Osvir

Lorekeeper (Druidic Talent) - Gain Extra +3 Lore as a Druid, +2 as any other Class +Attacking/+Casting Time Reduced (Might be a bit OP, as Attacks = More Lore from enemies, but it also makes sense in a way.. someone who knows lots of Lore... knows how to retrieve it faster? *shrug*)

How about some simulated animalistic AI behavior? Ideas: - Spiders always moving with body facing player/target, side-scrolling in a half-circle, being fast (like a spider is) and gnaw at the party and then jump out quick and repeat. Slows, Entagle, Hold Beast, Debuffs to be able to defeat. - Lions stalking the Player if they get wind, and the longer you get stalked, the more lions fall in line in the hunt. Circling towards your rear flank at the edge of your Field of View. It would be cool if there was a sort of "Holographic" Illusion Spell you could leave and then bait Lions into it whilst you thread along the road out of harm~ - Wolf packs in more open wilderness areas, running in circles. - Beetles "Wild Rushing" in as they innitate.

@Pro Kill-XP: As far as I recall, Experience will function in such a way that you get experience just for opening the block down to the Dyrford Ruins. You'll get "chips" of experience as you get further, and then a chunkier reward at the end. I recall someone saying that if you check your Character Sheet in your inventory whilst exploring, you should see it go up in Experience at some few points at this time (Note, just hearsay until proven otherwise). So to get to the experience, sometimes you will have to defeat Beetles along the way, which won't give you experience. In essence, you want the XP right away as a quick "fix", when it is just 3-4 seconds away from where you killed the Beetles and you get a "chip" of experience. Kill XP isn't necessary. EDIT: But I can't deny that 2 different level systems for 1 pool is alluring me. Character/Class Levels and Skill Levels that gain Skill Experience and Weapon Levels that gain Weapon Experience. Killed some 3 guys worth 100 xp each? 300 XP to your Weapon, and to your Character/Class. Snuck by them? Gain 300 XP to your Skills & Character/Class. That's 3 Level Systems: - Character/Class Levels 1-12 - When you get Experience to Skills, you get Experience to Class, when you get Experience to Weapons, you get Experience to Class, etc - Skill Levels Gained by using different methods of getting by enemies or hostiles, and by completing objectives with more guile and perhaps even intellect where least men or women take physical harm. A dialogue rich character. - Weapon Levels By slaughtering and destroying everything around you, you become a fierce warrior. As you travel the road, sometimes it might be good to choose the more physical path even when you are a stealthy or diplomatic character (just to prepare you for harder fights later). And sometimes take the safe road where no one comes to harm, even though you destroyed everything along the way, and you gain experience in both ways, the experience will benefit the Skill- or Weapon Level and always benefit the Character Level. /End Idea.

Just something I found, for more Druidic inspiration. http://arsmagica.wikia.com/wiki/Druidic_Relations_With_the_Fae Though, with this sort of explanation, then it'd make sense if the Druid got all spells (the spirits of the soul gathering to the Druid, who holds secret knowledge). This could explain a Druid, but it still puts it in the generalist pit. This also serves as Drudic inspiration, only historically rethroical (the essence of the evolution): My Druid imagined is somewhere around 1-5 and the 2002 Hero~

The background system doesn't seem to make much sense with our limited vision right now. I'd tie background to areas and classes. An Aristocrat Ranger, as described by the Aristocrat background, sounds weird. Unless aristocrat elves also work as rangers? But unless the game states it otherwise, we could assume that between the time of the background and the beginning of the game, some time could have passed if you decide that for your character. I view it as a character that either once was an Aristocrat, prior to the beginning of the game, and that they either recently picked up the "Ranged" arts, or perhaps even was a hunter with a hunting rifle, hunting animals with a trusted companion, or perhaps found a companion and bonded with it spiritually during the course of hunting (depending on the animal). They could even be an Aristocrat when the game begins, and circumstances (and the path you have chosen) lead them towards the "Ranger" archetype moreso than the "Aristocrat" archetype.

Most excellent! 17:30-18:50: "Portraits" Post-19:20 revelation. 20:53: "Minimalistic UI" 26:53: "Run speed". 30:36: "Door outside" 30:59: "Sounds" 39:53: "UI Windows, Character Windows et" 50:15: "General combat is repetetive" 51:45: "Base classes are boring" 52:22: "Characters/Enemies should drop everything", 52:55: "Animals creatures should be neutral", Great video Sensuki, I enjoyed listening and many great points, admittedly I think some are a bit premature what with v257 (but probably very helpful still, to get an idea of what sort of end-product you wish for). Lots of enlightening stuff too. Not a request but perhaps it gives you an idea in turn: Making an "In-Depth: Fighter Class" "Wizard Class" etc, video, and show some combat and tactics/strategy and even attempt to build different builds with the material that exists. EDIT: Attachment: - The 3 abilities that sits awkwardly on top of the mid-piece (Resting, Inventory, Character) could be squeezed down to follow a "line". The Stealth button could be furthest to the left above "Select All".

Who was the character before he became a Fighter? Let's say a slave. By picking up a sword one day, he became a Fighter? Or did he begin a path towards becoming one? EDIT: And I am converted and enlightened, the INT ideas/brainstorm weren't really properly well thought out, but it sparked some interesting discussion I do like the intensity of risks and challenges, and want to have the idea that nothing is truly "safe" in this world of Eora (Soulstorms anyone?). Animancy is an old ancient art, that just now has been re-discovered (as I understand it). It is in its infancy, anew~ that's how I view it, and thus magic that is wild and untamable could be commonplace.

Now that we actually got the Beta on our hands, I thought it interesting to re-visit an old topic. This is 1 test portrait I made, to try and test how well the 3D model face would fit in the UI in-game. I think it fits pretty well and has this sort of old-school tone to it (this also gave me an idea on some sort of Portrait Builder. You could use the 3D model as a photo-model, create different expressions, angry, sad, etc. etc. and when taking a Screenshot/Camera Shot it could define the size of the image automatically). I also tried making a 2nd character by the same concept to see what it would look with more characters (Conclusion: If I spent more time with it it'd look really cool I think). There's also a sense of "height" of the character in the portraits, albeit the Elf looks extremely tiny xD Basically, I got inspired to make this Aumaua portrait by seeing a Codex post with all zoomed in characters, then when I had done it I realized "Oh wait, this really old idea I had. This is it!"~ hence the necro. It's the Doom guy concept (the lower the health, the different the expression). 3D models are easier and faster to work with? (For portraits) I absolutely love the 2D Portraits as art pieces, but many do not represent the characters I want to create and neither do they provide the same speed/effictivity/content for a developer/designer/content creator~ these are brainstormed ideas, I do not suggest that Obsidian ditch 2D portraits, this is more personal a la: "Finally I can explain my point!" xD

What about effectivity then PrimeJunta? If MIG could boost the MAX Power... could INT boost MIN Power? Example: 10 MIG, 10 INT = 10-20 Damage 20 MIG, 10 INT = 10-30 Damage 10 MIG, 20 INT = 20-20 Damage EDIT: The sense of my idea: An intelligent character does not perhaps deal more damage, but they'd be intelligent enough to deal approximately the same damage repeatedly. They'd be able to shape their attacks in a more likely form to deal the same damage over and over again (be it with a sword or with a spell) /EDIT At the moment, INT isn't very valuable for all Non-Caster Classes. Even within the Caster Classes it's debated whether it's useful or not. I think that INT should have a bigger impact, generally. It's probably going to get a bigger difference in AoE radius-size I suspect, and that might be enough. But until that point, I wanted to put these ideas on the table at the very least~

I agree that there's inheritantly a pretty annoying "RNG" value in this idea, but that doesn't mean that there's a solution to that as well! These thoughts are related to: A) Some people are whining about the Attribute system B) Some people want penalties on Attributes C) A Muscle Wizard gains no disadvantages. Sure, their abilities won't last for as long and their AoE isn't as big as it possibly could be. D) Intelligence is interesting on Narratively built characters, in Combat... not so interesting. One solution (Idea) to add: - Level ups. When you're Level 1 with 1-3 Intelligence then your first Tier 1 spells won't be as effective and/or have a chance to backfire on you. - When you get to level 3-4, your Tier 1 Spells could get 100% success rate. When you get to Level 12 with 3 Intelligence, you'd be able to use almost all of your lower level Spells without disadvantage or risk, but your higher level Spells would still have the risk to them. Turning it around, having a 12-15 Intelligence would allow your spells to have a 90%-95% success rate throughout the entirety of the game, and 18-20 Intelligence would be 100% success rate throughout the entirety of the game. 3 Intelligence: (Concept/Idea/Broadstrike) - Wizard Level 1 - Tier 1 Spells have a 50% chance - Wizard Level 2 - Tier 1 Spells have 60% chance - Wizard Level 3 - Tier 1 Spells have 70% chance, Tier 2 Spells 50% - Wizard Level 4 - Tier 1 Spells have 80% chance, Tier 2 Spells 60% etc 18 Intelligence - Wizard Level 1 - Tier 1 Spells have 90% chance - Wizard Level 2 - Tier 1 Spells have 100% chance - Wizard Level 3 - Tier 2 Spells have 90% chance - Wizard Level 4 - Tier 2 Spells have 100% chance etc Also: Is Level 1 a trained adventurer, or someone just beginning their journeys? I view a Level 4-5 adventurer as a trained adventurer, a Level 10-12 a renowned adventurer.

Wait a minute before you jump to conclusion and assume based on title. What if Intelligence could govern chances of Magical/Ability success rate? Meaning: A low intelligence character has a higher chance of getting a spell or an ability blowing up in their face. A Knockdown ability that accidentally hits your teammate instead of the target, or an Escape ability that doesn't trigger. It makes sense, in a way, doesn't it? If Intelligence governs how you shape the powers, wouldn't a Low Intelligence shape Magic chaotically? Thoughts?

Like Utukka says: Attributes are fundamentally cosmetics, what the character looks like. In TES, "Attributes" is pretty much "Appearance". It's just more detailed in TES games (visually), and in D&D and Pillars of Eternity it is at its most basic form (with more depth to the mechanics): Text and numbers. Attributes define the characters physique, who they are, their personality, their determination, their smarts etc. etc. some might be stronger, so they are just better at wrestling against beetles. Some are fragile, but intelligent and powerful in their own way, and can scorch a beetle to ashes. "Attributes" tend to affect values and vanity, whilst "Appearance" (like in TES) affects nothing but vanity.

But the Attributes play a vital role narratively. RPG's have never been about a Level 1 Combat Strong character. You get a Level 12 Aumaua Barbarian with that item and those talents and those skills. Is Level 1 "da Build"?

The lore explains the Druids lore connection with nature, for sure, it does not explain the Druids growth into generalists (only statistically, under Spells). It is ambivalent. It says Druids can call these various powers (in a broad sense), that doesn't mean there are Druids that only call lightning, or Druids that only Spiritshift. Or Master Druids that have mastered all elements of nature. It does not say "a Druid" is what I'm saying. Priests have a good explanation to how they gain their powers (but I still think they should gain fewer at a time), much like the Clerics, Priests grow "closer" to their Diety by leveling up (and that's how they gain more spells). Is not Nature a Diety? The stronger the faith, the stronger the Priest.

Let's pretend the Attribute/Abilities screen does not exist, instead, you simply choose an archetype to begin with, and then you pick your choices along the way. Your Muscle Wizard that beats everything up with flaming fists (I.E. You've just successfully Multi-Classed to a Monk/Wizard Level 1). How? By picking the right gear and the right spells, attributes makes difference. I feel this system allows me to create my type of Wizard. Has anyone who built a Muscle Wizard tried making a purely INT Wizard with the same build in spells and gear? I.E. built the opposite of Muscle Wizard but with the same gear. The concept I play/flirt with here is to make Attributes almost only affect Out of Combat personality and Skills. Which they almost already do. I feel the attributes should define who the characters are, and leveling up defining what sort of spells, magic, you choose to build, strengths/weaknesses within an archetype. If a Muscle Wizard is too beefed up for melee combat, tone it down a little bit, but keep the theme. If Chanters can cast 3 permanent op Skeletons that are badass, tone it down a little, keep the theme (which they have already said too, Chanters will most likely get 1 Skeleton). 18 15 Skeletons will remain in memory <3 but Chanters and Wizards still have many options, allowing you to build the Class in various ways to make it become like you want it to become. I talk about this in the Druid "Good Mechanic or...?" thread as well, where the options to build the "Developing Character" in your own way is slimmer. I feel the combat is challenging at some times, and easy at other times. Tried Solo, 5 party and 6 party. Regardless how I build, some times it is a bit tough, and some times it is a breeze. Or a bug, or a mistake, or not fully understanding the system, or messing up. I've also messed up some builds and ideas, we've got to consider that we're facing Level 5 challenges in the Beta as well, and that my "mistake builds" may have been more viable if I had started as a Level 1 against Level 1 challenges. The idea with Attributes affecting mostly your avatar, your character: You start as an average joe Fighter, a physically built guy, and on level 2-3 you're maybe as strong as a village Guard. Or a well trained Bandit. Meaning, starting Attributes don't mean *cough* anything in combat, because it is in levels that your character is being "built", "buffed", "trained", and gear, spells, talents, abilities. Attributes should prioritize OoC abilities, primarily, and then you can tone down strength of the abilites (such as Chanter skeletons, Wizard Muscle, Corrosive Siphon, Cipher has something too etc.). Attributes is a cosmetic. Or it could be, that's how I view it. In these so called roleplaying games you become stronger as you journey and level up, not what you started as. Some Attribute builds may have a tougher initial time, but could probably eventually pull through and be a viable character. I mean, if that's what you want. They define the narrative as well. In reality, this is the system we have, but the balance lies perhaps in abilities, skills, talents and spells (general "level up" system), and not in attributes?

Helm! That's cool! You can build your character as you wish! +1

Msxyz, it just means that the differences between a weaker, low attribute character, and a high attribute character, makes a much more significant difference in-game. It might not look like much on your character "Wtf this Character has 3 Perception and gets +3 Accuracy, which is no different from +11 Accuracy from 11! I'll dumpstat this Perception thing". But against enemies that +8 Accuracy might help one of your builds significantly. The system might be built perfectly in fact, but the thing that's not built properly (in this Beta Build) is Enemy AI, Stats, Health/Stamina, Damage etc. COMBINED with technical issues we experience, and that's why you can't benefit from percieving the Attribute system or Build system properly. You don't bend the characters abilities after everything in the world, you bend the world after the characters abilities. In my opinion.

Where does the Druid gain this innate knowledge to just.. *poof* .. "I know all spells now"? If a person in Eora decides "I want to be a Druid", nature is all like "Cool bro! Here ya go, here's a vast amount of Natural Energy Knowledge that I'm just going to hand out to you, have fun!". And if becoming a "Druid" is something that is "called upon" by greater forces and powers all "You are the Chosen One, Druid" from Mother Nature herself... wouldn't a "Druid" be more of a title akin to the "Watcher" and be a much stronger archetype narratively and have a bigger impact on Story and World? Isn't Druid something you train to become as well? Isn't it something that requires much devotion to the land and nature itself, and you GROW (which is one of the most natural aspects in the world) over time? I put Priests in this bin as well, because their Deity is like "Cool! You got to Level 3, that's how we know you are closer to me! Even if your dialogue options are completely wrong for my Faith but here is all the spells for this Level! Have fun!". Building characters is fun, but this takes out a lot of the "Building" out of the Character. Thus it takes out lots of "Fun", in my opinion. EDIT: The Druid should become closer to nature over time and perhaps even grow into nature... This is a rethorical idea for Lore: The Druid could literally becomes One with Nature, after mastering the Zen of Nature. A Master Druid, the highest goal of a Druid should be to become part of Nature. So a Mega Master Level 100 Druid could have eventually transformed into a tree a bush or even to become the flowing river along Dyrford Village. To reach ultimate Enlightenment for a Druid should be to become a part of Nature, to grow into Nature. It shouldn't be, in my opinion, a hand out. Why is the Druid a Master Naturalist right away?

I like the Generalist approach as well.... if I want to build it a Generalist. I can build a Generalist Wizard if I want to. But the Druid is a "generalist" by default and will always be a Generalist. Sorry, 3rd post in a row but I wanted to address this yet again. A Wizard can be built specified towards a specific "build", or it can be built towards a Generalist Wizard (if one wants to do that). The Wizard has all the options. The Druid doesn't have any option. These are thoughts regarding the Spell System and gaining Spells as you level up as a Druid, not Attributes/Skills/Talents. Let's turn the entire thing around, rethorically: - How would people feel if the Wizard got all of his/her Spells at Level Up and became a Generalist Wizard by default and you couldn't build the Spell arsenal in any special way?

I remember Josh saying something about not allowing players to build themes is a "bad thing". Unfortunately I can't find the specific comment, because it is either in an interview, a comment or tumblr, somewhere on the net. Suffice to say, there's many interviews with Josh. If anyone else recalls reading a similar thing, please, chime in. Otherwise I'll just search it~ Here's one answer on the deep dive PCWorld: And from Kotaku: These were not the comments or contexts I was looking for though, just saying. But they reflect the sentiment of the comment I was looking for. The Druids "default Generalist" settings restricts the Player from "choosing" what do "build" on a very basic level. A "Growth Druid", as I suggest, wouldn't even be a difficult thing to implement. It's an Easily Implementable Idea because Obsidian already has the code for it in Character Creation for other variables.

Absolutely, but you have to put other classes in parallel in my opinion. If you want a Muscle Wizard you build the Attributes in a certain way, and pick Spells on level up, and pick talents when leveling up. You'll succeed in building a Muscle Wizard. If you want to build a Fire Wizard, or an Illusioist Wizard, you can do this as well and you'll probably put points in different Attributes as you do so. If you want a Spiritshifter Druid, you build the Attributes in a certain way, get all Spells on level up, and pick talents when leveling up. You'll succeed in building a Generalist Druid with a focus in Spiritshifting. I will always have the entire arsenal of spells up my sleeve, regardless how I build it. What if I don't want a Wizard, but instead want a magic-caster Druid with only debuffs, slows and damage spells? Then I'll be a Generalist Druid with a focus on casting. Why are the options and choices available for Wizard, Chanter, Cipher, but not for the Druid? Is it because of D&D mechanics (that are counter-intuitive in terms of "building characters") or is it something else... percieved nostalgia? I don't think this "mechanic" for the Druid drives anything about "nostalgia" in me. It's just an old idea that needs improvement, and doesn't fit in 2014. I like the Generalist approach as well.... if I want to build it a Generalist. I can build a Generalist Wizard if I want to. But the Druid is a "generalist" by default and will always be a Generalist. I also think the topic title of this thread is rather intelligent, as it made the beginning of my post a "... or an old mechanic?" instead of starting with "So... I built a Nature Godlike..." etc. (Something I picked up at Something Awful Forum Rules i.e. "How to not start a post").

@Indira: Exactly what I was thinking, regarding "clerics and druids.... all spells... inheritance D&D...". Is this a remnant "spell learning" idea that carried over from D&D universe (Forgotten Realms), and does it fit with Pillars of Eternity's Eora world/universe? Does it fit with 2014? Does Druids have to learn spells in Pillars of Eternity like they learn spells in Baldur's Gate? Are they the same type of Druids? Did the Generalist Druids from Forgotten Realms open a portal into Eora and did they bring the Clerics with them (under the guise of "Priests")? A "Growing" Druid is, after all, an easy fix "Kit" or "School" in Character Creation (Copy Cipher Character Creation+level up code formula, rename and use assets/materials on Druid). Druids and Priests have new vision, ideas, mechanics, feels, but they are still stuck in something that's not really "nostalgia", it's just an old/copy+pasted D&D mechanic/narrative. I read on Clerics D&D learning curve~ and I get it, the Cleric is getting closer to their Deity/God with every level. That's a cool idea, on paper, and probably in Pen & Paper Roleplays it's probably amazing. But it doesn't translate well to a PC game imo, where the gamers are used to putting out points and often times enjoy having a list of 10 abilities, but can only pick perhaps 2 at a time (and can also see which they can take on a later level). Building a Priest of Berath, and only getting 1-2 Spell Points (to spend on spells) every level would be cool, and then I can buy the rest at a Temple~ On my Level 1-5 list I did, Druids got [NOTHING] on Level 2 and 4. They got Skills (stealth, lore etc), on Level 1 All Tier-1 Spells, Level 3, All Tier-2 Spells, Level 5, All Tier-3 Spells. Let the Spell list grow into the Druid, the knowledge grow into the Druid. I.E: Instead of a "Grimoire" like the Wizard, the Druid can have "Growth"... "We are Groot" (speaking of which... no Tree Ent Spiritshift?) I suspect that Druids D&D have something similar "They grow closer to the land with every level"~ shouldn't that progressively represent itself instead of "Here ya go Druid, you grew a bit closer to the land so we're giving you this entire arsenal". It doesn't break immersion, but it does break Class/Party "theme"-ideas/builds. When I could make everyone in the Dracogen Inn into a Skeleton, I was super happy and laughed so hard that it was possible for me to do that (It was a build I chose to pursue, and it worked). With the Generalist Druid there is none of that. The problem here isn't customization on a second-hand level. I'm talking about how the Druid gains their spells and abilities, and the Priest as well. They get it all at once! So even if I customize my Druid along the way to be a better Spiritshifter, he/she is still going to get all spells and be a "Generalist Druid with a focus on Spiritshifting". Parallelly: A Wizard can be built into an "Illusionist" and customize their talents, level ups, gear etc. towards that build. A Druid becomes a Generalist, regardless, with specializations added on top of it. A bit of a repeat but: Example #1 Priest: - You pick Priest - A new window is opened, and you can see the different Dieties. Example #2 Druid: Concept Idea - You pick Druid - A new window is opened with 2 options - Natural Druid (who gains all spells on level up+talents) - Growth Druid (who grows into a build+talents)

Well... the land itself could be a "grimoire". The Growing Druid idea would pick up all spells as he/she goes along the road without any "memorization". When I say "like a Wizard" I mean the level up process, not Grimoire management.

My dream system is to pick an archetype (Fighter, Wizard, Druid, Monk etc.) at character creation, but as I level up I'll get a classless option as well as guiding my character depending on which road I take in-game. 1 Class with all skills on the board and available to anyone... So I could start a Fighter and then get "Grimoire Knowledge" across the game and become a Fighter with Magic abilites. Or even start as a Monk who goes down the path of a Druid~ but that's just talking about a system we won't see... unless Obsidian includes a 12th Class, a "Commoner" Class that gets points on everything every level~ a flat-out mix-n-match Class that the Player can build into whatever they want~

Well put. But, could it be possible to pick either "Generalist Druid" or "Build Druid"? Example (Priest or Paladin): - "Kits", both Priest and Paladin have "Schools". Technically, in the code when you pick "Priest", a new window is opened with the Dieties. - Parallelly: Pick Druid, open new window like above. - Pick between "Natural Druid" (Generalist) or "Growing Druid" (Build it yourself, like a Wizard/Chanter/Cipher)