IndiraLightfoot

I also find it bewildering and a bit heart-wrenching that OE doesn't even seem to wish that PoE, an alleged spiritual successor of the IE games, gets to be officially associated with combat xp/small-increment xp. I'm just so bewildered by this. Even if I will play it when it gets out, it certainly will feel unfinished, and this will hamper replayability for me a lot.

May I add that Josh & Co now has definitely closed the door on any xp system that dishes out xp in small increments? I've been away for a day, and guess what I found in my in-box when I got home, a message from a dev (from Sking who did the first post about xp, saying it's quest only. In a reply to my wondering whether we'll get to have a more old-school, combat xp, in the game too (or even if modders like me can help them add one before it ships, Sking says: "Once the game releases any mod you feel is necessary to heighten your experience, you should definitely do." Sent 22 August 2014 - 08:22 PM OE will have quest-xp only (their version of "objective xp"). It certainly saddens me to see a core part of the IE games getting ripped out - it's like PoE will be missing it's spleen or something. *Sigh*

I've been away for a day, and guess what I found in my in-box when I got home, a message from a dev (from Sking who did the first post about xp, saying it's quest only. In a reply to my wondering whether we'll get to have a more old-school, combat xp, in the game too (or even if modders like me can help them add one before it ships, Sking says: "Once the game releases any mod you feel is necessary to heighten your experience, you should definitely do." Sent 22 August 2014 - 08:22 PM What this means, folks, is that OE isn't budging. We will have quest-xp only (their version of "objective xp"), so there's nothing to see here. Scram! Go home! /Thread

I've been away for a day, and guess what I found in my in-box when I got home, a message from a dev (from Sking who did the first post about xp, saying it's quest only. In a reply to my wondering whether we'll get to have a more old-school, combat xp, in the game too (or even if modders like me can help them add one before it ships, Sking says: "Once the game releases any mod you feel is necessary to heighten your experience, you should definitely do." Sent 22 August 2014 - 08:22 PM What this means, folks, is that OE isn't budging. We will have quest-xp only (their version of "objective xp"), so there's nothing to see here. Scram! Go home! /Thread

I really hope it's in. I found stuff like that hilarious!

In this, we're like kindred spirits, heh! That's very much how I remember BG1 as well, I follow my heart, and go and do what I please, and now and then, but seldom, I got a notice of a level up. Those are indeed lovely memories. Actually, you are making a pretty interesting case for no-quest xp. I could certainly live with that, since everything I do in an RPG are interesting little objectives, but quests seem to pompous and righteous. I'm just adventuring and exploring, that's all.

Sure. As long as you stick to already tried recipes, you'll get a decently tasting cake out of it.

Here ya go!

Aeonsim: Perhaps I will do that. And yeah, your no-nonsense run-through of the obstacles ahead certainly feels realistic, including the part of it being slightly tougher than what I reckon it will be. Sarex: Although the number of steps are pretty few, and most of it is basic stuff, this is no walk in the park either. Tracking a number of possible routes and loops, and the number of decisions and constant tweaking you need to make, will at least make us break some sweat over it, that's for sure.

Namutree: You're supposed to be item hunting, mostly to craft something nice, like a folklore music box with an integrated coffee grinder.

aeonsim: Who knows? In a week or two, the tables may have turned? And it's you who're feeling that a central aspect of your PoE experience is missing? To me, it's pivotal that as many as possible get a PoE that they are satisified and come back to play over and over. Neither of these two sides are small fractions - it's thousands upon thousands of peeps. This should not and cannot be under-estimated, IMHO. I've heard quite a few from that side that you personally don't like claiming it's a kickstarter promise not kept. Is it that hard to put yourself in their shoes? I'm a strange breed, or hybrid, heh, as I've been on both sides of the fence, mind you. I was just as passionate about objective xp as you before, and now I'm passionate about making both sides happy. And believe me, you won't need three people and four months to do that work. They are already having the community go through strings to fix some texts and grammatical errors. Let a few dedicated xp-deepheads do it for them in Unity, for instance. All they need is one person supervising the balancing of it, and of course provide all hand-placed enemies with an xp-tag, where xp adjustments is done (entering a single numerical value). Heck, I'd do it myself. I'm a seasoned CRPG:er, well-versed in these systems, and I've been modding Obsidian games for years.

Great topic, and you on your way to solve one big headache right now in the game - being able to see what's going on when moving your party around especially in combat!

It's certainly tugging at my heart strings! I like its somber atmosphere, mostly in minor. And the combat music (although slightly repetitive and brazen/loud) is pretty great, choirs and all. I get Storm of the Zehir, some MotB , as well as a little F:NV, when listening to it, which is just music to my ears.

Cilantroll, except for the music part, and the inventory (the icons are far too small - and it could be revamped into something much better - I'd like paperdolls instead, where the equipment you place on a character is more apparent), I agree on all accounts. I'm actually amazed that so few have complained about the heads of the character/NPC models - they are indeed often plastic, weird, not very realistic, and sometimes outright ugly. Yes, you can tell that even when zoomed out on a 1980 something monitor.

I'll go out on a limb, and say a 3D open world sandbox version of a CRPG, but with deep story, plenty of great NPCs, with reactivity and faction agendas, but I can skip interaction of the depth that Ultima VII had - I'd much rather have an emphasis on plenty of fun and varied maps, endless exploration, as well as bestiaries filled to the brims.

Yeah. It's more work, but I figure, if you make both these two pretty big sides of the xp spectrum, as it were, happy by doing it, it's worth it, in good rep and sales as well as in general product satisfaction. How many backers alone, did they have? 71,000 or more? Imagine doing this, and making at least like 15,000 of them much more content about the game, and increasing its replayability for this groups, etc - it all translates to a fat wad of cash, far exceeding the resources they need to spend on it this autumn. If they insert a D&D inspired mock-up quickly in like three beta patches from now, the community will iron out those bugs faster than you can blink (just cf. D:OS development in open beta). I for one wouldn't use that mod - I want gaming experience to have the seal of official approval, as it were (unless a dev puts it in, like Josh did with his mod in F:NV, for instance.

I haven't read any of your posts, because I don't want to spoil the game. I have yet to go beyond the starting town, which I tried out during the alpha and the beta, and I really look forward to it! And now I can do that safe in the knowledge that there's yet another big update helping me get the most fun out of my beloved D:OS: Update V1.0.13021 augusti - Larian_Octaaf Hi everyone, This update mostly brings some overdue fixes on the code and balancing side of things, although there are some small improvements to UI as well. Several story and ganeplay fixes have also been incorporated. We've also done some re-balancing in the Dark Forrest area, which should hopefully make things a little more difficult. You can check out the full changelist below: V1.0.130: Code fixes: Leech only works in your turn Rotation corruption fix in savegames Unique object fix Allow resurrect skills when vision is blocked Added level names to localization Added combination stats to loca parser Added journal to loca parser Fixed loca parsing paths Localization of secrets fixed Fixed bleeding damage scale Next character in UI follows order of the character chain Localized level names in lobby No more invisible armour after character creation No more double dialog log line after load Ability, talent and stat tooltips in character creation take level into account Fixed combinations with skulls, bones and sinew Fixed henchman rotation in henchman ui Updated Iggy, support for a fallback font Fixed faulty dialog cleanup Fixed bad savegame crash, now throws an error Updated Troll and deamon voices to be more brutal Tuned texture streamer to fix some objects using a lower resolution than needed Texture streamer is more responsive now Fixed players not getting the kick or refused connection message Fixed character "walking through walls" when experiencing connection problems Mac specific: Fixed story random problem Fixed memory crash OpenGL experimental mode Fixes to OpenGL renderer Using ‘Terminal’ app you can now enable following tweaks: 1) Precise mouse tracking for low-end systems and for ‘touch’ to click functionality: defaults write com.larian.dos DelayMouseClicks -bool true 2) Completely disable any ‘bleeding’ notification centre popups: defaults write com.larian.dos DisablePopups -bool true 3) Enable performance GL tweaks: defaults write com.larian.dos EnableExperimentalGL -bool true User Interface: Added sorting in trade UI No graphical artefact in scrolling of saveload, options, ... Player portraits chain fix Panel position reset fix Improved long text visibility in dropdown menus Enlarged container UI limit Story and gameplay: Made summons a bit less interesting for default targeting (AI) Totem should not debuff specializations Clarified error message during character creation when you don't have required skills or talents Fixed end dialog on some dialogs Added sound effect to burning ship Fixed quest lose condition of burning ship Removed burning status when ship is destroyed Fixed the gossip keyword Fixed philospohy of death, book and quest Fixed Snorri tomb icon Moved William water well, he got back at the wrong location Fixed the prison key, it used to lie on the ground but now it's in the guards pocket Hiberheim watcher synchronizaiton fix, the trap is always in sync now Lawrence and Nadia dialog fix Removed Free personality, changed Spirit to Free Spirit personality These are all combat fixes, also most DF characters have been remade with new root templates because the level override didn't always work turn ramon's chest indestructable Note: for story and gameplay fixes, it is possible that a new game has to be started since not all story fixes can be pushed into existing savegames.

Well, that video they just released about this awful shooting, it says it all. The police shot Powell in broad daylight for being cheeky - execution style- emptying mags. In my book, that's murder, nothing else! I hope they get brought to justice and get what they deserve, all of them present there. On the police and the US, specifically; let's just say that police forces all over the world, even in the richest and presumably most civilised countries, kill innocent people, and exercise excessive violence far too often. It's nothing unique to the US. However, the American police seems to be better armed than most other police forces around the world. Policemen and policewomen with the latest military grade equipment is a lethal combination.

I have taken this great post as a stepping stone for us towards a solution for that hotly debated xp system issue. This thread is all about the proposed idea by redneckdevil, nothing else. If you just want to pour your heart out about which xp system you prefer, such as kill xp or quest-xp-only, please do that elsewhere, in the appropriate threads. There are three of them running as of now, so there's plenty of space for venting your xp preferences and frustrations! Here, we will stay true to our topic, namely the apparent solution to this divide in the PoE community. Make the two xp systems compatible! I will forcefully narrow down this topic even more by telling you which two xp systems that are up for a potential toggle in PoE: 1) The one that Josh & Co has been tinkering on - it's there vision for the game, so it's in by definition. Atm in the beta, and has been clearly stated by the dev Sking - this is quest xp only, including a few xp progress points within the quest, if its long enough. Note! This is not a thread for discussing the merits of that system, or whether it's an objective xp system, or if it lives up to any perceived promises from Obsidian, etc. 2) The xp system that was in BG2: kill xp, xp for disarming traps, xp for opening locks, xp for a few dialogue choices and simple deeds. This is a system that Josh & Co are very familiar with, and it is one that they are able to insert into a game with hand-placed enemies within the time that is left before the game is released. Obviously, it won't be an exact copy of AD&D or D&D 3.0/3.5 (or even 4), but it will have all of its basic elements and structures, yes even xp tables that the devs can tweak, and so forth. If you just like the idea, and have nothing to contribute as far as the details go, and exactly how it will be implemented for all difficulty levels, just pop in and write "+1" or "agreed", I suppose, but I'd rather see that you put your little grey cells to good use and expand and/or elaborate upon it. Have a nice discussion. Hopefully, the devs have already considered this solution! I mean, they did listen and made us a toggable UI after the very heated debate about that: one minimalistic and one classic. I hope we get to see that again: one minimalistic and one classic/old-school xp-system as a toggle for a peaceful co-existence between at least those two xp system factions in our community. Have a fun discussion!

I'm happy to oblige: A relevant quote from Josh, on where he and Tim stand on this is on the bottom of page 14 in this thread: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67140-experience-point-system-in-the-beta-and-onwards/page-14 While you are there, feel free to cast your vote in the poll there as well.

You do bring up a good point, which to me is the strength of objective XP over other forms. I don't see how kill XP is a good solution to the problem you're presenting, it seems to me that comprehensive objective-based XP is the best option here. Any major overhaul of the XP system may at this point be out of bounds, and I admit that I'd rather see it stay as it is now (once the bugs are worked out) then see combat XP needlessly thrown in, but it seems that the moderate and reasonable solution to all this is comprehensive objective XP. I know that you want to seep in the blood of your enemi -- err -- I mean seep in the culture and history, and good on you. After all, the xvarts shot first, I was merely defending myself. Objective-based XP affords everyone the opportunity to progress, whether they want to explore a wilderness area peacefully, by massacring all its inhabitants, or myriad possibilities in between. The exploration of a ruins could be an objective; heck some objectives could easily be centered on combat such as clearing a road or area of dangerous monsters while some could be more focused on tasks which must be accomplished diplomatically such as easing tensions between two populations of kith without resorting to slaughtering one side or the other. If objectives were that varied, that recurring, and that well-blended into the gameplay, I'd be more than satisfied with objective xp. As you probably already know by now, I was until recently a proponent of this new and fresh objective xp system that was coming our way, courtesy of Obsidian - one of my favourite game dev companies. However, seven hours into this beta build (full of bugs, of course, including quest-related ones), playing in my quirky style, as always, I have come to the realisation that it simply doesn't work for me. It's not enough in a game that isn't as ambitious RPG- and dialogue-wise as I hope and believe T:ToN will be. The implemented objective xp in PoE, as it stands, is nothing but quest xp, with the rest of the xp system gutted out (traps, diplomacy, locks, combat, you name it). Apparently, I seem to need a more constant flow of gameplay rewards. It's become a habit, and my CRP-ing's almost become hardwired that way - it was weird to discover it like this, so abruptly, but there you have it. Will I enjoy the game anyway? Hopefully. Will I replay it as much as I did in BG or NWN2, for instance. I really doubt it, as long as the objective xp isn't designed in that varied and more natural and regular fashion you just delineated.

GreyFox: It sounds fine, I guess, unless you're a poor completionist like me, who also has a knack for disregarding quest-lines and weaving in and out of maps and places, often with the curiously mixed purpose of exploring for fun (and OCD), seeping in culture and history, as well as seeking out combat challenges. If I trigger a quest, it will by mistake, or in passing, and I will most likely break the precious quest order, and receive no xp at all. Perhaps I can finish the entire game with a level 1 party. How's that for a path of the damned?

I beg to differ. What's "degenerate gameplay" or "real roleplaying" is in the eye of the beholder! *Ba-da-dish!*

So much to kill, but sadly so little explicit meat!

A dev has actually posted about the xp system! Sking, on 21 Aug 2014 - 01:31 AM, said: http://forums.obsidi...tice/?p=1486643 IndiraLightfoot, on 21 Aug 2014 - 6:50 PM, said: Alright folks, well, this certainly answers that: The quest-only xp system is intended this way (perhaps with some long quest being divided into one or two xp chunks before the final xp lump)! So, no mistake, this is what they meant by objective/challenge xp, it seems. I'll be darned. It's a bit like the quest xp system of M&M X, but without the rest of its xp system: without the teachers, and without those progressing skills from rather fast levels, IIRC.