Osvir

Metaphor: A construction site, and the workers are building a house. They've placed some doors in it, but they are creaking and the door knobs aren't screwed on entirely. Is it a test door, or is it an architectural flaw in the door frame? Do you build a new door and door frame, or do you oil the hinges and screw on the knobs tighter? What takes most time?

EDIT: This might belong in "General Discussion" I realize, I've gotten used to use "Beta Discussion" as a sort of "General Discussion" for thoughts both regarding the Beta, and Pillars of Eternity in general. And I think I'm doing it by mistake, if a Moderator or Admin thinks this should go somewhere else, feel free to move it. This is related to how one ability works in the Beta, but it is also a general look at the ability (Frenzy) /EDIT With some more thought about "Endurance" and a Solo Play viability, I got two ideas for making use of the "Downed" state as well as a bit of a personal disappointment in "Frenzy". So here goes: Talent: Second Wind or Similarly Inspired (Paralelly I can think of a couple of League of Legends abilities that could serve as good inspiration~ Yorick's Ultimate that brings back a character for a duration of time, Aatrox Passive or Zilean's Resurrect Ultimate) Mechanical: - The character activates the ability first, and can take no action after having activated it. If the character reaches 0 Endurance, they will get up again with 10% Endurance. Tactical: - Your Fighter, for instance, might be down at 1% Endurance, and you activate it. Essentially you get an extra 9% Endurance, but you will get "knocked out cold" briefly first, allowing enemy AI to target others. Activating it too soon will spend the duration/effect, and activating it too late would means "Knock out". Lore/Description: - I dunno~ Frenzy: Barbarian Ability - I was surprised that Frenzy simply makes Health and Endurance go into a questionmark (and healing Endurance appearantly too). Whilst it is interesting, it wasn't very exciting to be honest. I think it would be a much better technique and much more powerful if it made the Barbarian "invurnerable" to Endurance damage (the portrait VFX effect supports this as well) whilst it is activated, and instead takes only Health damage. In essence: Endurance goes down to 0, but the Barbarian can not be knocked out (all damage translated to Health damage). When the duration for "Frenzy" is over, the Barbarian has only 1 Endurance. It's a risky move, because you'll potentially lose a lot of Health, but during the time you'll practically be invurnerable. In my opinion, this type of ability usage of Frenzy supports the Barbarian Class. Wild and disregarding of one's own health "berserkering". In a fight where I used Frenzy when I had low Endurance (one hit KO low), my Barbarian still went down after 1 hit. I'm wondering if this is a bug or not, because appearantly it is supposed to (Frenzy, Off. Wiki) heal "a lot" of Endurance. -------------------------------- Though, in combination with each other (Second Wind and Frenzy) it could become quite OP. Whilst "Second Wind" is simply a mere proposal to make solo play potentially more viable, I really would enjoy Frenzy to function in a different way than it does, to support the "Barbarian", or "Berserker", archetype. What do you think?

Well, according to both the Official Wiki (Vitality) and Update #24 (Kickstarter), there should be ways to bring back your characters in a fight. Maybe it'll be items, a talent, or class related abilities, I haven't found any of it in the Beta though (Which makes me come to the conclusion that, a bit of a "duh" moment incoming, the Beta might be holding out on us). EDIT: My point is that, your Fighter gets knocked down, enemies re-target, they might take out one or two character, the Fighter gets up (because Knockdown is an ability), starts tanking again whilst other characters "Resurrects" the downed characters.

About AI... I kind of imagine it as... for instance Medreth's group, how would he and his cowled followers act? How would you act if you were the Player controlling Medreth's group, and an adventuring party came to attack you or betray you for Nyfre's sake? Turn it around, instead of thinking "I am the adventuring party fighting Medreth", think "I am Medreth fighting the adventuring party". What would be the smartest strategy? Go for the one who's blocking all damage? Or run around the engagement rules and ambush? I wouldn't mind seeing opponents looking like they are fleeing, but they are really just running back away from the engagement, and then rounding you (high-tailing it 180 degrees, before engaged, and then circling and coming in from behind). For Medreth's group, for instance, I could see one or two of the enemies running up towards the river, and then round the rock/bushes and come in from "behind" in an attempt to flank. Perhaps even have enemies "spawn" behind the church (to the left of the door) to come in from a surprise flank attack. If it is possible for Obsidian to make this kind of triggers or scripting, that'd be awesome. But I reckon it can be really difficult to get right, and could be exploited and/or very predictable. One has to consider "But what if I catch up to them mid-flank script, do they bug out? Disengage attack? Did it solve anything?" etc. etc.

But, as I was corrected in the other thread, I researched a bit. Both Update #24 and the Wiki (Vitality) and this is what I found under Endurance: "Some abilities allow to revive an unconscious party members during combat" These are not in the Backer Beta, or, again, I haven't checked out the abilities in the Beta enough? EDIT: Also, in light of my post above this one: Having a system where you can Res your characters in combat, one could look at it as the "in-combat tending" to the wounds. The character got 0 Endurance? Got knocked down to -1 Health. You stabilize them, get them back up into the fight with 20%-50% Endurance (depending on strength of ability). If they get knocked down again in the fight, -2 Health. Of course, it's not meant to be "You have 10/10 Endurance Bars before death!". Critical hits, or damage that goes through the Endurance bar, could hit the character really good, and your Health goes from -1 to -4 etc. etc.

I kind of look at Endurance/Health as a long-term -1, -2, -3, etc. Instead of going down to 0 Health, and then -1, -2, -3, etc. You go down to 0 Endurance, then you get a persistant -1. If you get 0 Endurance next fight, you have -2, etc. etc. EDIT: And to respond to the other thread: It makes sense that if you go down to 0 Endurance, you'd get -2, -3, -4 in Pillars of Eternity if you are a solo character. I understand now that you go down to 0 Endurance 1 fight, and your party members stabilizes you at -1. But if you have no party members, the clock would continue to tick -2, -3 etc.

Hm, I'm not quite sure I understand the question...?

You should try making an Orlan only party Hormalakh :D it's fantastic (tip: Selling all the BB Class equipment gives you some 5k to afford all the adventurers from the start)

It's from Update #24 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/328976

Would it be possible to change size of the Spiritshift "avatars" based on Race? I really only want to address Orlan and Aumaua, and it's a simple question: Could Orlan Spiritshifts be the smallest? And Aumaua Spiritshifts be the largest? Simply a question of 3D model size. EDIT: Really, the Aumaua doesn't have to be bothered, it's really only the Orlan I am curious about, if possible and not too time consuming to adjust/modify.

This is a great OP, and I'm probably going to come back to it time and time again. I read about half of it, skimmed some parts, and it is a very interesting take. Some of things you wrote in this section I've encountered as well. My character dies/knocked out even though he is very far away from the enemy, and scrolling through the combat log I see that he was defeated by disengagement attacks. This also happened to a Druid against Medreth's group, who was in range to melee attack a target, but instead of attacking the target, she was beaten to death by two adjacent targets by Disengagement Attacks. It was as if the Druid's target was a wee bit too far away, and the 2 other targets targeting her kept Disengage Attacking her whenever she tried to attack.

This makes most sense to me, albeit, I still think that 0 Endurance (Knocked out) isn't quite 0 Health (Death). Getting hit, your Endurance goes down, but also your Health at times. Taking Health damage would equal taking a cut, you're hit and bleeding. Or punched or whatever. And I don't think that 10-20 Health Damage is quite life-threatening wounds or damage (It was still green when I got knocked out).

I don't know if I'm understood correctly. My characters Endurance went to 0, but I also killed the Beetle. I'm sure this is a very rare occurance, but something I felt worthy of a discussion still. In a standard party, if Endurance went down to 0 on one character, the character would get up if the Beetle died. If the Beetle had survived with 1 HP, I feel "Game Over" makes much sense, but in the situation where the Beetle died, I felt it didn't. Why? Because the opponent was defeated, and my character still alive (according to the Health/Endurance Rules/Mechanics, had it been a standard party). Interesting & insightful input though :D thanks! @Hormalakh: I'm going to roll a full party in the released version, but I'm also trying various combinations in the Beta to see what works for me/what I enjoy (currently I'm digging the Orlans a lot) and what doesn't work for me/what I don't enjoy (in builds, party compositions and size of party). There isn't just one build, but several class combinations, with many different ways to play the game. And I'm also curious about "How strong is just 1 character on his own in this world?".

Yes yes. But "Endurance" != "Health" in Pillars of Eternity. I managed to defeat the Beetle, is what I'm saying, and I got knocked out to 0 Endurance. Not 0 Health. If I had had 2 characters, the one with 0 Endurance would get up and regenerate the lost Endurance (as is standard in the game) after the Beetle got defeated. What happened? - Attack animation and attack resolution, the beetle and my character went down at the same time. The beetle was killed, my character got "knocked out" (Not killed, and would've gotten up to regenerate if there'd been 1 more character in the party). I can understand game over if the Beetle had been alive, or if I have 6 party members all "knocked out" and the enemy is still alive. In this case, the enemy wasn't alive, but my character was, and it was still "Game Over".

Did you try both? Because Pale Elves can grow facial hair, but not Wood Elves.

With my stumbles in my Solo play, a thought popped up as I wrote that thread. Thoughts I had forgotten from way back when, and I'm unsure if I ever brought it up. When the "Stamina" (now "Endurance") system was introduced, I thought it was going to be a system that knocked you out, and whilst you're knocked out you'd regenerate some "Endurance" over time, and then get up and get into the fight again. Or even have your Priest have a specific "Endurance Resurrection Heal" to get them back into the fight, or a Fighter pulling the knocked down character up to join the fight. Admittedly, I haven't looked close enough to see if there are any abilities that can bring back maimed characters into combat, but if there are any I presume only the Priest has the ability to do so. Naturally, because I am a fountain of ideas: When you get knocked out, down to 0 Endurance, you first take a chunk of damage to your health, then being "maimed" for a while, and regenerating Endurance slowly up to maybe 20%. Whilst being "maimed", enemies would be able to target the maimed character, and all attacks would deal mostly Health damage. And some Grandia-esque influence: Whilst regenerating from maimed status (in-combat), the enemies hitting you at 15% Endurance, could stall the Character from getting up and keeping them out of the fight longer. It could introduce more usage for spells such as the Wizards teleport spell (switching targets), or shielding spells on the downed target. It becomes an objective to protect the downed character, and it gives the AI an incentive (a trigger) to go for your downed characters and focus you down (Just like Shevek is focusing down one enemy at a time in his Combat Vid). The conditions for getting your character up again would be: A) End the fight/Win B) Heal the maimed character C) Regeneration time for the downed character (for longer battles) Each time a character goes down to a maimed state they would take Health damage, perhaps even an injury, so when they do come back into the fight, they'd be at a weakened state for the duration of the combat. The reason to why I am, hm, pondering about this mechanic is because of two reasons, I didn't like that I lost the game by being "maimed" whilst I still questionably "won" the fight against the Beetle (See the "Solo Play" link), and I don't like it in a party battle that one of my characters are taken out of the strategy/tactic completely after being "maimed" and I have no way of bringing them back into it (They aren't dead after all, just maimed/hurt/tired). The perception of the combat and having one character going down gives me the feeling that the character temporarily died, because when they do they are pretty much dead during that encounter, taken out of the game briefly, and there is no in-combat interaction or strategy for when it happens. EDIT: Or using an item, "Smelling Salt" or similar. A Barbarian "kicking" the "maimed" character (costing some "Health" but gets them up at the very least) and so on.

I went to the inn, dropped the BB NPC's and went on to adventure out with a Solo character (Normal) in an attempt to see how far I could go. I didn't prepare well, didn't buy any potions or even rested, I just wanted to see how well a fresh BB Character would do against the world. Naturally, I didn't get too far, went down on the first beetle. Something interesting happened though, and am curious what others thing about it. Basically: We both went down at the same time (Beetle defeated+Endurance 0 on my character). If all Endurance go down to "0" on your characters, but you manage to take out the enemy with your final desperate blow (Or maybe you threw a final spell, and mid-air you get last-hitted, but the fireball blows everything up and theoretically you win) as you fall to the ground, should this be "Game Over"?

Haha, well, I have given my feedback on what I think could be improved upon, what I like and what I don't like about the gameplay, elements, UI, bug reports. I realize it's in need of optimization, but okay, I like where it is heading, the progression, the general game has taken since v333 and earlier. I am not saying "I like it as it is", I am saying "I like where it is headed". I suppose that's a more literal way of explaining myself. EDIT: A good chef tastes the food often to see if more spices or ingredients are needed Also, about constructive criticism and similar, I actually started reading on Wikipedia, this caught my attention: Conflict resolution: "Often, committed group members attempt to resolve group conflicts by actively communicating information about their conflicting motives or ideologies to the rest of the group (e.g., intentions; reasons for holding certain beliefs), and by engaging in collective negotiation."

What am I trying to justify? o.O "But then what was the point of all these changes to the combat then" I don't know! I like the combat! What should I say??

"I don't know" was my answer. I like the combat, and thus my answer will be colored off that. I like the changes, so... "what was the point of all the changes?" uuh... I don't know how to answer the question, is what I'm saying, because I like the combat. It could be improved upon, tweaked, balanced, AI improvements etc. Will it? I don't know, most games I play I feel the same about.

I think it is a useful and fun ability @Sarex: I don't know, it's a Backer Beta, a slice of the cake in a non-spoiler area, mid-game with little content. It is heavily taken out of context of the full and real game. Combat is more than just encounters between level 5-8.

Nope. I think that you can metagame/powerplay any game, there's almost always a loophole that the Player finds (I can't think of any Single Player game that does not become metagame-ish or powerplay-ish after understanding the system more), that the developer didn't think about. For instance, a famous example: - We have yet to create an AI that defeats the world champion in chess! Is it because this chess player is the master of metagame/powerplay, or because we simply can't make an AI good enough? EDIT: My point, though, is that I'm not 100% sure that we see is what we get. It's a work in progress after all, is combat fully implemented? And does this mean that no balance tweaks, AI adjustments, bugs and such will be in? Are the bugs features? Are those exploits features? That's what I mean, this is a beta, not a feature complete game. It's a loading screen, boiling water for the unfinished potatoes, a steak just put into the frying pan. You gotta let it cook a bit, it's raw.

It's Beta. EDIT: I'd prefer a functional Combat Log as well, and that some bugs are gone, because that's not what the game was pitched to be about <- that is a snide parallell. It's beta.

I'll summarize it in one sentence: melee engagement mechanic is here to harshly penalize player characters who are within the range of an enemy melee unit for any attempt to move away. Long version: 1) Melee engagement (I think we should use an acronym - how about MEE?) favors standing still over tactically repositioning party members during the course of an encounter. The funny part is that if you like mindless combat and standing still, your experience will be exactly the same with or without MEE. This is also the part the pro-MEE crowd seems to not understand: MEE removal won't change their experience in any way. Anyone who already chooses to stand still will never trigger an AoO anyway. 2) MEE works both ways and is proven to be exploitable by bouncing aggro between the party members. 3) MEE is not affected by action cooldown and has no internal cooldown. It just happens whenever the requirements are met. Which means MEE is the ultimate "it's magic" anti-movement tool. It's here only to prevent the combat from being more tactical via reactive repositioning. It serves no other purpose. 4) Combined with high movement speed that most enemies currently possess MEE promotes the abuse of various CC mechanics and strong openers in order to resolve fights as quickly as possible - ideally before enemies are able to get close. This in turn promotes metagaming and powerplaying over role-playing. Sensuki is going to post a thread with a more detailed analysis. 1) Rogues, Wizards, Barbarians all have tools to be more mobile. Fighters are also mobile by knocking down a target, thus breaking the Engagement and can re-position. I think there are other spells, talents, passives, that makes Disengagement less "immobile" and allows you to escape a Disengagement Attack without any problem. In essence: You react, you use skill, you re-position. 2) Sounds like an "Exploit/Abuse" a la "Potential Bug & Balance Fix". 3) There are reactive re-positioning, but perhaps there should be more reactive re-positioning incentives. 4) Nope. It's one way to deal with combat, it's one way to play the game. Shevek demonstrates in his Video that it promotes just as much Select All->Auto-Attack as well. The game promotes you to play like you want to play... who is it that finds these metagaming and powerplaying events? Does that not mean that... the one finding them is trying to metagame/powerplay?

I like the video, it does give lots of clarity. No ill intended Sensuki, but I only managed to listen to your Part 1 response for maybe 10-15 seconds (also Shevek, I think you should view his video as a "Forum Reply", but in video format instead of text format ) Shevek's video also gives me lots of insight: - Shevek likes to play in a different way, and he's fine with playing his way than the way I am playing the game. I enjoy the way I play the game (With more micro-management, more actions, abilities, spells, tactics and strategies). But, playing the game like I do requires more pausing, and perhaps that's the problem more so than the combat animations and the pace of combat... namely: The way I play the game is the problem I have with it xD it's all my fault! When I was testing, searching for bugs, I didn't consider the gameplay much (and it was way more difficult in earlier builds to get a sense of what was going on at all times). This build however, I am being taught the system (through the GUI/Ring helpers), and playability is stable and much more optimized. It's fun! :D but I wouldn't mind some more tweaking in visual clarity, and a bit more slower paced combat, and other minor tweaks to make readability better (Your Combat Log also seems to function properly, mine does not). Insight: - Other people likes to play differently. They'll have different builds, different characters, different gear, positioning, strategies, tactics. I feel the more hardcore tacticians want their playstyle to be supported more, and casuals are fine with a simplistic combat (as seen in your video). For tacticians it's a question about AI, I suppose, something that isn't entirely tuned at this point. I do think, seeing what's going on in the video, that Hard might be a bit too easy though (Again, AI tuning and balance). I like the Engagement Mechanic, but I think the Disengagement Mechanic should be tuned/tweaked a bit (For instance: A Fighter holding 2 enemies should be able to switch between those two, presumably adjacent targets, without getting Disengagement Attacks, because he's essentially engaged with both of them. But the enemy he chooses to not actively Target, should not suffer a Disengagement Attack from the Fighter, if the AI so would choose to go after another Party Member. This could help AI targeting, without having them stomped by the Players Disengagement Attacks). If my Barbarian is attacking and targeting a Beetle that is focusing on attacking my Fighter, then the Barbarian shouldn't get a Disengagement Attack when leaving that target (in my opinion). I made examples in another thread, about "Facing". That is a bit of a "grand" idea though, and I don't mind if it's not considered/developed, but I believe the Disengagement Mechanic could become more interesting with it. Some of the Beetles are thrash mobs, wolves, the wyverns, but Medreth's group shouldn't be a thrash mob (and you dealt with him and his cowled followers as if they were nothing), neither should the adventurer's party in Dyrford Crossing, or even the Crystal Eaters, or Kongrak. This is Beta. AI isn't tuned until much later, or might be more of a focus now that more people can play the Beta without the bugs of past builds. Or perhaps AI is really well done, but stuff like optimization (it's Beta), balance bugs (It's Beta), or AI bugs (it's Beta) or pathfinding bugs (it's Beta), stutter lag (it's Beta), or lag spikes (it's Beta), is so appearant (it is Beta) that it takes so much attention from the Player's enjoyment of the title (it's Beta). If Baldur's Gate was stuttering, laggy, AI behaved oddly at times, pathfinding, it wouldn't be very fun. In fact, playing Icewind Dale 2 on my machine is no fun at all, because first I need to get several mod fixes and patches to even make it work, and even then it can suffer massive slow-downs and graphical artifacts. It's because it's an old game, and it has bad compatability with my OS (Known issue). But when Icewind Dale 2 works properly without lag or slowdown, it's super fun! :D Parallely: When Pillars of Eternity has no slowdown or lag, it's going to be even more fun than it already is