Osvir

Where does the Druid gain this innate knowledge to just.. *poof* .. "I know all spells now"? If a person in Eora decides "I want to be a Druid", nature is all like "Cool bro! Here ya go, here's a vast amount of Natural Energy Knowledge that I'm just going to hand out to you, have fun!". And if becoming a "Druid" is something that is "called upon" by greater forces and powers all "You are the Chosen One, Druid" from Mother Nature herself... wouldn't a "Druid" be more of a title akin to the "Watcher" and be a much stronger archetype narratively and have a bigger impact on Story and World? Isn't Druid something you train to become as well? Isn't it something that requires much devotion to the land and nature itself, and you GROW (which is one of the most natural aspects in the world) over time? I put Priests in this bin as well, because their Deity is like "Cool! You got to Level 3, that's how we know you are closer to me! Even if your dialogue options are completely wrong for my Faith but here is all the spells for this Level! Have fun!". Building characters is fun, but this takes out a lot of the "Building" out of the Character. Thus it takes out lots of "Fun", in my opinion. EDIT: The Druid should become closer to nature over time and perhaps even grow into nature... This is a rethorical idea for Lore: The Druid could literally becomes One with Nature, after mastering the Zen of Nature. A Master Druid, the highest goal of a Druid should be to become part of Nature. So a Mega Master Level 100 Druid could have eventually transformed into a tree a bush or even to become the flowing river along Dyrford Village. To reach ultimate Enlightenment for a Druid should be to become a part of Nature, to grow into Nature. It shouldn't be, in my opinion, a hand out. Why is the Druid a Master Naturalist right away?

I like the Generalist approach as well.... if I want to build it a Generalist. I can build a Generalist Wizard if I want to. But the Druid is a "generalist" by default and will always be a Generalist. Sorry, 3rd post in a row but I wanted to address this yet again. A Wizard can be built specified towards a specific "build", or it can be built towards a Generalist Wizard (if one wants to do that). The Wizard has all the options. The Druid doesn't have any option. These are thoughts regarding the Spell System and gaining Spells as you level up as a Druid, not Attributes/Skills/Talents. Let's turn the entire thing around, rethorically: - How would people feel if the Wizard got all of his/her Spells at Level Up and became a Generalist Wizard by default and you couldn't build the Spell arsenal in any special way?

I remember Josh saying something about not allowing players to build themes is a "bad thing". Unfortunately I can't find the specific comment, because it is either in an interview, a comment or tumblr, somewhere on the net. Suffice to say, there's many interviews with Josh. If anyone else recalls reading a similar thing, please, chime in. Otherwise I'll just search it~ Here's one answer on the deep dive PCWorld: And from Kotaku: These were not the comments or contexts I was looking for though, just saying. But they reflect the sentiment of the comment I was looking for. The Druids "default Generalist" settings restricts the Player from "choosing" what do "build" on a very basic level. A "Growth Druid", as I suggest, wouldn't even be a difficult thing to implement. It's an Easily Implementable Idea because Obsidian already has the code for it in Character Creation for other variables.

Absolutely, but you have to put other classes in parallel in my opinion. If you want a Muscle Wizard you build the Attributes in a certain way, and pick Spells on level up, and pick talents when leveling up. You'll succeed in building a Muscle Wizard. If you want to build a Fire Wizard, or an Illusioist Wizard, you can do this as well and you'll probably put points in different Attributes as you do so. If you want a Spiritshifter Druid, you build the Attributes in a certain way, get all Spells on level up, and pick talents when leveling up. You'll succeed in building a Generalist Druid with a focus in Spiritshifting. I will always have the entire arsenal of spells up my sleeve, regardless how I build it. What if I don't want a Wizard, but instead want a magic-caster Druid with only debuffs, slows and damage spells? Then I'll be a Generalist Druid with a focus on casting. Why are the options and choices available for Wizard, Chanter, Cipher, but not for the Druid? Is it because of D&D mechanics (that are counter-intuitive in terms of "building characters") or is it something else... percieved nostalgia? I don't think this "mechanic" for the Druid drives anything about "nostalgia" in me. It's just an old idea that needs improvement, and doesn't fit in 2014. I like the Generalist approach as well.... if I want to build it a Generalist. I can build a Generalist Wizard if I want to. But the Druid is a "generalist" by default and will always be a Generalist. I also think the topic title of this thread is rather intelligent, as it made the beginning of my post a "... or an old mechanic?" instead of starting with "So... I built a Nature Godlike..." etc. (Something I picked up at Something Awful Forum Rules i.e. "How to not start a post").

@Indira: Exactly what I was thinking, regarding "clerics and druids.... all spells... inheritance D&D...". Is this a remnant "spell learning" idea that carried over from D&D universe (Forgotten Realms), and does it fit with Pillars of Eternity's Eora world/universe? Does it fit with 2014? Does Druids have to learn spells in Pillars of Eternity like they learn spells in Baldur's Gate? Are they the same type of Druids? Did the Generalist Druids from Forgotten Realms open a portal into Eora and did they bring the Clerics with them (under the guise of "Priests")? A "Growing" Druid is, after all, an easy fix "Kit" or "School" in Character Creation (Copy Cipher Character Creation+level up code formula, rename and use assets/materials on Druid). Druids and Priests have new vision, ideas, mechanics, feels, but they are still stuck in something that's not really "nostalgia", it's just an old/copy+pasted D&D mechanic/narrative. I read on Clerics D&D learning curve~ and I get it, the Cleric is getting closer to their Deity/God with every level. That's a cool idea, on paper, and probably in Pen & Paper Roleplays it's probably amazing. But it doesn't translate well to a PC game imo, where the gamers are used to putting out points and often times enjoy having a list of 10 abilities, but can only pick perhaps 2 at a time (and can also see which they can take on a later level). Building a Priest of Berath, and only getting 1-2 Spell Points (to spend on spells) every level would be cool, and then I can buy the rest at a Temple~ On my Level 1-5 list I did, Druids got [NOTHING] on Level 2 and 4. They got Skills (stealth, lore etc), on Level 1 All Tier-1 Spells, Level 3, All Tier-2 Spells, Level 5, All Tier-3 Spells. Let the Spell list grow into the Druid, the knowledge grow into the Druid. I.E: Instead of a "Grimoire" like the Wizard, the Druid can have "Growth"... "We are Groot" (speaking of which... no Tree Ent Spiritshift?) I suspect that Druids D&D have something similar "They grow closer to the land with every level"~ shouldn't that progressively represent itself instead of "Here ya go Druid, you grew a bit closer to the land so we're giving you this entire arsenal". It doesn't break immersion, but it does break Class/Party "theme"-ideas/builds. When I could make everyone in the Dracogen Inn into a Skeleton, I was super happy and laughed so hard that it was possible for me to do that (It was a build I chose to pursue, and it worked). With the Generalist Druid there is none of that. The problem here isn't customization on a second-hand level. I'm talking about how the Druid gains their spells and abilities, and the Priest as well. They get it all at once! So even if I customize my Druid along the way to be a better Spiritshifter, he/she is still going to get all spells and be a "Generalist Druid with a focus on Spiritshifting". Parallelly: A Wizard can be built into an "Illusionist" and customize their talents, level ups, gear etc. towards that build. A Druid becomes a Generalist, regardless, with specializations added on top of it. A bit of a repeat but: Example #1 Priest: - You pick Priest - A new window is opened, and you can see the different Dieties. Example #2 Druid: Concept Idea - You pick Druid - A new window is opened with 2 options - Natural Druid (who gains all spells on level up+talents) - Growth Druid (who grows into a build+talents)

Well... the land itself could be a "grimoire". The Growing Druid idea would pick up all spells as he/she goes along the road without any "memorization". When I say "like a Wizard" I mean the level up process, not Grimoire management.

My dream system is to pick an archetype (Fighter, Wizard, Druid, Monk etc.) at character creation, but as I level up I'll get a classless option as well as guiding my character depending on which road I take in-game. 1 Class with all skills on the board and available to anyone... So I could start a Fighter and then get "Grimoire Knowledge" across the game and become a Fighter with Magic abilites. Or even start as a Monk who goes down the path of a Druid~ but that's just talking about a system we won't see... unless Obsidian includes a 12th Class, a "Commoner" Class that gets points on everything every level~ a flat-out mix-n-match Class that the Player can build into whatever they want~

Well put. But, could it be possible to pick either "Generalist Druid" or "Build Druid"? Example (Priest or Paladin): - "Kits", both Priest and Paladin have "Schools". Technically, in the code when you pick "Priest", a new window is opened with the Dieties. - Parallelly: Pick Druid, open new window like above. - Pick between "Natural Druid" (Generalist) or "Growing Druid" (Build it yourself, like a Wizard/Chanter/Cipher)

... an Old Mechanic? I started a game with a Nature Godlike Druid, wanted to build him into a Spiritshifter Druid. But I got all spells as I leveled up, which is convenient and a bit overwhelming at once. The character became a Generalist Druid that knows how to Spiritshift. I am curious if possible to make both Priest and Druid learn spells like Wizards, Chanters, Ciphers etc. it's more fun to build any of the 3 latter too. Pick a few at a time, buy or train the rest. What I wanted to build was a Spiritshifter Druid, not a Generalist Druid that knows Spiritshifting. The same thing goes for Priest, where they learn all deity spells in the same way. I think it'd be more fun to pick a couple spells adhering to the same "theme" over time rather than get it all at once. Or gain few spells at a time instead of everything all at once. Does the Druid Level Up/Spell Gain Mechanic fit with Pillars of Eternity? There are no "Kits" (afaik) in Pillars of Eternity. Generalist Druid or Suggestion: - Give Druids a couple of points per level, like Wizards. Do you build a melee Spiritshift Druid or do you build an Elementalist Druid? Animal Druid? Etc. etc. Is the Generalist IE Druid Good or Old?

Soooo... Just to list them better EDIT: With some additions /EDIT Strength/Might = +Melee Damage +Negative Status Effect Duration Constitution = +Health/Stamina +Magic Healing Recieved Dexterity = +Melee Accuracy +Ranged Reload Speed (Would this affect casting too?) Perception = +Melee Crit +Ranged/Magic Accuracy +Interrupt Intelligence = +AoE +Positive Status Effect Duration Resolve = +Magic Damage +Concentration So I added an idea myself. Why could Constitution govern healing? Well... I think it'd be more interesting with a mechanic that heals more based on how good shape the characters soul/body is. He'll recieve better healing the better shape he is in. Doesn't Constitution govern how well you defend against poisons and stuff in D&D? That should mean a "Healthier character", and the more Healthy you are, the easier and better it should be to treat you? Right? My suggestion is to replace "Healing Delivered" with "Healing Recieved". As it is now: - Priest Heals more depending on the Priests MIG. My idea: - Priest Heals more depending on the Targets CON. EDIT: I kind of like "Might" as a title though, so I don't see why it should be replaced with "Strength" (as a title). Strength/Might just becomes... very lacking and very bland with only "+Melee Damage". So I added in "Duration of Status Effects" as a suggestion, because that's where I see it make more sense. A character overpowering poison by sheer physical strength, or breaking free from a "Hold Person" spell etc. or running through an area that is "Entangled". How long your character is knocked down before raising themselves physically, or how long a character is stunned~ EDIT EDIT: Though, I'm just throwing stuff out here to participate in this conversation I'm kind of fine with the Attribute system thus far. I'm waiting for more stability before saying anything about the system (this post is me saying stuff about Fearrabbits ideas/system added with some brainstorming) and get a better feel for the system, and to be able to level up a couple of times without bugs.

I only did Level 1-5 because getting to Level 5-8 is difficult due to bugs. It'd take 11 times 3 hours, 33~ hours to get all data. Maybe use this thread for Level 5+? If someone gets past Level 5-6 they could add in more, right?

Oh I agree, which is why I said it's the first beta, things are supposed to be wonky. (I do wish though they had ensured that saving/loading was stable, as of now I don't save my games because they cause all sorts of glitches when I do. In my first game I played a Paladin, and after saving loading not only did equipment start disappearing, my Paladin got a Deflection bonus of 2972, meaning she could basically solo the entire beta, which she did) But anyway, both can be worked on at the same time, and even if the 1st is a problem, it does not prevent us from seeing the problems of the second. One thing I forgot to mention in my OP are the character movement speed, which @Sensuki mentioned in his combat thread. In the IE games characters did not run, in this that's all they do in combat resulting huge amounts of confusion and problems. Saving and Loading might work excellently in the Full Build. The BB is a cut out piece given to us to try and enjoy, but cutting it out like they have caused more bugs. The full build might be more stable than what we see in the BB. I also suspect that Obsidian cut out something very important (by accident) because the code seems to reading itself backwards. That's why they want help with Missing Strings (I presume). 1 Missing String in the chunk of code can make everything messed up. We see this in looped code as well: I had a created Rogue+BB Rogue in my party, Finishing Blow was activating/deactivating over and over and over. The code itself for Finishing Blow might be fine, or that paragraph of code, but if there's a code further down the line, or the "parent code" that's missing something, it can get all wonky.

1st: Let's deal with the technical issues. 2nd: Discuss balance/design. Repeat. If you can't play "2nd" because "1st" is a problem, aren't you kind of skipping over/ignoring a pretty important step?

I don't want to sound as if it's forced Micheal but if one has a beta key and has some free time, why not, right? I was just providing my own mentality when going in, because it helps my enjoyment. If I were to be critical about everything I'd get burnt out, angry and negative about everything and it seems that a lot of people got stuck in that mentality. Some people find more enjoyment and laughter in negativity and trolling than positivity~ people have different views on what is "fun" and what is not "fun". The problem with the former (the negativity) is that it's not assessing how fun or enjoyable the game is, it's assessing how fun a person is having making fun of something, whilst the latter (positivity) does. I was a bit harsh on the Codex (and feel a lil bit bad for it too) to one of the fellows over there, but that was mostly to put him down on the ground after an outburst of "Waaah! Waaah!". Bad excuse maybe but oh well... Here's some more stuff that would fulfill my dreams, combined with the Screenshots in my above post http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs22/f/2009/251/1/c/Top_Hat_Skull_by_ElloKatieRose.jpg http://www.lfgcomic.com/page/9/

First: - Technical Issues Second: - Design implementation Third: - Did that cause Technical Issues? Repeat.

Enjoy: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=305028818 EDIT: But unfortunately... http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=305034007

Rumbald* is the only character/object that has made me wonder if I'm partially blind. Went up to him to get the quest once, and I was all like "Did he leave? Does he have a partol scheme? ... nvm there he is" xD Otherwise I agree that the characters merge with the background sometimes and are difficult to see. We've got to consider that all shadows and lighting effects aren't in by a long-shot... I suspect. Worst is it when you stand behind something like a tree or behind the pillars in Stormwall Gorge (by the Pwgra). * I spread out the characters in an attempt to hide them as best as I could to give a bit of a contrast to which textures affect blends with which colors.

Okok, I took it as Modal/Passive because it is in the Fighter's quickbar~

The skull key on the cliff through the Cave? One would believe it leads to the nearby Ruins (that leads into the Village)... but what if the key is meant for something in the Stormwall Gorge ruins? EDIT: Also, if this is the Dyrford Ruins where I think it is... have you clicked the door? If so, leave the area and then enter again and then the door should be open (at least that's what happened for me).

Nah, it's weekend. Might bump this on a weekday, it would attract people to the chat if QA or Dev went there and communicated directly, methodically or a dev just jumping in for feedback~ like Larian did with Global Chat. Also, if Obsidian would say "we're gonna be in chat around this-this time" everyone would know where the chat-room is.

Either use this link to get to Pillars of Eternity Community (there's an underlined button "Group Chat"): http://steamcommunity.com/app/317120/#scrollTop=0 Or... 1- "Right-Click" Pillars of Eternity Public Beta in your Steam Library, 2- Pick "View Community Hub" 3- Click "Group Chat". I remember Larian mentioning how nice it was to go into the Global Chat they built for D:OS and ask players what they felt etc. It can also be a place for us to communicate more directly with each other when playing. Alt+Tab opens up "Steam Community" in game and you can discuss in Group Chat easily whilst you are playing/testing. Could report bugs directly to each other~ Just an idea.

Another thing that I can't say myself if working (would need more feedback), but I think the Beta has become more and more stable since I booted it the very first time. Partially because I'm avoiding bugs I know, surely, but I dunno... I'm curious if this does anything in terms of stability too.

I read something about this, item stacks cause bugs and vanishing inventory. I'm currently testing without picking anything up, just running around an fighting where needed/unavoidable. Heading into Stormwall Gorge directly after character creation (because going East unlocks West too, and avoiding dialogue and interaction in Dyrford Village or any code running in Dyrford for too long). "How can I progress forward and avoid known bugs whilst looking for new ones?" Code seems to be written backwards, most likely a missing string somewhere missing an [end line] or something, causing the code to loop or read backwards. - Just look at the save file sorting. - Doing Quests backwards increase chances of success. - Loading seems to reset stuff. - Going East to Dyrford Crossing opens up Stormwall as well. - Going West unlocks only Stormwall. Indicating less buggy. - Loading game in Stormwall hasn't reset any gear for me. - Stormwall Gorge feels like the most stable area in this build, imo.

You can force attack yourself in Pillars of Eternity. Should still be in as a design decision in my opinion, they could make a spell effect/trigger to make the player character attack him/herself (Confusion/Fear/Horror/CriticalMiss).

Yep. Hopefully it'll be expanded on, or give us some pointers and we could make stuff up to inspire~