Sarex

Well ww2 era guns must be heavy armaments for the mighty Croatian Army. And here I was thinking, you are going to prove your claims by showing those videos. Occam's razor. I see you still avoid showing proof for your claims. I did try to find some source to corroborate your claim, couldn't find anything. A person would think that you would be all to happy to show proof for you claims, instead you think calling me lazy is gonna prove anything. What invasions? Shield of what. Are you serious? The only reasons for which they didn't attack you was because they had heavy losses from their conflict with us. If you count small raids from the Ottoman empire as a war, then sure be proud. Oh right you had a battle, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krbava_Field. Again do you really think you did anything during the war? If you count burning villages and chasing away civilians, then yes your mighty Croatian army sent us home crying. Be real, had not the West intervened you wouldn't have stood a snowballs chance in hell of doing anything, let alone defeating the YNA (Especially if the main and the largest force joined the war). The only reason the conflict started was because your country had guarantees from the west that if you started a war they would come.

If they did physical copies, yes. But they are still going to have to pay those fees + pay Paradox for its work. As far as I understood, they teamed up so Paradox would handle the marketing aspect of the game, not so much the distribution, which now days is simple to do, on account there being Steam, GoG and other clones.

They are going to take a cut from every copy sold which means less money for Obsidian, which means they need to sell more games. Unless they made a contract whit a fixed amount of money, which I doubt.

Damn, I really thought they were gonna self publish. Well this puts even more pressure on the game to succeed.

What goes around, comes around.

http://www.reddit.com/r/SimCity/comments/20ppjx/simcity_update_10_coming_out_today_including/

http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/03/18/a-new-rollercoaster-tycoon-pc-game-is-in-production-say-atari/ YAY

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26630062

That doesn't matter when you are fighting poorly armed civilians. The biggest support of the west was the deterrent to Serbia to use any real force. I guess you were. Like you were imagining those videos of our generals telling lies and other things you mention. That is the pattern thus far with you. Over a thousand civilian casualties and 200 thousand exiled in a week during operation Storm are disagreeing with you. Oh you are denying just that, small potatoes... You keep mentioning that number, could you provide a source for that? Doesn't have to be in English. Battle of Marica is not celebrated but it is thought, as for the Battle of Kosovo it is an important part of our history. It was the "last stand" against the Ottoman empire and it is worth celebrating because the brave Serbs who fought in it knew before hand that it was a losing battle and in spite of it still stood their ground. The battle was a draw, despite of larger numbers on the Ottoman side, but unlike them we couldn't replenish our troops, so in the long run they won. Worth mentioning is that their Sultan was killed in the battle. You mention 2 battles, for one of which you were right. But our history is so much more then that. From the Byzantine Empire to the Ottoman empire, to WW1 in which we had the first 2 Allied victories in the most famous battles of WW1, to WW2 where our people protested the Nazis in spite of knowing that we couldn't stand up to them (Not to mention that we delayed Hitlers invasion of Russia by 2 months, which enabled the Russians to survive until the Siberian winter caught the Germans and in term gave them time to prepare for their counter-offensive which won the war). We have a history that any country can be proud of, we always stood our ground, even when the odds were against us, even when the bad choice was the smart one for us. What can your country say about it's history?

Why are you talking? Where did I deny them? These last few pages it has all been him denying the Croatian atrocities.

And that is where Tudjman's transcripts come in to play. They outright confirm, how much support Croatia had from the west. Not to mention that there were interviews with CIA agents who confirm that there was logistic and equipment support to Croats and the Muslim. No mention of Josip Boljkovac? Denying what, YNA operated in SFRJ. When Croatia declared independence they moved back. It was the same deal in Bosnia. Milosevic order all the Serb soldiers from the mainland to come back home. The only soldiers left in Bosnia were Bosnian-Serbs and the only people in Croatia were the Croatian-Serbs (ie. the Army of Krajina). So you say, facts are that we still have over 700 missing persons added to those 324. No, but how does that have anything to do with the intentions of the Croatian Army? You pretty much confirm their intentions. Ah so the story evolves. *************************************************************** Pretty sad you skipped mentioning the defeats we celebrate as victories. I was really looking forward to that.

Oh really the other way around, you don't say. Go read what Josip Boljkovac said. Tudjman wanted the war he attacked first because both he and Milosevic knew that Croatia had the support of the west. Doesn't change the fact that it was still SFRJ and that there where as much Serbian citizens in the city at the time, the army was doing it's job. There was no YNA in Croatia when it was recognized as independent. Anything before that was in the sphere of influence of YNA, because it was still SFRJ. When they acquitted Naser Oric, they showed how big of a sham the Hag was. There was enough evidence to condemn them, it just didn't matter. Oh? Please do tell. I can't wait to hear this. Over 1000, not 1000. Oh so the good forces of Croatia were coming with open arms to keep the Serbs in Croatia safe... So Croats killed Croats in the war. Well I'm glad we got that figured out. All the examples you made, are dictators solidifying their rule. What reason did Milosevic have to kill Serbs in Croatia.

So you start burning our villages and attacking our citizens and we coming to defend are the aggressors. Funny how that works. I didn't say no Serbian soldiers in Croatia, I said no YNA in Croatia. The Krajine army was by your own sources in full retreat and not engaging the Croats. As for Vukovar. Well Vukovar was a Serbian city, how can we attack our own city? Vukovar was in the time of war, spring-winter 1991., a part of SFRJ. SFRJ existed till 1992. If the war in Vukovar was from 1992. (Croatian Independence) then it would be YNA aggression in Croatia. ... I find it bad that there wasn't any verdict at all. Because we knew the trials were going to be a sham, as was/is the case. Not for your people they weren't. Anyone in the Balkans yes, but when the whole western world started their war against us, of course we couldn't win. Our history is full of us beating the odds, what can you say about yours? But they weren't winning, which is the point. I am using your sources, you are making stuff up. Where in Milosevic's quotes did he say that? Where was it ordered and enforced? People were scared of the Croatian Army and they ran. Your own sources confirm that. Over 1000 civilians deaths confirm that they were right in their fears. Over 1000 deaths confirms that they weren't inflating anything. Again it makes no sense to force people to leave unless you fear for their safety. Without proof that is just slander. But hey, that is pretty much your MO thus far.

Dude, stop please, you are embarrassing your self. The bombing started with military objectives and it lasted for a couple of months, only after it proved infective did they start going for the infrastructure. They were trying to force Milosevic's hand, by making the life of Serbian civilians unbearable. "If Milosevics forces attempted to assemble in force to decisively defeat the KLA then they would have been hammered back to the Stoneage" Wow, you really don't know anything. The KLA was defeated, our forses were on the border with Albania, where the KLA along with the Albanian army was trying to force their way through, which they had no success with. **************************************************************************************************************************** Oh, how so? Not as much as Croatia, considering they sued us. Where did I quote them? Because our army also didn't go beyond the Croatian border. Serbs from the mainland were back in Serbia, Bosnian Serbs were fighting in Bosnia to defend our people, and the Serbs in Croatia as can be seen from your quotes in the post below this one, were in full retreat, so any fighting was instigated by your side. As for the Croatian army going to Serbian mainland, well that would have been suicide because that is where our main force was. Compared to the conflict in Bosnia and the NATO bombings in 1999. your country didn't see jack-****. Ah, but everything is obvious when the Serbs are in question? Precisely! They had their verdict in years time if that. While ours are still in Hag and the ones that aren't are dead, with no verdicts. What? If they were winning then they had absolutely no reason to bomb the Serbian mainland. But I guess this has been your level of discussion throughout the whole thread. ************************************************************************************************************************** Croatian sources one and all but ok I will bite. In the first paragraph you literally disproved everything you claimed up till now about operation Storm. Translation of the first paragraph: Milosevic: Please, 6 thousand Croats defended Vukovar for half a year, the whole first army attacked it, the airforce too, a wonder, all the might YNA had and they didn't defend Knin, which could only be accessed from 3 directions; they couldn't even defend it for 12 hours? They didn't defend it, because according to the reports which we got from the police officers, citizens and others, as soon as the artillery preparations ended at 7 p.m., they ordered-retreat (Serbian slang was used here). According to that there was no resistance or military conflicts with the Croatian armed forces.(...)An order was passed there for everyone to leave Krajine the same day, even without making contact with the Croatian army on the biggest part of the front. If we made an idiotic decision the same day to help them, who could arrive to Knina by the evening to help them. You couldn't unblock the way to there through the rows of them which crowded the roads in their retreat together with the civilians.(...) The question is, who really made the decision for the Krajina command to leave Krajina. That decision, when they had the means to defend them selves, caused an exodus. So now that should be a reason for Yugoslavia to run there to defend those territories, from which they ran like rabbits?! So now that people can read the whole paragraph what do we see? It's obvious that he was talking about the Krajina Army, everywhere he mentions there being an order he also mention that they avoided engaging the Croatian army. He even mentions that they where running with the civilians. Second point, they were attacked by the Croatian army so we can see, by your sources, that the Croatian army was indeed attacking and indeed had everything to do with the mass exodus of Serbs from Croatia. As for the second paragraph it doesn't disprove anything I said. Officers where preparing the evacuation of the civilians because Ustase(the Croatian army) were coming. As for the rest of the quotes, they can all be brought down to: Serbian soldiers killed Serbian civilians. That makes absolutely no sense! Firstly, the sources you quoted say them selves that they have no proofs about the deaths. Secondly, you show no proof that Serbian solders where the ones who did that. Thirdly, those quotes have nothing to do with the discussion at hand and are a cheap attempt to villainize the Serbs. But hey that has been your whole defense through out the discussion we had.

Wut?!? O_o

You do know that the war in Kosovo began before the bombings and that the only reason for the bombings was to force our land forces to move back from Kosovo? You were losing the proxy land war and weren't willing to commit your self to a land war. So try to demean Serbs all you want, the fact remains that you couldn't do jack-**** on the ground. Are you for real? Did you really think I meant invisible to the naked eye? LoL... What does that have to do with anything? OK, you have better planes now, what does that have to with us shooting down non stealth planes? Also worth mentioning, since you went there, those planes have a limited shelf life and cost extreme amounts of money to make. What incursion? What are you talking about? We were already in Kosovo, we were winning, even despite the air support from NATO. Then in 1999 you started bombing us, first our military objects (which didn't accomplish anything because we moved everything that mattered), it's only when you started going for our countries infrastructure, ie. soft targets, power plant, power mains and water plants did we eventually give up. Why go in to a discussion about Kosovo when you obviously don't know anything about the conflict?

Anyone with two peanuts in their head knows that they will use it for more then that.

So basically your argument is: "I'm right and you are wrong". 1) Well you certainly didn't have a problem with dismissing what I said. Yeah I'm lazy because I don't search for your sources too, just admit that you couldn't find them... 2)And I claim that it's because Operation Storm. Which is more likely I'll let others decide. 3)That is only about half the Serbs who left. 4)Well we certainly don't claim over 11000, maybe 1100. Well, we had over 1100 people missing, they still haven't showed up, so we presume them dead. But certainly not as much as it is in the interest of Croatia to lie. The trial is under way, people who are interested can see what proof we offer and what proof Croatia offers. I don't seem to be able to find it, would you kindly provide me with the links? Wikipedia is anything but neutral as it mostly relies on the western sources. My sources are as valid as yours, unless you have the proof to show otherwise. Oh please Croatia barely saw any of the conflict, while I have family from Bosnia that went through the thick of it. Oh yeah we only saw the bombs drop on the news... You showed how little you know even about the most basic of information. I haven't denied the wrongs the Serbian side has done, but you are still defending even the most obvious wrongs Croatia has committed. Oh yeah, you have trialed everyone but the people who matter. While we had our biggest political figures during the war jailed, and never found guilty. We shot down 2 of the invisible planes with the third unconfirmed, do you find it that strange that we shot down "regular planes" too. The only reason it even came to bombing Serbia is because America couldn't force our soldiers from Kosovo, ie. they were losing.

Ok, now I'm really weirded out. How do Obys post keep appearing out of nowhere. For an example when I first posted in this thread, no Oby post, when I came backe to check it out again, he has a second post in the thread. Are the mods approving his post so they have a delay or what? Well, it's more like some people here are going: "Omg, Russia is so corrupt, they censor everything. Putin is so evil.". Then by proxy the rest of the countries are just as corrupt and "evil". I guess what, I am trying to say is, clean up your own back yard before complaining about your neighbors.

But clearly you are telling the truth. Right? If it's easy find them. So they deported 200 thousand Serbs from their homes and jobs, to make Croatia look bad? Then I have a question, why don't those 200 thousand Serbs come back to their homes now? The war is over there should be no problems, right? The transcripts also prove that Operation Storm was sanctioned and supported by the west. Why would they then go and in their own court incriminate them selves? Yeah, people are supposed to believe that CA just went for a stroll to stretch their legs and 1000 dead and 200 thousand banished are just a coincidence. Show me some source or proof for those removed non-Serbs from Croatia. So 324 are dead by your sources and the remaining 700 don't exist? Or did they go on a vacation and forgot to come back? LoL. Wikipedia. LoL Also let's get something clear, my sources are people who were in the war and people who were banished from their homes, those are the people I trust and they have no reason to lie. The links I provide are for the benefit of others who don't know what happened.

Are you guys for real, because I'm laughing my ass off. Did you forget about Snowden and what he said about the NSA censorship of the internet. For ****s sake even the UK is getting its paws on youtube and can now censor anything it deems worthy. Yeah Putin is not a nice guy. No one here is claiming that, but lets get something clear, neither are the rest of the worlds superpowers.

Show me those videos you keep mentioning. You don't know how ridiculous you sound. Why would RSK order such things? Why would I answer strawmans, that have 0 bases in what happened in the real world? Yeah, clearly. Because you provided sources and spoke sensibly in these last few pages. You don't know how ridiculous your claim about operation Storm sounds. In Zagreb.

It's funny that you think America reported their real losses in Afghanistan or Iraq. I know about their reports in Vietnam, where they lost hundreds of airplanes and claimed to have lost only a couple of dozen. And where did I post a source that claimed 300 shot down planes during NATO bombing, in fact were did I CLAIM that? You didn't even read the links I posted...

Can you really be that simple? If an army is coming, you run away from it. The 1000 who didn't run obviously payed for it. Anyone who reads it can clearly see what was the intent of Operation Storm. You obviously haven't read it, as can be seen from you previous post. You just repeat like a parrot what the west said. Did I not just say that I have been to Croatia? Talked to a few Croats, never about the war but I talked to them like a normal person would.