeling about the Exile. She says that the Exile made her not sure that his disobedience of the council was wrong, and also Kreia at the end says the Atris saw him as a sort of hero. This makes me think that the vehemence she demonstrate against the sith is due to her will to become like the Exile (and with an Exile male, to be worth him). So even if the reasons are different here that both the first reason (betrayal) is the same for both of them, and this generated a hunger for knowledge, and expecially for sith one. This way the "betrayer path" is fully respected and very strong.) At the beginning of the mandalorian war Kreia teachings where questioned because of Revan. Even if at that time she was still a jedi as we said above the seeds of corruptions where alredy inside her, and to some decree reflected to her teachings. I think she was not aware of that and she was still sure to be a real jedi. (she also says something like to fall and to admit it to Atris and this can reflect that stance) The council see the corruption inside her and here that she is exiled. This is the moment she begin to consciously embrace the dark side, she travel on many dark side planets to complete her knowledge, exploring Korriban (probably desert at that time) and reaching even Malachor V. I prefer to make her reach Malachor before the battle between mandalorians and jedis, to give her a direct knowledge of the exile, of the facts that happened there (Revan reasons) and to motivate the statement that jedis tought her died during mandalorian wars, but is not really necessary. But is also possibe that she could have travelled in some dark worlds making jedis lose her traks, so thinking she is dead, and she could have reached Malachor after the battle, completing her fall with his corruption energies. After that she became the leader of Tryanus academy, and have all the time to do all the things we know of her past. As said above this theory/path explain quite well her feelings about the force and the destiny, and i think most of the statements we meet in the game are respected. For her feelings about Revan even in this scenario Revan was very important to her, he is her best apprentice, and the fact tht he lead the war can be a bad blow to her that can see happening again the things during the Exar Kun's war. (as said she have not yet admitted her fall at that time) Also is obious that is not Revan's betray the central reason of her fall as implied in the chronicles, and this point result a bit weakened compared to what happens there. (still an important thing but no more central) Here how i guessed her past... As said the official chronicles have not satisfied me and some important things seem to conflict. I'm curious to hears the opinion about Kreia's story, expecially by other people that really like her, and how they see her past story. To try also to build a consistent theory about what happened to her. It will be also interesting to know how devs envisioned her and her past " even if probably i'm asking for too much eheh

You forgot Darth Traya that is probably stronger than Nihilus by a good degree... and Palpy? but between these ones i think Nihilus will win, he simply will consume the force of the others that are defensless against him. I don't think he is strictly the more powerfull, that one should be Vader, but it will not be a fight with sabres and force powers.

are you sure they are not decloacked assassins? (can't check eheh ) and also consider that maybe more soilder boarded tha harbringer after the ship was conquered. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> These Sith were wearing Trooper armor, not the cloaks of the Sith assassins. How could they have boarded the Harbinger when the Hawk and the Harbinger were the only ships on Peragus? Lord Soviet is right, its a continuity mistake. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> when the Hrbringer was captured it was not on Peragus, it could be that a "commando" of assassin and Sion set the trap to capture the ship and after that more soildier joined them from another ship that came out of hyperspace. it could also be that the soildiers even if not assassins had a cloacking device (that is quite a common tool), so they where still able to hide to normal people and where aboard the harbringer too. I really don't see a plot hole here, to me seemed not so strange to find these troopers around.

are you sure they are not decloacked assassins? (can't check eheh ) and also consider that maybe more soilder boarded tha harbringer after the ship was conquered.

They could have boarded the ship using their cloacking device and then awaited their lord to awaken. We don't know if was really Sion to kill all the passengers of the harbringer, i think is most lickelly that the crew was ambushed. When you go aboard the harbringer is said that no blasters where used. If was Sion alone i think we should see a lot of blaster burns around with the crew shoting him and he deflecting the bolts, also is more likelly that the crew where able to organize to try to defend and to block doors or at least escape using pods. I just think that the assassins boarded the harbringer but remain hidden until their lord awake, that was the signal to conduct the attack, they decloaked and slayed the soldiers with their blades. (as you can notice the assassins don't use ranged weapons). This way it make sense that all the ship felt in a couple of minutes, whitout giving time to call for help or to defend. I think there is also a message that tell something like that, but i'm not sure 100%

I just think that they are following you, when you reach the ebon hawk they just break in the hangar. mmm i don't remember broken droids on the hawk, there are some in the hangar, anyway they should be the droids that HK programmed to repair the hawk, is probable that some miner tried to disable them to send them to repair.

These assassins are also probably small tears in the force themselves, so very difficult to sense. for HK, she can sense the energy fluctuations, we don't know if HK uses way more energy than other droids, maybe it's fluctuations where almost the same of every other droid in the installation, so not relevan with all the droids around. also i had the impression that when she tells the exile of the 3 droids she doesn't do that to make him aware of the danger, but mostly to make him expand his sensations and to feel them. I think too that Kreia is holding back, she want the Exile to grow so is the Exile that have to face the enemies and to defeat them, she give him advice and teach him to use again the force, but generally doesn't interfee if she think that the Exile can face the enemy.

Visas is not so submissive, she calls you master, but probably because is what you are for her... also she is the only one that doesn't do a thing you ask her.

i'll go with Visas too she is a really nice character, sad that we don't know much about her and also sad that kreia was not youger, she have won hands down

I think Mira is mandalorian or at least half mandalorian

thx for answer, was just curious

Ehi you proposed Kreia as NPC of the years and not going to buy other products? You seemed happy very happy with the chars and generally to the game, what happened? plz this don't want to be a flame, a personal attack or anything else, i'm just curious to know your motivations, because i had the impression you really liked the game. I apologize from now if you feel to be flamed or personally attacked.

Thanks Trom, i grab the compliments as i think will do everyone have posted in this 3D On Kreia motivations.... Her main goals in my opinion are 2, to save the galaxy from the destruction of Nihilus (and other echoes/sith lords) and to free the humanity from the Force will. I think we must see Kreia as a "human" character, not a steretipe as it could be Nihilus, she is not just evil big bad guy. During the game i had the impression that she really care about life in her own way, she have no problems to kill someone if is necessary for her goals, but she don't like the "free murdering or assassination". I think she have the life in a high account, that can not necessary be the life of an individual, that can't be important at all if weak, but i think more the life itself as a whole, in a very cinical vision. she want to free the humanity from the enslavement, using an example, someone that can live and be complete whitout the force. I think that what it moves her intent here is the hate, for all the life she gathered knowledge, trying to understand the force, and when she reached that knowledge he realized that all of that was a sort of illusion. All the things that she belived in, as a jedi first and as a sith later where false, she saw the force as something that move the life as a puppet that prevent to humans to realize their true potential. She see that the force is using her to achieve it's goal, and she have not the strenght to break her bounds. It can be that there is also a sort of illuministic super human theory that move her, with the man that is a sort of god in the center of the universe, but i prefer to stay mostly with the hate reason, even if i'm sure she knows the real potential of mankind note: when i speak about humanity and mankind i think that as the sentient life, so of all the races as SW have many of them. about the quote of Obsidian's CEO i think he is just saying that the story is very different from KOTOR1.... there all was based on the big twist that was the central point of the story. for TSL the thing is really different, as said above i see it mostly as a path of enlightment, so many steps in a direction that will build the story, that will give centrality and counsciosness to the main character (and to us). I really don't think that he is not happy about it, just that they are very different. and here one of my fav quotes from the game.... is a thing that Kreia say to the Exile in the end, but to a degree a thing that devs are saying to us.... Kreia: Peraphs you where expecting some surprises, to me to reveal some secret that eluded you, something that will change the perception of the events, shattering to your core... Kreia: There is no great revelation, no great secret, there is only you.

Yes at some point probably is most a matter of taste, i have too some things in EU that i don't "accept" too much and i think are a bit out of context. In my case i liked the game, how it present the force, i expecially liked the idea of an hero that is that for his humanity instead for his power. I really think that this centrality of man is incredible for a game, expecially if is in SW universe, where, just to say, even Han Solo become a strong force sensitive in EU, as his actions during the first trilogy where not enought to make him a real hero, but was needed a strong link to the force to give him "nobility". Said that i chose to take literaly what the chars in TSL say, mostly because i think i liked it () and because they where alredy near to my vision of the force and of heroes in SW. For sure if someone see the force as just a tool, he will be more chritic on what is said in TSL, and probably will motivate what happens in a different way than me. About the Exile and the wound in the force thing, my opinion is that he is a real hole in the force, and to some degree immune to some force powers (as we see that he is immune to Darth Nihilus draining power), but he is still able to focus the force around him, as said instead of to draw the force inside him he draw it from the world itself. I think that this is very near to my original vision (first one i had looking the movies) of it, when Ben tells to like that the force is a field that surround and flows in all the things, and when Yoda makes Luke feel the force around him, expecially in the stones he is lifting. The thing to consume the force, seemed a bit strange to me, but still make sense the way is presented (at least it made sense for me), it also seem a very rare thing that can happen just in some circustances so pretty rare in SW. Again i think to the force as a sort of energy, so the fact that it could be consumed is not so strange. I heard of some people speaking of little "microbs" inside our body, that talk to us, Midichlorians (?) i think they are called, and it seem that are these Midimicrobs that gives the force, with this theory, the things we have in the game where difficult to explain, and probably to do an hole in the force the exile had to get a lot of antibiotichs.... Anyway i don't remember to hear or saw such things, i saw all the movies, but i really can't remember anything like that, even if PM had a lot of interferences when i saw it...

I'll add to that i have the PC version (ATI card), the only real bug i noticed is when you start a swop race (you have to jump when you start or you will get stuck in midair) I had 2-3 freezing so far, a thing that should not be happen but not the 1 crash every min that some people are experiencing. I noticed no other problems, i think that if someone is noticing so many troubles is due to drivers or an unstable system.

I don't have any problem with devs not discussing this topic, it will really not change anything if they say "aaaa don't blame us, is LA fault, shame to LA, bad bad LA!" It will be childish and useless, the game went like that and happy or not crying about what really happened will not improve it. Maybe as you said they had to not care so much about LA pressing them, and to work on the game at least to the point that no missing plots where present, but consider also that Obsidian is a new company, this is their first game and maybe they had not enought "weight" or "courage" to oppose to the decision. Also is true that is a bad thing to make a bad impressions on customers (and i don't think is the case as i really enjoyed the game), but is also bad to make a bad impression on publishers.

I agree 100% with that I don't see how the ideas in this 3D conflict with the things you said and examples you posted. Also, even if my knowledge of EU, is very limited, i don't see conflicts of what i know of the force in SW universe, and expecially in the movies. The only thing that i see very different is the vision of the force that Kreia (and the game) have, she see the force as able to manipulate the living behings and to shape their destiny. Is a bit different than what we consider generally the force, more of an instrument to use and that grant power, but we must not forget that even Yoda in ESB tells that the force controls our actions to a degree. So i don't see a conflict in this, but a different point of view, and in my opinion a very interesting one.