IndiraLightfoot

New thread on this issue is up in Combat and Mechanics-subforum, plus a sketchy poll! http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67140-experience-point-system-in-the-beta-and-onwards/

It wasn't too late, but my categories are pretty horrific. Perhaps they'll at least reflect some trend in some rough fashion.

That's just it - the system was sold to me on the idea of being able to play the way you want and overcome obstacles (and I assumed go exploring for fun). As it sounds from the beta testers, it's more like doing what you're told (which I believe the kill-xp crowd were presciently complaining about). That's just it - the system was sold to me on the idea of being able to play the way you want and overcome obstacles (and I assumed go exploring for fun). As it sounds from the beta testers, it's more like doing what you're told (which I believe the kill-xp crowd were presciently complaining about). Indeed. Let's get right to the core of things: experience points is a numerical abstraction, which reflects that your player character has seen stuff, learnt new things and evolved. If the game rewards five RL hours (26h in-game) of exploring, fighting, sneaking, talking, everything, with zero experience points, then they don't serve any function at all. Then, either remove them entirely (which would crush the entire system PoE is built on), or redo stuff entirely - either by re-introducing kill xp or make a kill-xp-like system (per encounter, per obstacle, per sneak, per discovery, per smart convo pick, per sneeze). I'm sorry if I have plenty of quotes from myself. Like Sarex said: Most of them ought to be from Stun. But hopefully, this small and recent selection reflects our discussion about the xp system flaws in the beta anyways.

I really don't want to be right, I want this game to be great. I have such high hopes for Obs future in making these games. From reading everyone's comments on the bb, the consensus is that everyone liked everything except the gameplay and it's giving me that gut wrenching feeling. I know this is a beta and far from being finished, but I also feel that Obs took an unnecessary gamble with their "make or break it" game. They could have used the same formula as the IE games, used their own story and setting and once they had the "foundation" game out, they could have branched out in the direction they wanted. I really hope it's just me and that I'm worrying for nothing.

I have also played the beta for a few hours and I most definitely disagree with that last part, and some of the first part. I was exploring. I found a dungeon. I entered it. I came to a room FULL of Shades. It took every single tactical bone in my body to come out victorious. I literally felt fatigued when it was over. And what did I get for it? Nada. It's like the fight didn't count. It's like the game didn't intend for me to kill them. It's like the game laughed at me and said: lol Sucker! here, have a fist full of NOTHING for all your hard work hahahahahaha. Side note about loot drops: There's a small group of Hags guarding the entrance to that dungeon. this encounter did reward you...sorta - with crafting supplies. If you can call crafting supplies loot. I haven't crafted anything in this beta yet so I have no idea how "valuable" 4 pieces of Bark are going to be. I have to agree with Stun. I was okay with objective xp, but I was assuming "objective" wasn't the same as quest. I just fought like, six lions at once and felt the battle was fairly challenging. I would have liked some xp or something; instead I got barely anything. I thought objective xp would have things like, "Cleared the road for travel +100 Xp", but so far at least objective xp has been the same as quest xp, and I feel it makes combat feel a bit more stale than it could have been. If this is how they're gonna do objective xp; I'd rather kill xp come back. These are but a few of the discussions, views and concerns since the beta went live, and people have been playing it. Seeing that that xp mechancis was running its course, I made a new one in preparation for the ensuing exciting discussion! Oh, and don't forget to cast your vote(s) in that neat multi-choice poll! P.S. This is also a continuation of Immortalis' thread: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66528-experience-point-mechanics-fighting-enemies/page-28

That's just it - the system was sold to me on the idea of being able to play the way you want and overcome obstacles (and I assumed go exploring for fun). As it sounds from the beta testers, it's more like doing what you're told (which I believe the kill-xp crowd were presciently complaining about). Indeed. Let's get right to the core of things: experience points is a numerical abstraction, which reflects that your player character has seen stuff, learnt new things and evolved. If the game rewards five RL hours (26h in-game) of exploring, fighting, sneaking, talking, everything, with zero experience points, then they don't serve any function at all. Then, either remove them entirely (which would crush the entire system PoE is built on), or redo stuff entirely - either by re-introducing kill xp or make a kill-xp-like system (per encounter, per obstacle, per sneak, per discovery, per smart convo pick, per sneeze).

Gfted1: We are your guinea pigs, and we are happy to serve!

I have extremely high hopes for T:ToN, and for the very same reasons as you! Some of my all-time favourite devs are working on it. The same goes for PoE too, so perhaps we get two kinds of CRPGs, both which are excellent in their own right?

Silent Winter, you raise a very valid point. The new power munchkin would take those railroads and become a tycoon in no time.

Yes... Break free of your shackles, let the XP flow through you. Give into your feelings, you know it is true. No one can resist the POWER of the dark side. Hehehehehehehe Epic!

BrokenMask: I really understand where you coming from, having argued all those points for years, it seems, literally. The big question is: How to make a computer RPG with an entire party (already more game-y, and less RPG-y) feel rewarding enough without kill xp? And as it seems, it will take a very clever per-obstacle solution - per encounter (which actually may mean one single baddie - in such cases pure kill xp). Question #2: (which I realized today): Is it worth it? Is it better? This isn't Dishonored, after all. I have no magic solutions, but I do know that kill xp worked and that per encounter probably could work too.

Wouldn't the dropped loot from the bodies be the reward? Unfortunately not - it's not even close, I'm afraid. See the appropriate thread where the discussion is alive and kicking right now.

You and me both, buddy! I almost never like crafting in games either. It feels convoluted and chore-like.

Some of that stuff will be used for crafting. I can't spoil everything for you, but after five hours of combat, my inventory (the stash was broken) was full of animal and monster parts that screamed crafting. And the lady selling potions gave a higher price for such stuff too, IIRC.

Anything really that rewards dealing with trash mobs. Or, rather, basically anything that wants to kill you and that's in-between you, the quest givers and the quest objects. Some of these enemies are certainly better than just filler, heh!

I really did feel that the gameplay and the combat were fun! I liked the rather quick pace of it all (but that's for another thread).

Character development, regardless of exploration and a certain player's order of things, needs to take place in much smaller xp increments, and as such, I feel pretty firmly now that quest xp is out of the equation. It's all a matter of making a sensitive and fine-mesh objective/per encounter xp system.

A small cursor that doesn't stand out enough benefits no player. It's easy to lose track of. At least, OE needs to give those of us that won't better clarity such an option, IMHO.

Sarex: Heh! I wonder if OE needs to craft a special backer badge for Stun, you and a few others! It could be in electrum, a plaque saying "I told you so".

I reckon that's a pretty neat idea! Thanks for sharing.

I like most of the spell effects so far, and I can tell that wizard saved our sorry arses several times. In my party, he and his smirky smile were the most valuable companions today. Here, however, is one spell effect I'm not to happy about: -Consecrated ground has an effect that is too bright/stark and it's lasting too long.

The worst thing about my example is this: As it stands now, the game punishes exploration and individual choices, and rewards extreme quest railroading. Not. Fun. At. All.

Now I remember yet another weird thing in combat. My priest was casting Consecrated Ground, but somehow that spell icon froze, and whatever I did, all the party members kept auto-fighting, and that spell casting icon didn't go away. I tried ESC and several other options, but nothing worked. Other companions couldn't be controlled. I was lucky it was an easy fight against a single guard. After combat was over, all characters were controllable again.

Sensuki: Yep! I unticked that box as soon as I saw it.

Indeed. Per encounter feels like a bare minimum right now, after those five hours and no character development at all to show for it. I reckon that's a record among all of my CRPGs I've played.